Question About Complications

[arakish]

This question may seem moronic, but, as an old high school teacher once said, "The only moronic question is the one that goes unasked."

 

I know, most persons use "stupid" instead of "moronic", but I liked his use of moronic.

 

The major problem I see with Complications in 6e and CC, is that they now only serve the purpose of "plot hooks."  If a GM were willing, I could theoretically develop a 400 point character with no Complications.  It used to be that Complications (previously Disadvantages) helped to somewhat "balance" the cost of the character.  Now they do not.  As said, it seems the only reason a GM would require them is for "plot hooks."

 

Is this assumption correct?  Or, am I a moron?

 

rmfr

[assault]

You're pretty much right.

 

What tended to happen was that every PC would take the maximum allowable number of disadvantages. (And you know the problems that can happen without such maximums.)

 

So, basically, for 6e, Steve Long just said: "well, there you go", and made the de facto situation formal. GMs can set whatever number of points they want for their game, set whatever maximum disads/complications they want, and even do things the old way, but the end result is more or less the same.

 

The lowered number of Complications compared to Disads in previous editions is intended to make handling them easier. Because it's not so urgent to scrape up points, a character can theoretically stick with just the ones that define the character.

 

A motivation, a DNPC, an arch-nemesis, a secret ID, maybe a weakness, and Done!

 

Taking more Complications is possible too, of course. You just don't get extra points for the privilege - unless your GM decides otherwise.

[Chris Goodwin]

Actually I believe it was Derek (in CC) who made Complications more or less optional like that. In 6E1 Steve makes it pretty clear that to get the points you have to take the Complications.

[arakish]

Thanks assault.

 

I kept reading and re-reading Champions Complete and was wondering about that.

 

Yes, I do remember how some persons would minmax the rules, but I also instituted a maximum per category.

 

rmfr

[superferret]

As always, it's up to the GM. I like Exenor!'s "A motivation, a DNPC, an arch-nemesis, a secret ID, maybe a weakness, and Done!". Some may ask for different mixes, but please make each character unique and believable, with at least some "chinks in his/her/its armo(u)r". (please, no flaming for leaving out several more pronouns).

Some PCs may have, say, 3 DNPCs, no arch-nemesis, a code of honour and no weakness.

Does anyone prefer that PCs complications are changed and reduced, but never eliminated during play?
Some min/maxers can't wait to buy off all of their PCs' complications, so the PCs can do as they please and darn the consequences! "Hey, I bought off that Code vs Killing last week - wadya mean, how did I roleplay it out?"

Would Superman still be Superman without his inability to lie, vow not to kill and vulnerability to kryptonite? No.

[phoenix240]

I rarely buy off Disads (5th Edition) since I usually select them ones that are fairly defining to my character and they'd only change if the character's nature or circumstances changed drastically. That said I do get some limitations, usually psychological with the intention of at least dropping, eliminating or at least buying them down at some point. Usually more "plot hook" type that will eventually become exhausted or overused or outright nonheroic flaws that I want the character to over come as they develop.

[Cassandra]

A Superhero is often defined by their Disadvantages (5th Edition Term) as much as their powers and skills.

 

Spider-Man is probably the best example of a character with complications.  Despite having Superhuman strength and agility he still has to answer to his Aunt May, his employer J. Jonah Jameson, as well has have a relationship with his love interest Gwen/Mary Jane.

 

Let's break these disadvantages down.

 

Aunt May is an Incompetent Dependent Non-Player Character who is also unaware that her nephew Peter Parker is Spider-Man. In the 5th Edition she is worth 20 Points with an 8- roll (She rarely strays into the line of fire.)

 

Peter does live with her so his Secret Identity more often comes up as an issue (11- roll), so that's worth 15 Points (Frequently/Major) because if Aunt May finds out she might keel over from shock.

 

J. Jonah Jameson is Peter Parker's employer.  He also hates Spider-Man.  This means that he's not only Hunting Spider-Man, but has a Non-Combat Influence.  J. Jonah isn't as powerful on his own, but has money and has hired someone to go after Spidey so he's worth 15 Points (8- roll).

 

Peter Parker is a high school student starting out, making him a Teenager.  That's more a Social Limitation because no one knows Spider-Man is breaking curfew when fighting crime.  It's worth ten points (Occasionally/Major).

 

Now let's take the TV Version of Wonder Woman.  In the first season her Secret Identity doesn't come up that often.  In fact when Wonder Woman was captured in "Fausta, Nazi Wonder Woman" Steve not only didn't notice she was missing, but actually sent a telegram to her home telling to take some time off while he went to save her in Germany.  Her Secret ID would be 8- Occasionally/Minor and worth 5 Points.

 

She does have Steve as a Competent Normal who she has to save ever episode, so he's a DNPC with 14- and worth 15 Points

 

Wonder Woman is a TV Heroine so she has a "Code of the Hero" (Very Common/Strong) and a Code Versus Killing *(Common/Total) each worth 20 Points.

 

Her enemies were Nazi Spies (First Season) or Criminals (Second and Third Season), and were all Less Powerful with Diana Prince getting captured from time to time, so there is a NCI as well and therefore worth 10 Points.

 

The only way to capture Wonder Woman was with either Chloroform or Sleep Gas, so she has a 2x STUN Vulnerability (Common) to them (20 Points).

 

*She didn't have this during the pilot movie when she dropped a German Bomber onto a U-Boat and sank it potentially killing it's crew of 75.

 

Disadvantages/Complications present the GM with means of challenging the Character based on it's conception. 

[Old Man]

Complications are built into Champions because they're a basic trope of the superhero genre.  I can't think of any comic heroes that don't have disads, and in many cases the disads are what define them more than the power set.  As such, as a GM I would probably not allow a character that didn't have complications--not because it's abusive, but because it's boring.

[Alverant]

IIRC in 6e you need to either have the required complications or buy them off. So you could have your 400pt character with no complications but it would have a 75pt item called "Bought off complications" effectively making it a 325pt character. But that's only if the GM allows it. The Hero System requires more maturity on the part of the players and GM not to abuse the rules of the game. Sure you COULD munchkin and min/max things but you're trusted not to go overboard and the GM is expected to veto anything that gets out of hand.

 

As for picking the complications themselves, they can be plot hooks, role playing guides, backstory, goals, etc. They're as much of a part of the character as powers or skills. Why does the character fight? What does the character fear? How do other people view the character? All that can be reflected in the complications.

[lemming]

Point wise, it works out the same.  I do like the fewer complications meaning that they are more meaningful.

 

Backstory with disads does make the GM job easier.

[assault]

A game can be 400 points with no complications, if the GM allows it. Remember: Hero System. Everything is an option.

 

400 points with 75 points of complications is a guideline, not a rule, unless the GM decides it's a rule.

[BlueCloud2k2]

That's one of the changes I liked about 6e was making Complications what they should be and not as a min-max tool.

 

Once I've finally gotten around to vetting what changes I like in 6e I'll use them in my 5e games.

[Soleil Noir]

One (valid, in my opinion) criticism of how the HERO System handles Disadvantages is that it's heavily front-loaded -- the player gets a small bonus of points up front, at character creation, but "pays for it" the entire rest of his career every time his Disads kick in.  It can lead to situations where players try to game the system, giving their PC's Disads that either are virtually impossible to come into play, or that would be game-breaking if the GM ever enforced it properly, with the player assuming the GM would never dare to call his bluff.

 

I thought Mutants & Masterminds/DC Adventures has a novel approach -- in that system, players can earn "Hero Points" which allow them to re-roll a critical dieroll, resist fatigue, etc., and can earn additional Hero Points when the GM brings one of the PC's Complications into play.  So rather than a one-time bonus/lifetime penalty situation, Disadvantages actually pay the character back over his lifetime, giving the GM a plot hook and the PC an extra bit of luck he can call upon when he really needs it...

[Soleil Noir]

A Superhero is often defined by their Disadvantages (5th Edition Term) as much as their powers and skills.

 

Spider-Man is probably the best example of a character with complications.  Despite having Superhuman strength and agility he still has to answer to his Aunt May, his employer J. Jonah Jameson, as well has have a relationship with his love interest Gwen/Mary Jane.

 

Let's break these disadvantages down.

 

Aunt May is an Incompetent Dependent Non-Player Character who is also unaware that her nephew Peter Parker is Spider-Man. In the 5th Edition she is worth 20 Points with an 8- roll (She rarely strays into the line of fire.)

 

Peter does live with her so his Secret Identity more often comes up as an issue (11- roll), so that's worth 15 Points (Frequently/Major) because if Aunt May finds out she might keel over from shock.

 

J. Jonah Jameson is Peter Parker's employer.  He also hates Spider-Man.  This means that he's not only Hunting Spider-Man, but has a Non-Combat Influence.  J. Jonah isn't as powerful on his own, but has money and has hired someone to go after Spidey so he's worth 15 Points (8- roll).

 

Peter Parker is a high school student starting out, making him a Teenager.  That's more a Social Limitation because no one knows Spider-Man is breaking curfew when fighting crime.  It's worth ten points (Occasionally/Major).

A good analysis, but it almost feels like those 75 points in Complications get used up TOO quickly -- there's nothing set aside for Mary Jane or Gwen as a DNPC, there's no Psychological Complications ("With great power comes great responsibility..."), no mention of his financial problems (he's a starving high school or college student working freelance), or just his general bad luck...

[Greywind]

I'd give Peter a group DNPC since they tend to rotate through.

[Greywind]

One (valid, in my opinion) criticism of how the HERO System handles Disadvantages is that it's heavily front-loaded -- the player gets a small bonus of points up front, at character creation, but "pays for it" the entire rest of his career every time his Disads kick in.  It can lead to situations where players try to game the system, giving their PC's Disads that either are virtually impossible to come into play, or that would be game-breaking if the GM ever enforced it properly, with the player assuming the GM would never dare to call his bluff.

 

Which is why the GM is supposed to vet all Disads prior to allowing the character into the game.

[Old Man]

A good analysis, but it almost feels like those 75 points in Complications get used up TOO quickly -- there's nothing set aside for Mary Jane or Gwen as a DNPC, there's no Psychological Complications ("With great power comes great responsibility..."), no mention of his financial problems (he's a starving high school or college student working freelance), or just his general bad luck...

 

Parker is an unusual case; it's hard to think of another hero that's as Complicated as he is.  But at the same time, he's far more interesting than heroes with few weaknesses or difficult personality traits, like Storm or Psylocke.

[Cassandra]

A good analysis, but it almost feels like those 75 points in Complications get used up TOO quickly -- there's nothing set aside for Mary Jane or Gwen as a DNPC, there's no Psychological Complications ("With great power comes great responsibility..."), no mention of his financial problems (he's a starving high school or college student working freelance), or just his general bad luck...

 

I wasn't attempting to present all the Disadvantage/Complications the characters may have.  I was just showing how they would be converted into game terms.

 

Spider-Man would also have an extensive Roque's Gallery who show up often when Peter Parker happens to be there, so they would have a Non-Combat Influence as well.  The Green Goblin is Norman Osborne, the father of Peter Parker's best friend Harry so not only would there be a NCI, but also a 11- chance of encountering him.  

 

A good example of this was in the 2002 movie where Peter had to hide partially in his costume on the ceiling when Norman unexpectedly showed up at his apartment.

[Steve]

It's a balancing act, determining how many Complication Poits to have on a character. Too few, they don't feel as well-defined, but too many often leads to character crippling. For most superhumans, the first 100 points are fairly easy to come up with.

 

It might be that 75 points is too low, but you can set it wherever you like. Maybe for some worlds, 100 or 125 points is better than 75, but other worlds are just right at 75.

[phoenix240]

I like between 75 to 100 points. I find that makes a character well rounded and colorful while not making anyone scramble for points.

[assault]

Just for kicks:

Born in ancient Egypt, Princess Khe-Put was restored to life by the magical talisman commonly known as the Crimson Cockroach. Inspired by the previous wielder of the talisman, she now uses the telepathic abilities it bestowed upon her to fight evil. Ironically, her powers are largely ineffective against her arch-enemies, a group of alien robots based on the Moon.

 

Assisted by her superheroic allies, she has adopted the identity of archeology student Cleo Sands, in order to fit in to the modern world and avoid the attention of her enemies. So far she has made one notable friend, her fellow student Amanda Weaver.

 

The unnatural manner of her restoration to life makes her highly susceptible to effects that drain her life force. (Most drain/transfer effects except the most mundane.)

 

20 Psych Complication: Seeks to live up to previous Crimson Cockroach's example.

15 Social Complication: Secret Identity (Cleo Sands), Frequently, Major

15 Hunted By Giant Robots from the Moon: (Infrequently, More Powerful, Kill/Imprison)

10 Susceptibility To Life Force Drains: 2d6 damage, Instant Effect (Uncommon)

15 Amanda Weaver: DNPC (Friend and classmate): Infrequently, Normal, Unaware of character’s Social Complication (Secret Identity)

 

Done. She's more a member of a team rather than a solo heroine. I might have to rethink her Hunted! The Giant Robots from the Moon are just the villains currently rampaging through my brain. Another choice might be more appropriate, although she could eventually work out how to affect their (machine) minds.

[Lucius]

This question may seem moronic, but, as an old high school teacher once said, "The only moronic question is the one that goes unasked."

 

I know, most persons use "stupid" instead of "moronic", but I liked his use of moronic.

 

The major problem I see with Complications in 6e and CC, is that they now only serve the purpose of "plot hooks."  If a GM were willing, I could theoretically develop a 400 point character with no Complications.  It used to be that Complications (previously Disadvantages) helped to somewhat "balance" the cost of the character.  Now they do not.  As said, it seems the only reason a GM would require them is for "plot hooks."

 

Is this assumption correct?  Or, am I a moron?

 

rmfr

 

 

I would not call you moronic at all, but I would not say you're 100% correct here. Basically, Disadvantages/Complicatons did not change from 5th to 6th edition in terms of how they work, but how they were presented changed. It is still possible in 6th edition to build a character without Complications, just as it's possible to build a character without Powers. It's just that everything possible is done to give the impression that they're mandatory, short of actually making them mandatory.

 

Now, I'm not as familiar with Champions Complete (although I do have it) and you may be right about that one.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Palindromedary Complete

[arakish]

Thanks for the input.  As one said, 75 points gets used up too quickly.  But that is OK.  I am working on a character (at least trying) with the Hero Designer software and have spent 105 points on Disads.  But that 105 point set of Disads is what makes the character who s/he is.  I haven't even decided if the character is male/female yet.

 

My problem is that HD is clunky and hard to use.  I have an easier time and can do it quicker making a character using paper and pencil.  This begs the question: What is the use of the software if it is more a hindrance to character creation than a benefit?

 

Anyway.  Yes it is Disads that define the hero.  As far as I am concerned, you cannot be a superhero without any Disads.  That is a virtual impossibility.  Cannot have one without the other.

 

rmfr

[bigbywolfe]

Most people find HD much quicker than doing the math by hand, especially if they are new to the system.  I suspect you either are very good at juggling numbers in your head (and perhaps not adjusting things much after making a decision), or you are building things that are not allowed by the rules and thus having trouble with HD.

[arakish]

bugbywolfe,

 

yes, I am very good with numbers.  had to be to learn the calculus for much of astrophysics.  I have had no warnings in HD except when I designed a character who had two VPPs, one for the nuclear strong force and one for the nuclear weak force.  It gave me the warning that one VPP could not be put into another one, which I already knew, but I did not know how to make a second VPP without the first one being selected.

 

As said, I guess it is because I have the talent of Lightning Calculator and can do the numbers in my head as fast as I can think of things.

 

I think the biggest problem I have is all the mouse movement and clicking just seems slower to me.

 

rmfr