Lack of Weakness

[JmOz]

So we all know how to build Find weakness in 6th edition (Naked AP, RSR, season to taste).  But how would you build Lack of Weakness.  Note that the LoW power originally made the skill roll tougher, but if the roll succeeded the effect did not change

[Hyper-Man]

Hardened with Requires a Roll?

[Chris Goodwin]

Change Environment. -1 to a Skill Roll costs 3 points.

[IndianaJoe3]

Change Environment. -1 to a Skill Roll costs 3 points.

 

That's active, rather than passive like Lack of Weakness was. All I can think of right now are weird constructs with Trigger or Damage Shield and I'm pretty sure they're wrong or at least overcomplicated.

[Lucius]

.

Lack of Weakness:  (Total: 13 Active Cost, 5 Real Cost) Change Environment (-3 to Find Weakness Roll), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) (13 Active Points); No Range (-1/2), Self Only (-1/2), Restrainable (-1/2) (Real Cost: 5)

 

Lack of Weakness:  (Total: 21 Active Cost, 6 Real Cost) Find Weakness Group Images, +/-3 to PER Rolls, Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) (21 Active Points); Set Effect (Conceal Weakness; -1), No Range (-1/2), Restrainable (-1/2), Self Only (-1/2) (Real Cost: 6)

 

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Find Palindromedary

[Hyper-Man]

I like the 2nd example better. 

 

Change Environment only work if the character with the 6e version of Find Weakness is affected directly.  It doesn't work like a Dispel (which this build implies with the inclusion of the No Range and Self Only Limitations).

[PaycheckHero]

I have to say I think the whole "recreate find weakness" concept misguided. It doesn't work unless the GM is willing to houserule armor piercing that layers. If you're willing to houserule, you can instead get exactly what you want with no fuss *by using the actual find weakness rule*. There is no problem borrowing from one edition into another.

 

Why houserule in a way that creates funky builds when you can make it simple?

[Lucius]

So you're saying this Power

 

Styleless Advantage:  (Total: 52 Active Cost, 13 Real Cost) Change Environment (-5 to Analyze Roll, -5 to Tactics Roll), Persistent (+1/4), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) (52 Active Points); Side Effects, Side Effect occurs automatically whenever Power is used (1/2 OCV ; -1), No Range (-1/2), Self Only (-1/2), Concentration, Must Concentrate throughout use of Constant Power (1/2 DCV; -1/2), Always On (-1/2) (Real Cost: 13)

 

 

won't penalize any Tactics or Analyze rolls vs the character by 5 pts?

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Changing the Environment by putting a palindromedary in it

[Chris Goodwin]

One of the example builds given in 6e is using Change Environment to model a lock that is harder to pick. Change Environment, -6 to Lockpicking rolls. This is one of the things Change Environment was meant for.

[NuSoardGraphite]

I have to say I think the whole "recreate find weakness" concept misguided. It doesn't work unless the GM is willing to houserule armor piercing that layers. If you're willing to houserule, you can instead get exactly what you want with no fuss *by using the actual find weakness rule*. There is no problem borrowing from one edition into another.Why houserule in a way that creates funky builds when you can make it simple?

Agreed. just port over the old find weakness and lack of weakness, no problemo.

[Tasha]

Agreed. just port over the old find weakness and lack of weakness, no problemo.

 

Tell me again why Steve removed Find Weakness?

[Greywind]

He had philosophical differences with it?

[JasonPacker]

One of the example builds given in 6e is using Change Environment to model a lock that is harder to pick. Change Environment, -6 to Lockpicking rolls. This is one of the things Change Environment was meant for.

 

Except the example is of a spell that a wizard can cast on a lock to make it harder to open, not a power that is inherent to the lock itself.

 

"To use Change Environment, the character must make an Attack Roll to hit his target" - CE is very much something that someone or something has to do to a target object or person (including self).

[Ninja-Bear]

Do they still allow penalty skill levels in 6th? Perhaps something like that with 0 end and persistant.

(Iirc in 5th if you used it, then it costed end)

[Kraven Kor]

I'm with others; CE works, but it's active, requires a roll, etc.

 

Hardened, RSR with the roll being a skill vs. skill roll?  Then it becomes Find Weakness vs. Lack of Weakness roll?

[IndianaJoe3]

Tell me again why Steve removed Find Weakness?

 

I would have removed it because it could be stacked too easily. (2 successful rolls let you go against 1/4 defense, and 3 reduced to 1/8.)

[PaycheckHero]

I would have removed it because it could be stacked too easily. (2 successful rolls let you go against 1/4 defense, and 3 reduced to 1/8.)

Unless you think it was too cheap for the effect, that's a reason to not let it into a particular campaign, not a reason to remove it from the game completely.

[Hyper-Man]

Tell me again why Steve removed Find Weakness?

 

1. It didn't play well with Hit Locations.

 

2.  Defenses made resistant by the 5e Power "Damage Resistance" were not considered Resistant Defenses as far as Find Weakness was concerned (unlike Armor and Force Field).  It was a mess.

[lemming]

Find Weakness was an odd power.  We started removing it from our games at one point just because it was pretty powerfull and everything needed lack of weakness, or would wind up having 1 point of defense against certain opponents.

Note, these were fairly high powered games.

 

As a substitute, I like a power that adds extra dice to an attack, with a skill roll.

[Christopher]

Tell me again why Steve removed Find Weakness?

What rubs me wrong about it is that it is not really a clear power. It's the Ruleconstruct made for a specific special effect - doing more damage (game effect), by finding a weakspot in the armor (special effect). When making the step from 5E to 6E a lot of stuff got "generalised". Force Field and Armor were removed (both are now the more general Resistant Protection). Force Wall was replaced by the more generic Barrier (wich can be limited down to Force Wall). The Automaton Powers are now Proper Powers. JStuff that could not be generalised got removed - Find Weakness was such a case.

Also the concept of "hit a weak spot in the armor" can easily be made by any approach that adds DC. You can Haymaker a gun, wich simulates you "aiming precisely (for a weakspot)". Ranged Martial Arts and CSL set to add Damage work the same.

 

About CE:

It was noticed somewehre in 6E1 that CE can be used for stuff like "Anti Radar Coating wich applies PER penalties vs. Active Radar" and "Chameleon Suite wich is too far from invisibility, but good enough for Sight PER modifiers".

Also once you make a power persistent it is a "passive" power. Just look a Resistant Protection (or any other defense Power for that mater).

[JasonPacker]

About CE:

It was noticed somewehre in 6E1 that CE can be used for stuff like "Anti Radar Coating wich applies PER penalties vs. Active Radar" and "Chameleon Suite wich is too far from invisibility, but good enough for Sight PER modifiers".

Also once you make a power persistent it is a "passive" power. Just look a Resistant Protection (or any other defense Power for that mater).

 

You're right - 

No Range: A single-target Change Environment

with No Range (-1/2) allows a character to create

a Change Environment-based ability that only

applies its combat effects with respect to attempts

to affect or perceive him. For example, a character

might have a “Stealth Suit” that imposes a -4 Sight

PER Roll penalty on attempts to see him, or a

plane might be built with radar-absorbing materials

that impose a -8 PER Roll penalty to perceive

it with Radar.

 

 

I think that might still demand an active power use to "turn on", and unless bought off cost END and be Constant but not Persistent.

[Tasha]

What rubs me wrong about it is that it is not really a clear power. It's the Ruleconstruct made for a specific special effect - doing more damage (game effect), by finding a weakspot in the armor (special effect). When making the step from 5E to 6E a lot of stuff got "generalised". Force Field and Armor were removed (both are now the more general Resistant Protection). Force Wall was replaced by the more generic Barrier (wich can be limited down to Force Wall). The Automaton Powers are now Proper Powers. JStuff that could not be generalised got removed - Find Weakness was such a case.

Also the concept of "hit a weak spot in the armor" can easily be made by any approach that adds DC. You can Haymaker a gun, wich simulates you "aiming precisely (for a weakspot)". Ranged Martial Arts and CSL set to add Damage work the same.

 

About CE:

It was noticed somewehre in 6E1 that CE can be used for stuff like "Anti Radar Coating wich applies PER penalties vs. Active Radar" and "Chameleon Suite wich is too far from invisibility, but good enough for Sight PER modifiers".

Also once you make a power persistent it is a "passive" power. Just look a Resistant Protection (or any other defense Power for that mater).

 

It did allow me to create characters that were pretty much "Normal people" ie Primary Stats all under 20 and DCs in the 6-8 range and still be a threat vs Normal Superheroic threats (ie Def 22-30). It means that that same character would now have to buy Deadly Blow to do about the same thing. Find Weakness was one of the weird powers and could be very powerful.

 

One thing is that I hate losing stuff from the toolkit. There's always a Kludge that "Aproximates" the lost power, but it seems to lose its flavor that way. It also loses it's ease of use.

[Hugh Neilson]

Find Weakness suffers from an issue similar to Damage Reduction - a fixed cost makes it much more cost-effective the higher powered the campaign becomes.

 

If the average attack is, say, 6 DC, I can get Armor Piercing by adding 7 points to my 6 DC attack, with no skill roll or extra actions required.

 

If the average attack is 16 DC, that's going to cost me 20 points, where FW would only cost 10, and can halve defenses more than once.

 

Which game carries a greater motivation to buy Find Weakness?

[Christopher]

One thing is that I hate losing stuff from the toolkit. There's always a Kludge that "Aproximates" the lost power, but it seems to lose its flavor that way. It also loses it's ease of use.

HERO is a generic Rulesystem. Flavor is part of the special effect.

My point was that this Power was not generic at all - it was there to serve a specific Flavor for doing stuff. And only that Flavor. Wich means it is not really a generic tool and does not belong into a toolkit of generic stuff.

 

About Using 6E Deadly Blow to simulate Find Weakness: You should not. It's a limited Version of CSL. Official Writeup for Deadly blow is:

"Six 8-point Combat Skill Levels with these Limitations: Only To Increase Damage (-½), Only With Weapons (-½), and a -2, -1, or -½ Limitation defining the circumstances."

But why modifing another writeup, when you an just go to the source?

 

I'll go over the Pricing a bit. 5E Find Weaknes:

10 Points for a Single Attack

always 11- Roll, Half Phase Action per use

always -2 per Previous Attempt against same target with Burnout on Fail against any single target. Both the penalty and the

+10 Points for Group of Related Attacks of Attacks

+10 for All Attacks

+5 per +1 to the Roll

 

The three Levels of "Attacks it applies to" seem to fit the 6E version of the 2-point-CSL (Single Attack), 3-point-CSL (group of Related Attacks; even notes the "all guns" example) and 10-point-CSL (all Attacks). While technically 2-point-CSL do not allow adding Damage you could think about Toolkitting 2-point CSL only to add damage (instead of only to add OCV*).

The 11- could be done with "Requires a Roll".

 

6E CSL vs 5E Find Weakness:

Considering that Find Weakness would be more of an issue for High Defense Characters then for high DCV characters, the CSL approach seems better as it can be applied to OCV (unless you limit that out like in Deadly Blow).

Overall CSL/adding Damage got simplified a ton between 5E and 6E, so using CSL in Superheroic games is not an issue anymore.

You even got two extra granularity level: 5 and 8-point-CSL

You don't have to have a Skill Roll on it, where you could not get rid of it on Find Weakness.

CSL get's rid of the fixed Pricing issue Hugh noted.

 

*But that could be an issue as you effectively give out "+1 DC, 0 End(+1/2)" for 4 points a piece. Consider going using the 3/5/10 point CSL instead.