I wonder how many have stopped using Champions/HERO for similar reasons to this?

[Balabanto]

Yes. But 6e1 is gone! Only Champions Complete is now the definitive reference.

 

"A character using Stretching has greater than normal Reach. His base meters of stretching add to the base 1m of reach he already has. The Reach provided by stretching does not reduce or otherwise affect the character's range modiifier for making ranged attacks." However, grab is not a ranged attack. What reach does is increase the distance by which a character may be considered in hand to hand combat with somebody.

 

Every single rule that you have quoted is gone. Like it never existed in Champions Complete. Champions Complete is the newest (Declared Final) version of the rules.

 

There is nothing, and I mean nothing, to prevent a character from grabbing a character, pulling it to him, and then repositioning that character anywhere in the character's stretching radius according to the Champions Complete book. It's all part of the same full phase action. (See grab and throw, grab and squeeze, grab and movement, etc) You can default to an earlier edition of the rules, but it's still not the definitive edition of the rules. Nor is there anything in the rules that says the character can stop pulling the character towards him at any point. Now you CAN argue that the character can only forcibly move someone up to the full distance of their stretching value per action, and that will partially prevent what you're talking about, if the target is at the very edge of the character's stretching distance. But that's a very weird interpretation of how limbs work. "I can only make my arm move forward and backward, I can't move my arm side to side."

 

See Grab and Movement, Champions Complete, page 150. The Grabber can move and bring the victim along, subject to normal rules of transporting other characters. So the character's position is completely up to the grabber. The grabbed doesn't have to be adjacent to him. He can be anywhere that the grabber desires.

 

Obviously, common sense applies unless the character is super-amoeba man. He shouldn't be able to forcibly relocate people to places his shoulder blades won't allow him to move them. But, nonetheless, you are quoting rules for the game that don't exist anymore.

 

The game should be able to be played with only Champions Complete, or there would be no point in printing it.

[Balabanto]

Sadly, no. Hand to Hand combat never has any range penalties.

 

I thought too that to hit an ooponent in h-t-h with stretching that there still is a range penalty.

[Hugh Neilson]

Yes. But 6e1 is gone! Only Champions Complete is now the definitive reference.

 

Funny...6e is still in the store. And I don't see any effort to indicate that Complete is 7th Ed, or even 6e Revised. And Steve still answers 6e rules questions, doesn't he?

 

I do recall Complete being touted as stripping down the rules to remove a lot of the examples. Unless I misrecall, Derek even noted the only change he made to the rules was removal of Classes of Mind for mental powers (to which I say "good riddance").

 

I'd be interested in his comments - maybe I'll send him a PM. I thought 6e remained official, and provided greater details for the rules, where Complete provided the rules needed, but much less in the way of examples and rulings. It does seem like something that merits clarification, if only for authors - it would be problematic if Balabanto included a character who relies on tactics that don't work under the full 6e rules and it is intended those rules are still part of the system.

 

A lot of criticism against Hero in 5e and 6e was that it was too dense - too many examples, too many rulings for too many micro-issues. Stripping down the rules to be part of a 240 page book clearly leaves more rulings to be made by the GM.

[bubba smith]

maybe it IS 6ed or 7th

[Christopher R Taylor]

I have always applied range modifiers to stretching; its not really hand-to-hand because it is at a distance.  And let's be honest, whatever advantages stretching has weren't worth 5 points per game inch, that was absurd.  I haven't had a character buy stretching in a game and use it but I'm severely skeptical that this makes a character into some kind of dominant combat controller.  They still only have their speed and a set CV.

 

In any case if you spent almost 60 points on being able to reach a long ways, I should hope it would be useful.

[massey]

In my experience, Stretching was really only useful as a cheap shot power.  If built properly, they were a pain in the butt.  The stretcher would hold action, and then wait for someone with a lot of movement to go, then they would use Martial Throw.  You take a lot of damage and now you're out of position so you can't attack.

 

Reminded me of that jerk kid at the arcade who would play Dhalsim and you could never touch him.

[Ninja-Bear]

Sadly, no. Hand to Hand combat never has any range penalties.

My bad. I was wrong.

[Balabanto]

I have always applied range modifiers to stretching; its not really hand-to-hand because it is at a distance.  And let's be honest, whatever advantages stretching has weren't worth 5 points per game inch, that was absurd.  I haven't had a character buy stretching in a game and use it but I'm severely skeptical that this makes a character into some kind of dominant combat controller.  They still only have their speed and a set CV.

 

In any case if you spent almost 60 points on being able to reach a long ways, I should hope it would be useful.

 

And in your home game, that's absolutely awesome, and I 100 percent support you! Champions is meant to be house-ruled. It's the entire point of a toolkit based system. However, what it can't do is change the mechanics or wording of rulebook text.

[Hyper-Man]

Nothing in Champions Complete supersedes Hero System 6e.

 

If you and your group only have access to Champions Complete then that it's your 'official' rules.

If you and your group have access to 6e 1&2 then the option exists for you to utilize the more in depth examples and edge case rulings in that book.

They are not mutually exclusive. 

[Tasha]

I'll bet if you asked Steve what HE considered to be the Authoritative Rulebook he would say 6e1 and 6e2, and not Champions Complete or the upcoming Fantasy Hero Complete. The fact that you can still buy 6e1 and 6e2 in the Online Store also bares this out. Also the fact that when Hero ran a sale on Rulebooks over on DriveThruRPG, they had 6e1 and 6e2 on sale Champions Complete was still full price. Also IF CC was the replacement for 6e1 and 6e2, they would have removed the larger rulebooks from sale, which is NOT the case.

Therefore what is in 6e1 supersedes what's in Champions Complete.

 

Oh and here's the same passage in Champions Complete CC pg 86

"A character with Stretching can reach out, Grab a character or object within the range of his Stretching, and pull it to him. This typically requires a Full Phase Action, though it requires only a Half Phase Action if the meters Stretched is less than ¼ of his full Stretching, and the target is unresisting."

 

Read the whole section on Shrinking in either book.
Here is another passage from CC pg 86
"The number of meters a Stretching character purchases represents the total amount of Stretching his body can use at any one time. If he uses all of his Stretching to Stretch one body part, he can’t Stretch any others; if he uses half on one part, half remains for other parts; and so on."

you just can't drag people around the battlefield as you like. You can only stretch your body for the full amount of Stretching the character purchased.

 

[Balabanto]

I'll bet if you asked Steve what HE considered to be the Authoritative Rulebook he would say 6e1 and 6e2, and not Champions Complete or the upcoming Fantasy Hero Complete. The fact that you can still buy 6e1 and 6e2 in the Online Store also bares this out. Also the fact that when Hero ran a sale on Rulebooks over on DriveThruRPG, they had 6e1 and 6e2 on sale Champions Complete was still full price. Also IF CC was the replacement for 6e1 and 6e2, they would have removed the larger rulebooks from sale, which is NOT the case.

 

Therefore what is in 6e1 supersedes what's in Champions Complete.

 

Oh and here's the same passage in Champions Complete CC pg 86

 

"A character with Stretching can reach out, Grab a character or object within the range of his Stretching, and pull it to him. This typically requires a Full Phase Action, though it requires only a Half Phase Action if the meters Stretched is less than ¼ of his full Stretching, and the target is unresisting."

 

Read the whole section on Shrinking in either book.

Here is another passage from CC pg 86

"The number of meters a Stretching character purchases represents the total amount of Stretching his body can use at any one time. If he uses all of his Stretching to Stretch one body part, he can’t Stretch any others; if he uses half on one part, half remains for other parts; and so on."

 

you just can't drag people around the battlefield as you like. You can only stretch your body for the full amount of Stretching the character purchased.

 

 

 

"The total amount of stretching his body can use," does not mean "The total amount of distance that the grabbed character can be moved." If I can use telekinesis to move a character, then I should be able to use my STR to move a character a near/equivalent distance. You can declare that it is, but nowhere in the passage does it say that stretching is a movement power. It just grants reach.

 

And if reach works the same way it does with growth (As it should), you should be able to relocate that character to any point within your zone of reach. Stretching the body part means that the body part is stretched. It has nothing to do with the combat maneuver that you are performing. You keep moving to build questions rather than how the combat rules work.

 

If I martial throw someone, the target falls. But it's the attacker's choice into which hex adjacent to the attacker he falls. Now let's apply stretching to that.

 

Into which hex does the thrown character fall? You can't possibly tell me that the thrown target is automatically forced however many meters of stretching it is to be adjacent to the stretching character. You also can't possibly tell me that he's limited to falling in the hex that he's in.

 

Let's look at Avengers as an example. We have Hulk smashing Loki around like a tin can. This is grab and throw, or grab and smash, or whatever you call it. Hulk doesn't let go of Loki. But he is forcibly repositioned. Loki doesn't get to choose what hex he wound up in. The Hulk decides.

 

"Hulk decides! Puny philosophers!"

[薔薇語]

And if reach works the same way it does with growth (As it should), you should be able to relocate that character to any point within your zone of reach. Stretching the body part means that the body part is stretched. It has nothing to do with the combat maneuver that you are performing. You keep moving to build questions rather than how the combat rules work.

 

If I martial throw someone, the target falls. But it's the attacker's choice into which hex adjacent to the attacker he falls. Now let's apply stretching to that.

 

Into which hex does the thrown character fall? You can't possibly tell me that the thrown target is automatically forced however many meters of stretching it is to be adjacent to the stretching character. You also can't possibly tell me that he's limited to falling in the hex that he's in.

 

 

I am not going to argue which edition is the current one nor am I going to be referencing the book (either one) to make my point. I am only referencing what you have just said. 

 

You said that the thrown character is put into an adjacent hex after being thrown. Lest my command of English has gotten quite rotten, adjacent and "any point within your zone of reach" are not equivalent statements. 

 

Next, you compared Stretching to both Growth and TK. The TK being the one you tried to use as defense for why you should be able to move a target in directions other than the limited one of "towards oneself only". While I understand the desire, it is not an apt approach I think because these are not the same powers. While they do have similarities (use of Str at range), that is not enough to say they are equivalent enough as to demand linked capabilities. Indeed, they have some rather distinct mechanical effects (on purpose, obviously) because they are not the same power and thus not limited to being copies of each other. And just as we can't limited one by the limitations of the other, we ought not expand the capacities of one because of the capacities of the other. 

 

La Rose. 

[Tasha]

"The total amount of stretching his body can use," does not mean "The total amount of distance that the grabbed character can be moved." If I can use telekinesis to move a character, then I should be able to use my STR to move a character a near/equivalent distance. You can declare that it is, but nowhere in the passage does it say that stretching is a movement power. It just grants reach.

 

And if reach works the same way it does with growth (As it should), you should be able to relocate that character to any point within your zone of reach. Stretching the body part means that the body part is stretched. It has nothing to do with the combat maneuver that you are performing. You keep moving to build questions rather than how the combat rules work.

 

If I martial throw someone, the target falls. But it's the attacker's choice into which hex adjacent to the attacker he falls. Now let's apply stretching to that.

 

Into which hex does the thrown character fall? You can't possibly tell me that the thrown target is automatically forced however many meters of stretching it is to be adjacent to the stretching character. You also can't possibly tell me that he's limited to falling in the hex that he's in.

 

Let's look at Avengers as an example. We have Hulk smashing Loki around like a tin can. This is grab and throw, or grab and smash, or whatever you call it. Hulk doesn't let go of Loki. But he is forcibly repositioned. Loki doesn't get to choose what hex he wound up in. The Hulk decides.

 

"Hulk decides! Puny philosophers!"

The thrown character falls into one of he hexes adjacent to the hex that the stretched attack originated in, not at any point along the stretched person's body. ie If my character uses stretching to martial throw someone who is 11 hexes away (22m), the person being thrown can be tossed into any of those hexes at the point of attack (that is 11 hexes from the thrower). Because that is where the thrower's hand happens to be.

 

The total amount the body can stretch DOES mean the amount a grabbed target can be moved. The rules are very explicit on this point in both CC and 6e1. They specifically say that a stretched person can only move a grabbed person/item to themselves. That said movement takes either a half or full phase to happen just like if you were using a movement power.

 

this is not a "build question" This is based on the rules for "Using Stretching" that is in both books if you have read them. Please go ahead. 6e1 does a better job of describing what you can and can't do with stretching. You have made some sweeping assumptions about how stretching works that are completely wrong. You assert that they changed from 5e to 6e, which is also incorrect. Please refresh your understanding by reading 6e1 or at least Champions Complete. If you still think you can drag people around the battlefield in the same radius as your character's stretching, please go and ask Steve about that.

[Christopher R Taylor]

The thrown character falls into one of he hexes adjacent to the hex that the stretched attack originated in, not at any point along the stretched person's body. ie If my character uses stretching to martial throw someone who is 11 hexes away (22m), the person being thrown can be tossed into any of those hexes at the point of attack (that is 11 hexes from the thrower). Because that is where the thrower's hand happens to be.

 

That's how I understand it to work as well.  If you take a full phase to toss someone  you can throw them with the usual STR chart distances (a smart stretcher has extra STR to throw guys using stretching), but the free redirect is adjacent to the grabbed target/your hands.

[GhostDancer]

Smart stretcher.  

 

 

 

 

[Balabanto]

The thrown character falls into one of he hexes adjacent to the hex that the stretched attack originated in, not at any point along the stretched person's body. ie If my character uses stretching to martial throw someone who is 11 hexes away (22m), the person being thrown can be tossed into any of those hexes at the point of attack (that is 11 hexes from the thrower). Because that is where the thrower's hand happens to be.

 

The total amount the body can stretch DOES mean the amount a grabbed target can be moved. The rules are very explicit on this point in both CC and 6e1. They specifically say that a stretched person can only move a grabbed person/item to themselves. That said movement takes either a half or full phase to happen just like if you were using a movement power.

 

this is not a "build question" This is based on the rules for "Using Stretching" that is in both books if you have read them. Please go ahead. 6e1 does a better job of describing what you can and can't do with stretching. You have made some sweeping assumptions about how stretching works that are completely wrong. You assert that they changed from 5e to 6e, which is also incorrect. Please refresh your understanding by reading 6e1 or at least Champions Complete. If you still think you can drag people around the battlefield in the same radius as your character's stretching, please go and ask Steve about that.

 

I think you don't understand the part about Stretching being partially indirect, or how reach works in Champions. All stretching does is grant additional reach. See the part about partially indirect. The path of the Stretching can be altered. (See indirect, Champions Complete 107) Everything else is a part of the grab maneuver, how many meters the stretcher chooses to move the grabbed character, and, most importantly, where the grabber chooses to stop. He can choose to stop at any time, and not use all his stretching. This means that the target can effectively be repositioned to any point within the character's reach as long as he has enough stretching left to cover the distance.

 

Ultimately, this isn't a build question. It's a combat rules question. This is all about how grab works in conjunction with a power, not about the power itself. And that, I think, is the core of where you and I differ.

 

By the way, for those who want stretching to have a range modifier, it's a -1/4 limitation. (Champions Complete, page 86) Obviously if everyone in the game world has to play by those rules, the limitation is worth no bonus.

 

And someone else like Ghostdancer's post, please. He deserves it. That was hilarious.

[Beast]

IMHO that was not a martial throw

Hulk is beating up the floor in Stark tower w/ a club named Loki
Throwing for me mean the target leaves your hand
Loki was dropped like an unwanted toy

Let's look at Avengers as an example. We have Hulk smashing Loki around like a tin can. This is grab and throw, or grab and smash, or whatever you call it. Hulk doesn't let go of Loki. But he is forcibly repositioned. Loki doesn't get to choose what hex he wound up in. The Hulk decides.

 

"Hulk decides! Puny philosophers!"

[Balabanto]

IMHO that was not a martial throw

Hulk is beating up the floor in Stark tower w/ a club named Loki

Throwing for me mean the target leaves your hand

Loki was dropped like an unwanted toy

 

Any grab will serve that purpose, Beast. That's my point entirely.

[薔薇語]

Any grab will serve that purpose, Beast. That's my point entirely.

 

Assuming the action we saw was a grab and the grab was not just the special effect of a well done punch or other maneuver, all we see is that Hulk executes a grab followed by a standard slam (a punch through a grab). We then see him release his grab. That is a far cry from Mr. Fantastic picking up Minion Matt and thrusting him to random spot X. A move that, assuming I have read the rules correctly, is not available through the simple use of grab + Stretching. 

 

La Rose. 

[Balabanto]

Assuming the action we saw was a grab and the grab was not just the special effect of a well done punch or other maneuver, all we see is that Hulk executes a grab followed by a standard slam (a punch through a grab). We then see him release his grab. That is a far cry from Mr. Fantastic picking up Minion Matt and thrusting him to random spot X. A move that, assuming I have read the rules correctly, is not available through the simple use of grab + Stretching. 

 

La Rose. 

 

Yes, but proportion counts for something. Stretching and Growth both grant reach. This is an issue about reach, and how reach works. Not an issue about stretching and how stretching works.

[薔薇語]

Yes, but proportion counts for something. Stretching and Growth both grant reach. This is an issue about reach, and how reach works. Not an issue about stretching and how stretching works.

 

Okay, I think I better understand you. And really your issue has less to do with the function of REACH and more with the use of STR. Just as I can pick up an object (my 6e1 book, for example) and move it about, I should be able to pick up people and move them about assuming I have enough strength. Thus if I have the reach I should be able to pick up a character 4 meters away and move them about using my strength, too. Is that a fair assessment of your view? 

 

On the assumption that it is, then you are still going to find that Stretching, the power, does not allow this in the way you are conceptualizing it. First, under the rules of Stretching you are allowed to drag a character to you but it requires a different maneuver to then re-position them somewhere else (perhaps a throw or shove attack). But those are not quite the same as what you have in mind. 

 

Further elaborating on that, the strength one would need to hold and move a target would be quite immense: over coming their weight, resistance, peculiar size and shape of target, any distance mods due to the center of mass of the two bodies being so far from the fulcrum. All in all, it would take a Thor like character to easily move large bodies around the battlefield so casually. Take a second and imagine the personal strain it would cause you to lift a 30 kilo weight that was on the edge of your reach. Now put that on the end of a stick and try lifting it. It is reminiscent of the old punishments when someone would be forced to hold a relatively small weight in their hands but their hands must at all times be fully stretched out from their bodies. Sure, the weight is minor, but the issue of leverage against one's strength is what makes such endeavors so hard. Now take the strongest living human and give them the ability to stretch their arms out 5 meters and then ask them to lift a person from that distance. I can't imagine that anyone would be able to do that. 

 

Anyway, I think you were being far, far to generous to the abilities a Stretcher has in the system. And also being far to generous to how effective reach is. But at least I think I better understand why you have the position you have. 

 

La Rose. 

[Ninja-Bear]

La Rose you can't apply real world to a Champions game. If you applied what you wrote about strecthing to flight power then Superman should never be able to fly however since he paid the points in game which allows it, he can fly. So when looking at what one xan or can't do with stretching one looks at the rules not physics.

[Ninja-Bear]

By the way, for those who want stretching to have a range modifier, it's a -1/4 limitation. (Champions Complete, page 86) Obviously if everyone in the game world has to play by those rules, the limitation is worth no bonus.

 

And someone else like Ghostdancer's post, please. He deserves it. That was hilarious.

 

I thought that there was a way for stretching to have a range penalty. Thanks

[薔薇語]

La Rose you can't apply real world to a Champions game. If you applied what you wrote about strecthing to flight power then Superman should never be able to fly however since he paid the points in game which allows it, he can fly. So when looking at what one xan or can't do with stretching one looks at the rules not physics.

 

 

And I would typically agree. But this suspension of disbelief we are being asked to engage in is that humans (or whatnots) can extend their arms about to extreme lengths, not ignoring basic laws of motion. Just because I accept the notion that Superman can fly I don't ignore the fact that gravity exists. Indeed, such beliefs are hardwired into the system. We accept that someone can fly but don't ignore the fact that their target has mass and as such that affects the ability of the flier to pick them up and move them about. 

 

Next, given that there is nothing in the rules that clearly gives any character the abilities to do what Bal is claiming they can do, we must reconcile his statements with something extraneous to the RAW - and in this case with common sense about how we interact with the world. The comparative of how you and I move things around in our lives is what is under question. Given that it is a real world inspired line of thought, binding ourselves to reality as much as possible given the extraordinary concepts we have to accept (Mr. Fantastic exists) is the only reasonable option. 

 

La Rose.

[Ninja-Bear]

La Rose I see your point. I would say though that genre conventions and simulation outweigh common sense in these rulings-mmv and imho of course : )

 

And I got to sit down and look over what Balabanto is saying cuz thoufh I may not agree with him as yet, I knoe people who know the rules really well and the tactics based off that understanding is amazing.