Looking For Input On Potential New Fantasy Product

[Beast]

then the Question is

How many different Hero System_________________ Complete books does DOJ want to field?
We have Supers,Fantasy is up next

Does DOJ do a Pulp Hero complete,Star Hero Complete,Danger International Complete to just cover the major genres also?

 

Also ,can a high fantasy setting be done in 74 pages(240 page book and choosing either high or low fantasy I figured on high) 

Well, if the goal is to try to draw a new generation of gamers into HERO gaming, the question becomes, Which approach will accomplish that better? A separate, "reasonably-sized" core rule book, with successive books dealing only with gaming in each genre? Or an "all in one" book for each genre, containing all the core rules tailored for that genre?

 

The anecdotal evidence seems to suggest that, for people who are looking to pick up a book for a new game, they want everything they need to play to be in that book. Discovering they have a book with rules but no game guides or examples, or game guides and examples but no rules, may disincline them to buy the additional book which has what they expected to get from their first purchase.

[Lord Liaden]

then the Question is

How many different Hero System_________________ Complete books does DOJ want to field?

We have Supers,Fantasy is up next

Does DOJ do a Pulp Hero complete,Star Hero Complete,Danger International Complete to just cover the major genres also?

 

Also ,can a high fantasy setting be done in 74 pages(240 page book and choosing either high or low fantasy I figured on high) 

 

Again, very pertinent questions.

 

I know that Hero Games management has stated repeatedly, for many years, that Champions is the company's top selling line, with Fantasy second. The impression I've gotten from Jason's remarks is that they're not looking beyond doing a new Fantasy core book at this stage. They really need to keep an eye on the bottom line, so sales of what they publish will suggest whether to move forward, and what with.

 

FWIW I believe that almost any fantasy setting can be introduced in 74 pages. If FH Complete followed my suggestion (which I don't have the ego to just assume the company will) of concentrating on a local area in the core book, with later expansions as demand dictates, I think it would be very doable in that space.

[Jhaierr]

I am really curious if Jason (and thus Hero Games) has any news or further thoughts about this potential product?

[Pegasus40218]

...

I know that Hero Games management has stated repeatedly, for many years, that Champions is the company's top selling line, with Fantasy second. The impression I've gotten from Jason's remarks is that they're not looking beyond doing a new Fantasy core book at this stage. They really need to keep an eye on the bottom line, so sales of what they publish will suggest whether to move forward, and what with.

...

 

That's disappointing for someone like me to hear.  As a player and GM, I'm personally not a fan of the Super Hero genre.  I have been a fan of fantasy for more than 30 years.  Conceptually, I really like the flexibility of the HERO System...the fact that a character isn't locked into some artificial forced progression of skills.  Character development over the course of a campaign can be more organic -- the character can develop the skills that they find they need and use, rather than simply having to live with a limited set of options...But, it sounds like we (fans of the fantasy genre) can only expect limited support as far as product goes.

[Old Man]

It's a vicious cycle.  Fantasy is only the second best selling line, so it gets less support, so it remains the second best selling line.  Deeply irritating for those of us who prefer FH over Champions and have been playing it for decades.

 

Still, it's not my money that's being spent on producing this.  If we can get a standalone FH book I'll be happy.

[Lord Liaden]

To be fair, since DOJ took over Hero Games, support for fantasy has been pretty good. Under Fifth Edition we got the FH genre book; the animals and creatures in the HERO System Bestiary; the fantasy-specific Monsters, Minions, And Marauders bestiary, as well as the two Asian Bestiary(s) and the Book Of Dragons; two Fantasy HERO Grimoire(s) of spells; a book of Enchanted Items; four setting books, all quite different; three adventures in Champions Battlegrounds; and Nobles, Knights, And Necromancers with enemy NPCs. And of course the Urban Fantasy HERO subgenre book.

 

For 6E we got a new genre book, a new Bestiary collecting fantasy creatures from all the other sources, and a Grimoire doing the same for magic spells. Then there are the PDF mini-books Steve Long has been putting in the Online Store recently, with collections of undead and demons, and new spells; and his Acquitaine expansion for the Tuala Morn setting.

 

And all that's not counting the several HERO System fantasy settings and adventures from other licensed publishers.

[Lucius]

then the Question is

How many different Hero System_________________ Complete books does DOJ want to field?

We have Supers,Fantasy is up next

Does DOJ do a Pulp Hero complete,Star Hero Complete,Danger International Complete to just cover the major genres also?

 

Also ,can a high fantasy setting be done in 74 pages(240 page book and choosing either high or low fantasy I figured on high) 

 

Well, here's my take on it:

 

What kind of gamers play these given genres? and, what kind of behavior can we expect from them?

 

Disclaimer: this is purely anecdotal, based on my own experience. If anyone can cite a scientific survey on the subject I'd love to see it.

 

Fantasy:

The answer is, "the great majority," that is, most people playing roleplaying games either do play or have played fantasy.

A large portion of this group is interested ONLY in fantasy. They might buy a book allowing them to play fantasy by Hero rules. They might, just possibly (doubtful) buy a set of two or three books, as they have to do with D&D. They will NOT buy a book for fantasy and then a superhero book to allow them to play.

 

Once they have "bought in" they might be persuaded to buy more product; if they like the fantasy experience they might for example buy the superhero book if it gives them more options they can use for fantasy, and of course they'll invest in bestiaries, grimoires, etc. But they need to play "out of the box" with that initial purchase or they won't MAKE that initial purchase.

 

Superhero:

Mostly, people who play fantasy, but also, some comic book fans.

This is and always has been Hero's "core demographic" despite the existence of plenty of people like myself who use Hero mostly or only for fantasy. It definitely contains some people  who are the obverse of the fantasy fans I described above, who would never buy a fantasy book and would invest in a system for supers only if it's "plug and play."

 

In my opinion, this group NEEDS a system like Hero in a way that no other group does. ANYTHING is possible in a comic book, so the system needs to be robust and generic to do justice to the source materiel.

 

Horror/"Pseudo-Horror":

An example of horror is Call of Cthullhu. An example of what I'm calling pseudo-horror is the World of Darkness line of games. Maybe "Urban Fantasy" would be a better term. Like Superheroes in that for some of them, this is all they play. The owner of my Friendly Local Game Store claims World of Darkness is probably drawing in "true new" people (people who have never before played ANY form of role playing) at a higher rate than any other system.

 

Pulp/Science Fiction/Modern Action-Adventure/Postapocolyptic/Bunnies & Burrows/etc

I'm lumping these together not because I think someone who's into one of them is into all (I certainly don't think that)  but because all these groups share an important trait in common: they are  a SUBSET of the first group, fantasy gamers. Okay, some of them are actually from the second or third group. Okay, I'll admit that maybe there's a couple of people in any given one of these groups who ONLY play that genre, but 20 pulp fans - or even 100 pulp fans - on the whole planet, don't constitute a viable market. 

 

For these people, a book that adapts hero to their genre but does not include the core rules is not necessarily a problem, especially if there is a fantasy book available that includes the basic rules. They probably ALREADY OWN that book. If not, they won't necessarily resent getting it because they ALSO play fantasy. Heck, they may not mind getting a superhero book.

 

 

Lucius Alexander

 

No plans to produce a role playing game for palindromedaries

[SuperPheemy]

I really believe that a new edition of Fantasy HERO needs a small setting, like say a County or Fiefdom from the Turakian Age to provide context for the game presented in the book.  Something geared towards new players that is friendly to off-the-shelf play.  Even for those groups that enjoy playing in their own world-creations, a small setting fragment can assist with direction on how to use the HERO system when designing campaigns.  The small setting focus can also be worked into the introductory scenarios, and GMs and groups can easily expand on them.  This could also become a selling point for a revised Turakian Age release.

 

Heck.  I'd even like to see an update of Valdorian Age, Atlantean Age and Tuala Morn, even if only as .pdf supplements

[Michael Hopcroft]

If the FH Complete rules do not have any particularly radical changes, it can still recommend and cross-refer to the Grimoire. There's no reason to stop selling the book, especially if you can do POD the way a couple of other Hero books have appeared on Drive-Thru.

 

But the main problem I see with Fantasy Hero being done as a stand-alone game is the temptation to present a "true way" -- or, at the very least, to give the reader little incentive to explore other ways to do magic in particular. Admittedly it will confuse a new player or GM to have to choose between nine to twelve different and incompatible ways magic is purchased, That would possibly even be a signficant obstacle for adoption of the ruleset. But "you can, if you like, do it differently" is a vital concept to Hero -- in many ways the essence of what the game is all about. So if there is some way to convey that without going into excessive detail, or being too confusing for the new player we are trying to reach, that might enable a "best of both worlds" situation. And perhaps a set of magic systems for different sorts of campaigns would be a worthwhile PDF/POD product in the future.

[Chris Goodwin]

But the main problem I see with Fantasy Hero being done as a stand-alone game is the temptation to present a "true way" -- or, at the very least, to give the reader little incentive to explore other ways to do magic in particular. Admittedly it will confuse a new player or GM to have to choose between nine to twelve different and incompatible ways magic is purchased, That would possibly even be a signficant obstacle for adoption of the ruleset. But "you can, if you like, do it differently" is a vital concept to Hero -- in many ways the essence of what the game is all about. So if there is some way to convey that without going into excessive detail, or being too confusing for the new player we are trying to reach, that might enable a "best of both worlds" situation. And perhaps a set of magic systems for different sorts of campaigns would be a worthwhile PDF/POD product in the future.

 

I think this is not a problem.  HERO is well known for causing "options paralysis" in players not used to everything it can do.  For a system that can do everything, it's better to present a smaller portion of it that can be expanded upon later.  

[Narf the Mouse]

As a GM, and knowing the players I play with, (and have played with), a complete fantasy RPG book should have:

 

1) Shortness.

2) How to create a character.

3) Archetypes.

4) Equipment (In order: weapons, armour, enchantments, special materials, magic items, supplies)

5) Monsters.

6) How to do combat.

7) A complete adventure.

8) Special abilities (inc. spells)

9) Races.

10) Skills.

11) NPCs.

 

In that general order. As a general guideline, if it's not needed to play a game right now, keep it out.

 

Edit: I'm not saying this is good or bad, just what I've seen.

[bigbywolfe]

As a GM, and knowing the players I play with, (and have played with), a complete fantasy RPG book should have:

 

1) Shortness.

 

So include halflings, gnomes, and dwarves.  Check.

[Narf the Mouse]

So include halflings, gnomes, and dwarves.  Check.

I don't even remember why I posted that. So it's definitely that, and not the number of pages.

[Spence]

Well, here's my take on it:

 

What kind of gamers play these given genres? and, what kind of behavior can we expect from them?

 

Disclaimer: this is purely anecdotal, based on my own experience. If anyone can cite a scientific survey on the subject I'd love to see it.

 

Fantasy:

The answer is, "the great majority," that is, most people playing roleplaying games either do play or have played fantasy.

A large portion of this group is interested ONLY in fantasy. They might buy a book allowing them to play fantasy by Hero rules. They might, just possibly (doubtful) buy a set of two or three books, as they have to do with D&D. They will NOT buy a book for fantasy and then a superhero book to allow them to play.

 

Once they have "bought in" they might be persuaded to buy more product; if they like the fantasy experience they might for example buy the superhero book if it gives them more options they can use for fantasy, and of course they'll invest in bestiaries, grimoires, etc. But they need to play "out of the box" with that initial purchase or they won't MAKE that initial purchase.

 

Superhero:

Mostly, people who play fantasy, but also, some comic book fans.

This is and always has been Hero's "core demographic" despite the existence of plenty of people like myself who use Hero mostly or only for fantasy. It definitely contains some people  who are the obverse of the fantasy fans I described above, who would never buy a fantasy book and would invest in a system for supers only if it's "plug and play."

 

In my opinion, this group NEEDS a system like Hero in a way that no other group does. ANYTHING is possible in a comic book, so the system needs to be robust and generic to do justice to the source materiel.

 

Horror/"Pseudo-Horror":

An example of horror is Call of Cthullhu. An example of what I'm calling pseudo-horror is the World of Darkness line of games. Maybe "Urban Fantasy" would be a better term. Like Superheroes in that for some of them, this is all they play. The owner of my Friendly Local Game Store claims World of Darkness is probably drawing in "true new" people (people who have never before played ANY form of role playing) at a higher rate than any other system.

 

Pulp/Science Fiction/Modern Action-Adventure/Postapocolyptic/Bunnies & Burrows/etc

I'm lumping these together not because I think someone who's into one of them is into all (I certainly don't think that)  but because all these groups share an important trait in common: they are  a SUBSET of the first group, fantasy gamers. Okay, some of them are actually from the second or third group. Okay, I'll admit that maybe there's a couple of people in any given one of these groups who ONLY play that genre, but 20 pulp fans - or even 100 pulp fans - on the whole planet, don't constitute a viable market. 

 

For these people, a book that adapts hero to their genre but does not include the core rules is not necessarily a problem, especially if there is a fantasy book available that includes the basic rules. They probably ALREADY OWN that book. If not, they won't necessarily resent getting it because they ALSO play fantasy. Heck, they may not mind getting a superhero book.

 

 

Lucius Alexander

 

No plans to produce a role playing game for palindromedaries

 

Back after a long time away...

 

As for your post, yes and well put. 

 

Very well stated.  I personally prefer Pulp, then Supers, then Fantasy with all else a distant 4^th.   But to be truthful, in my experience there are more Fantasy Players than any other genre.   Currently the top three games in my area are D&D, Pathfinder and 13^th Age.

[Spence]

If the FH Complete rules do not have any particularly radical changes, it can still recommend and cross-refer to the Grimoire. There's no reason to stop selling the book, especially if you can do POD the way a couple of other Hero books have appeared on Drive-Thru.

 

But the main problem I see with Fantasy Hero being done as a stand-alone game is the temptation to present a "true way" -- or, at the very least, to give the reader little incentive to explore other ways to do magic in particular. Admittedly it will confuse a new player or GM to have to choose between nine to twelve different and incompatible ways magic is purchased, That would possibly even be a signficant obstacle for adoption of the ruleset. But "you can, if you like, do it differently" is a vital concept to Hero -- in many ways the essence of what the game is all about. So if there is some way to convey that without going into excessive detail, or being too confusing for the new player we are trying to reach, that might enable a "best of both worlds" situation. And perhaps a set of magic systems for different sorts of campaigns would be a worthwhile PDF/POD product in the future.

 

 

I think this is not a problem.  HERO is well known for causing "options paralysis" in players not used to everything it can do.  For a system that can do everything, it's better to present a smaller portion of it that can be expanded upon later.  

 

I think the problem is that we are thinking that Fantasy Hero would be HERO  wrapped in a fantasy theme.

 

I have always thought of Hero (or at least as long as I realized it) as the meta-rules and the actual game as an RPG based on the meta-rules.   All the other systems have their unpublished source document that guides and balances the game they put in the book.  When D&D puts out an add on book with new classes, those classes are balanced using the source document.  

 

HERO as a systems is different because they just published the actual source material so that you could build your own RPG that was balanced. 

 

Is this concept overly simplified?  Absolutely.  But not without merit.

 

Back to FH.  Pretty much all of the players I know do not want to have to build not only their spells or to design how magic works.    They want to play the game. 

 

When Michael H said “But "you can, if you like, do it differently" is a vital concept to Hero -- in many ways the essence of what the game is all about.” He is absolutely correct about HERO.   That is its core.  But we are not talking about HERO.  We Are talking about Fantasy Hero the sword swinging spell slinging monster kill’in treasure stealing adventure game.  Because face it.  That is what most players start out wanting.  First person shooter zap zap zap. 

 

I think that is exactly what FH should be.  It should include the rules on how to play.  Templates, skill packages, pre-built equipment and a complete usable out of the box spell system.    All this should be presented with only the final costs.  In Character Points or Gold as needed.  Beyond attributes, skills and equipment, the initial “abilities” should be prebuilt ‘canned’ just like Talents were.   All this in Part 1 of the book.  And a GM and players should be able to play complete adventures using only Part 1.  Part 2 would be what we normally think of as the powers section and the core concepts of HERO including how to build anything.  Theories of magic systems and such.    And all of the spells and abilities presented in Part 1 would be relisted with full HERO annotation so they can see how it was done. 

 

A book like that would only need to introduce magic and such  to an equivalent of maybe 5^th level, because once they are rolling they will, as all gamers do, want to tweak things. 

 

And surprise! Unlike most games, HERO is designed to tweak. 

 

And once that light goes on, we have all seen that most gamers don’t turn back.

[Lord Liaden]

I introduce this point purely as an issue to keep in mind during this discussion: All of Hero Games's official fantasy settings have included "tweaks" to the basic HERO System intended to better emulate a particular subgenre's style of play. Characteristic baselines and maximums are shifted. How equipment is paid for differs. Magic spells have very different default assumptions in how they're designed and bought. Some Skills or Powers are excluded or modified, and genre-appropriate prebuilt abilities are included.

[Spence]

I introduce this point purely as an issue to keep in mind during this discussion: All of Hero Games's official fantasy settings have included "tweaks" to the basic HERO System intended to better emulate a particular subgenre's style of play. Characteristic baselines and maximums are shifted. How equipment is paid for differs. Magic spells have very different default assumptions in how they're designed and bought. Some Skills or Powers are excluded or modified, and genre-appropriate prebuilt abilities are included.

 

Absolutely

 

The direction my opinion is coming from doesn’t mean to imply that they don’t.  Nor is it to imply that those settings are bad or in any way failing to measure up.  

 

My take on things is that we, The HERO faithful, have had our expectations met so well by HERO innate flexibility, that we can forget that new RPG’ers (both new to RPG and new to HERO) usually haven’t reached the point where they need or want such limitless ability. 

 

They just want to play. 

 

But I don’t think I am expressing myself very clearly.  I am not advocating the removal of the toolkit building part of Hero from any product.   I am simply saying that a genre aimed item, such as Fantasy Hero may want to split the book into two parts. 

 

Caution: Please read to the end before allowing heart attack or apoplexy to overcome you

 

The book should be a complete book, like Champions Complete.  Just split into two major parts.

 

Part One to be a complete prebuilt game. 

 

In the case of Fantasy Hero it should have:

complete prebuilt racial templates (human, dwarf, elf, etc.),

complete prebuilt profession templates (classes),

complete prebuilt equipment (weapons, armor, etc.),

a complete prebuilt religion (clerics, gods, clerical spells)

and a complete prebuilt magical system (magic and spells).    

The rules should be written to allow play and the character creation should be point buy, from the provided menu of options (a Mage picks spells from the list provided).  No under-the-hood build points in evidence anywhere.  Just what the spell is, how many character points it costs and what it does.    

 

Example:

Fireball, cost 4 points per 1D6 fiery explosion. Requires incantation and gestures.

 

Part Two of the book will contain all the power construction rules and all of the spells (and other stuff will be listed in HERO annotation.

 

Example:

Fireball, Cost 4 per 1D6 = Blast 1d6, Area Of Effect (2m Radius Explosion; +1/4) (6 Active Points); Gestures (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4). 

 

This way the GM and players can pick up the book, build characters and an adventure and play without every cracking open Part Two.  But when they become comfortable with HERO as a game, Part Two has all the cool stuff that makes the game HERO.  And the players can dip into that aspect on their terms, not have it all dumped on them at the front end.

 

I also think that everything I said does not apply to Supers.  Only to non-Supers settings.   A supers game simply cannot do without the full flexibility of HERO from the start. 

[IndianaJoe3]

This strikes me as being very similar to the way Lucha Libre Hero was structured - lucha in the front, Hero in the back.

[bigbywolfe]

This strikes me as being very similar to the way Lucha Libre Hero was structured - lucha in the front, Hero in the back.

It's like a RPG Mullet...

[Spence]

This strikes me as being very similar to the way Lucha Libre Hero was structured - lucha in the front, Hero in the back.

 

In short, yes. 

[Tasha]

Absolutely

 

The direction my opinion is coming from doesn’t mean to imply that they don’t.  Nor is it to imply that those settings are bad or in any way failing to measure up.  

 

My take on things is that we, The HERO faithful, have had our expectations met so well by HERO innate flexibility, that we can forget that new RPG’ers (both new to RPG and new to HERO) usually haven’t reached the point where they need or want such limitless ability. 

 

They just want to play. 

 

But I don’t think I am expressing myself very clearly.  I am not advocating the removal of the toolkit building part of Hero from any product.   I am simply saying that a genre aimed item, such as Fantasy Hero may want to split the book into two parts. 

 

Caution: Please read to the end before allowing heart attack or apoplexy to overcome you

 

The book should be a complete book, like Champions Complete.  Just split into two major parts.

 

Part One to be a complete prebuilt game. 

 

In the case of Fantasy Hero it should have:

complete prebuilt racial templates (human, dwarf, elf, etc.),

complete prebuilt profession templates (classes),

complete prebuilt equipment (weapons, armor, etc.),

a complete prebuilt religion (clerics, gods, clerical spells)

and a complete prebuilt magical system (magic and spells).    

The rules should be written to allow play and the character creation should be point buy, from the provided menu of options (a Mage picks spells from the list provided).  No under-the-hood build points in evidence anywhere.  Just what the spell is, how many character points it costs and what it does.    

 

Example:

Fireball, cost 4 points per 1D6 fiery explosion. Requires incantation and gestures.

 

Part Two of the book will contain all the power construction rules and all of the spells (and other stuff will be listed in HERO annotation.

 

Example:

Fireball, Cost 4 per 1D6 = Blast 1d6, Area Of Effect (2m Radius Explosion; +1/4) (6 Active Points); Gestures (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4). 

 

This way the GM and players can pick up the book, build characters and an adventure and play without every cracking open Part Two.  But when they become comfortable with HERO as a game, Part Two has all the cool stuff that makes the game HERO.  And the players can dip into that aspect on their terms, not have it all dumped on them at the front end.

 

I also think that everything I said does not apply to Supers.  Only to non-Supers settings.   A supers game simply cannot do without the full flexibility of HERO from the start. 

I agree completely. Though the author should be careful of how they put stuff in two places. One of the biggest failures of Robot Warriors was the way you had to go back and fourth to find stuff that should be together.

 

I DO like the structure you suggest. Prebuilt and ready to go at the front, and the toolkit in the back for those who want to tinker. There SHOULD be a very clear powerlevel that the prebuilt stuff at the beginning is built on. Then supplemental products can use that as a guideline for powerlevel. One issue Hero Supplements have had though the years was the WIDE variety of powerlevels within a line. ie Dark Champions (4e?)

seemed to push one powerlevel and the first Adventure for it was based on a much HIGHER powerlevel. Which made the adventure difficult to run for an established DC game that was built on what seemed to be the Powerlevel of that product

[Ndreare]

I would take it one step further and have the magic fit a style
"Wizardry" when wizards cast spells they must concentrate reducing their DC by half,in can't magic words,make arcane gestures and all of their powers are unified.
Then say. It cost 22 points to be a wizard (the cost of a 45 multipower). Each spell cost the wizard 2 points.
2d6 Fireball affects 4 meter radius
3d6 Lightning Bolt
4d6 Ensnaring Vines
4 PD 4 ED 4 meter high by 4 meter long Mystic Wall
5 PD 5 ED Shied of Power last 1 minute.

And so on. This is how we introduce new players and it is very easy to grasp.
The player does not need to know all the game mechanics right of the bat. The only thing the new player has to worry about is picking one or two items from a list.

 

You could even make it a little more modular

Beginning Wizards = 15 points (30 point pool) 

Initiate Wizards = 17 points (35 point pool) 

Accolade Wizards = 20 points (40 point pool) 

Named Wizards = 22 points (45 point pool) 

Master Wizards = 25 points (50 point pool)

[Spence]

This strikes me as being very similar to the way Lucha Libre Hero was structured - lucha in the front, Hero in the back.

 

I personally think that the only thing that held up LLH was familiarity.   Lucha is a niche within a niche.  And Hero needs to over come a rep of being extremely complicated.

 

I agree completely. Though the author should be careful of how they put stuff in two places. One of the biggest failures of Robot Warriors was the way you had to go back and fourth to find stuff that should be together.

 

I DO like the structure you suggest. Prebuilt and ready to go at the front, and the toolkit in the back for those who want to tinker. There SHOULD be a very clear powerlevel that the prebuilt stuff at the beginning is built on. Then supplemental products can use that as a guideline for powerlevel. One issue Hero Supplements have had though the years was the WIDE variety of powerlevels within a line. ie Dark Champions (4e?)

seemed to push one powerlevel and the first Adventure for it was based on a much HIGHER powerlevel. Which made the adventure difficult to run for an established DC game that was built on what seemed to be the Powerlevel of that product

 

Totally.  The scaled power issue is one reason why I think that Fantasy should be the direction instead of Supers or even Scifi and Espionage.  Gamers are already familiar with Sword Swinging and Spell Slinging and while many established Hero gamers like stories over the fighting, entry level gamers have always been about the battle.   Especially if they are porting over from video games.

 

I would stick to a version of FH, with a prebuilt character creation, GM section + small bestiary, + some treasure.  All in one easily digested (and complete to play) Part One.

 

There have been a few people ( OK more than  few) that argue the toolbox level rules shouldn't be in the book because it is repeating existing books and takes up page count. 

 

I completely disagree, and here is why.

 

This product is not aimed at anyone who is already playing Hero.  It is aimed at people that will not buy a standard Hero Core book because it is too hard.  If they will not buy the base books, they will definitely not buy that core book PLUS a Fantasy Book.  I spoke to my gaming group (who doesn't play Hero) and they told me that they have nothing against Hero in-game.  But, and I am para-phrasing the conversation)  trying to build a character is too insane.  There are just too many possibilities and they get lost in the weeds.    If they could just build the damn PC and not have to worry about building everything they might play.  And once they get comfortable playing, THEN talk to them about toolkitting.

 

While I love Champions and Supers is my first and foremost favorite gaming genre.  Looking back I think Champions Complete wasn't the best choice to lead off the new strategy.   By definition, Champions needs the full capabilities of Hero from the start.   But the full capabilities being available is just too much from square one.   A Fantasy Complete that has a complete prepackaged and PLAYABLE out of the box  setting/game would allow them to play a while before getting creative.  If you don't want too get into the weeds you don't have to.  

 

I do think that ALL of the builds in Part One would need to be listed and broken down in build terms using the rules in Part Two, I suggest a Part Three or Appendix of just listed items and creatures.

 

 

I would take it one step further and have the magic fit a style

"Wizardry" when wizards cast spells they must concentrate reducing their DC by half,in can't magic words,make arcane gestures and all of their powers are unified.

Then say. It cost 22 points to be a wizard (the cost of a 45 multipower). Each spell cost the wizard 2 points.

2d6 Fireball affects 4 meter radius

3d6 Lightning Bolt

4d6 Ensnaring Vines

4 PD 4 ED 4 meter high by 4 meter long Mystic Wall

5 PD 5 ED Shied of Power last 1 minute.

 

And so on. This is how we introduce new players and it is very easy to grasp.

The player does not need to know all the game mechanics right of the bat. The only thing the new player has to worry about is picking one or two items from a list.

 

You could even make it a little more modular

Beginning Wizards = 15 points (30 point pool) 

Initiate Wizards = 17 points (35 point pool) 

Accolade Wizards = 20 points (40 point pool) 

Named Wizards = 22 points (45 point pool) 

Master Wizards = 25 points (50 point pool)

 

I've been thinking of something along that line too.  But I was thinking of building the Multipower with "slots" and and giving them a list of spells to choose from.    Your Magical powers has eight slots and you can pick from this list.  The list contains ten 1 slot and ten 2 slot spells.  they can choose a total of 8 slots worth.  

 

Or something like that.   Charges maybe too. 

 

Just brain-babbling here

[Ndreare]

PS: Also like the release of D&D 4th Edition this should be released with some pre made free adventures. (see the thread below this one titled Why is it so slow in here?).

The adventures should be such that anyone who owns Fantasy Hero Complete can grab it and go, no extra books, no conversion, just play.

[BBstacker]

I second what Mac Goddess said, We need a world book. if you can do it for champions, you can do it for Fantasy Hero. I had no problem with the ages series, it was interesting on how you kept them in the overall universe.