HAPS - Hero Action Points

[rjd59]

 Just wondering how many people use the HAPS - Hero Action Points from "Champions Complete" in their games.

[Doresh]

I think they're a neat tool to counter those annoying situations where you fail a roll just barely. Plus the possibility of doing various agreed-upon other stuff with those points.

 

The random distribution at the start of each session is a bit weird though, but I guess it's okay if you don't allow those points to do too much.

[Christopher R Taylor]

I always want to but forget to most of the time.  I think giving them out to start with is not the way I'd go, I prefer to use them as rewards and compensations - something especially memorable said or done, something particularly heroic, each time a character is forced to act or penalized by a complication, every time something really in-genre is said or done, that kind of thing.

[steriaca]

Champions has survived 5 editions without HAPS...they really are for Heroic campaigns, not for the superheroic campaigns.

[bigbywolfe]

Champions has survived 5 editions without HAPS...they really are for Heroic campaigns, not for the superheroic campaigns.

Why?  Why would they not be just as useful for superheroics?  Or for people who don't like resource point mechanics just as unwanted for Heroic campaigns?  

[Christopher R Taylor]

I think they're ideal for superheroic games, personally: they let heroes transcend luck and the odds when they need to.

[CaptnStrawberry]

I sometimes feel Champions needs "Villainous Action Points" for the GM to ensure the Big Bad doesn't go down in the first round, or other encounters don't end prematurely.  Fair's fair, right? 

[Christopher R Taylor]

Absolutely, the villains get points too  

[bluesguy]

I have the players roll 1d6 at the beginning of every session.  I let them bank up to 10 HAP.  They can use 1 HAP to re-roll any roll they want to roll - attack rolls, skill rolls, characteristic rolls, and damage rolls.  It is simple and it keeps the funkiness of 'bad dice' from becoming too much of a problem.

[massey]

I sometimes feel Champions needs "Villainous Action Points" for the GM to ensure the Big Bad doesn't go down in the first round, or other encounters don't end prematurely.  Fair's fair, right? 

 

I have found that GM cheating goes a long way towards solving this problem.  Besides, villains have unlimited points.  They don't need something like this.

[Uthanar]

I have used them in the past, but haven't felt that they are as fun at the table as the Mutants and Masterminds version.  Which has had us talk about changing the way we use them in the campaign we are starting up.  

[bluesguy]

I don't own M&M - so how does that system work? 

[Balabanto]

I loathe heroic action points. Combat resolution already takes long enough without rerolling dice. We need to reduce combat time. Not increase it.

[Mr. R]

I have used them in the past, but haven't felt that they are as fun at the table as the Mutants and Masterminds version.  Which has had us talk about changing the way we use them in the campaign we are starting up.  

So how would you use them?

[bubba smith]

weren't HAP created for pulp HERO:?

[Christopher R Taylor]

Savage Worlds has "bennies" that are basically the same concept, but they give out so many (and you start with several) that I always have some left over every session.  Not out of caution but out of lack of use.  I prefer fewer and more precious over too many.

[Scott Baker]

weren't HAP created for pulp HERO:?

Yes, they were in Pulp Hero.

[Balabanto]

The other problem with HAP is that it rewards individualism and judicious spending of HAPs over teamwork and coordination. When players sit down to play a game, they're not playing a bunch of individuals. They're playing a superhero TEAM. Characters with HAPs tend to be less creative with the use of their powers, don't think around situations as much, and try to brute force situations way too often.

[Tasha]

The other problem with HAP is that it rewards individualism and judicious spending of HAPs over teamwork and coordination. When players sit down to play a game, they're not playing a bunch of individuals. They're playing a superhero TEAM. Characters with HAPs tend to be less creative with the use of their powers, don't think around situations as much, and try to brute force situations way too often.

Funny, it never impacted any game that I have run or played using them or other similar systems in the way you describe. My players tend to use Bennies/HAP to prevent whiffs and to help increase drama in the game. It doesn't impact teamwork in any way In my experience.

 

Having said that, I don't really like how Hero Implemented the HAP system. It's unnecessarally overcomplated, which makes it more difficult for both the GM and Players to use the system. I would love to see the system simplified by quite a bit and discussion on how to use the system better in the rules.

 

 

[Greywind]

Team? I usually end up with the JLA type of teams (groups of individuals) rather than the X-Men type of team, where they actually work as a team.

[Balabanto]

Funny, it never impacted any game that I have run or played using them or other similar systems in the way you describe. My players tend to use Bennies/HAP to prevent whiffs and to help increase drama in the game. It doesn't impact teamwork in any way In my experience.

 

Having said that, I don't really like how Hero Implemented the HAP system. It's unnecessarally overcomplated, which makes it more difficult for both the GM and Players to use the system. I would love to see the system simplified by quite a bit and discussion on how to use the system better in the rules.

 

 

 

See, that's the problem. Preventing misses. People have lost sight of the fact that it's okay to lose. Generally, Hero doesn't need anything that adds time to combat, but the way HAPs work, you might as well just accept these key rules.

 

1) No hero will ever lose a fight.

 

2) No hero will ever get captured.

 

3) No hero's life will truly be at risk.

 

4) Combat will increase in time taken to complete it.

 

These are the key things that make roleplaying games. The possibility of failure when the stakes are high, the possibility of defeat, and the possibility of death for the character. If this is true, why are you playing the game. The moment we start playing the game for narcissism, as a group of gamers, we have, IMHO, lost our way.

 

Everything that's been said here indicates that Heroic Action points are the result of a cultural shift towards negativity and individualism, where preventing loss is more important than learning from mistakes. I'm going to be kind of a jerk now and paraphrase John Wick. (The game designer, not the movie) John is infamous for running our game in what many consider to be a jerky way. However, the problem with this is that most people don't know the whole story, and that people also don't look for nuggets of wisdom even if you don't like the mining operation it stands in.

 

John says "It's not about what happens when the hero gets knocked down. It's about what happens when the gets back up." And that's my problem with HAPs in a nutshell. There's no knockdown. You don't have to watch your back. Mistakes are correctable in the blink of an eye.

 

How did we as a culture move from "Bad die rolls happen, oh well" to "Failure can be rewritten in an instant?" I don't know. But I do know that I don't like this cultural shift. And I know we need to get rid of it before we all become sore losers.

[Christopher R Taylor]

I agree if you hand out too many Hero Points, you run the risk of people just presuming they will never miss.  I think they should be rare; none given out to begin with, and thus they become something you spend carefully.  Instead of being a way of preventing a miss, they become a way of preventing failure in key moments.  Instead of being "darn I missed that VIPER agent, I'll use one of my poker chip stack I've been playing with all game" it becomes "shoot I failed my roll to protect the princess from being eaten, I can't let that happen!"

 

Its a matter of preserving heroic continuity and concept from the vaguaries of random dice.  Its to stop the game from going off in a sad, stupid, or obnoxious direction simply because the dice said so.

[Greywind]

...I wonder if a casino would let me burn a HAP at the craps table...

[bigbywolfe]

Savage Worlds has "bennies" that are basically the same concept, but they give out so many (and you start with several) that I always have some left over every session.  Not out of caution but out of lack of use.  I prefer fewer and more precious over too many.

That sounds like a GM issue, not a system issue.  My group has played a lot of SW and too many Bennies has never been a problem.

[bigbywolfe]

See, that's the problem. Preventing misses. People have lost sight of the fact that it's okay to lose. Generally, Hero doesn't need anything that adds time to combat, but the way HAPs work, you might as well just accept these key rules.

 

1) No hero will ever lose a fight.

 

2) No hero will ever get captured.

 

3) No hero's life will truly be at risk.

 

4) Combat will increase in time taken to complete it.

 

These are the key things that make roleplaying games. The possibility of failure when the stakes are high, the possibility of defeat, and the possibility of death for the character. If this is true, why are you playing the game. The moment we start playing the game for narcissism, as a group of gamers, we have, IMHO, lost our way.

 

Everything that's been said here indicates that Heroic Action points are the result of a cultural shift towards negativity and individualism, where preventing loss is more important than learning from mistakes. I'm going to be kind of a jerk now and paraphrase John Wick. (The game designer, not the movie) John is infamous for running our game in what many consider to be a jerky way. However, the problem with this is that most people don't know the whole story, and that people also don't look for nuggets of wisdom even if you don't like the mining operation it stands in.

 

John says "It's not about what happens when the hero gets knocked down. It's about what happens when the gets back up." And that's my problem with HAPs in a nutshell. There's no knockdown. You don't have to watch your back. Mistakes are correctable in the blink of an eye.

 

How did we as a culture move from "Bad die rolls happen, oh well" to "Failure can be rewritten in an instant?" I don't know. But I do know that I don't like this cultural shift. And I know we need to get rid of it before we all become sore losers.

Most of the games my group plays have an equivalent to HAPs, Fate Points, Bennies, Drama Points, and more, and I can definitively say that your first 3 points are simply false in regards to those games.  I would make an educated guess that they are also false in regards to HAPs themselves.  The use of resource points often encourages more creative use of powers and abilities and allows for great teamwork opportunities.

 

People liking something you don't happen to like is not some sign of the end of "good" role playing.  People who disagree with you are not having badwrongfun that is making them all sore losers.  Disagreeing with you does not make someone a narcissist that has lost their way just because they have a different preference than you.