Would you allow this

[Ndreare]

A player has an idea for a character who's primary power is True Invulnerability. Basically he wants to have 150 points in defense as 12DC Damage negation for Physical and Energy with the inherent modifier. I am inclined to allow this thinking even a bad guy with only 50 AP attack would be allow to hay maker or move by to increase enough to damage him.

 

What concerns me is the big bad guys with 75 AP attacks would end up hitting him with him only having 2 PD non resistant defense, which could ring his bell real easily as the group tank. He is okay with that so what do you think.

[Hyper-Man]

I don't know. True Invulnerability must mean different things to different people.  I've always tried to do it with a combination of several different mechanics.

[Ndreare]

He is trying to model a Marvel FASERIP character who had True Invulnerability at Amazing (50)

 

[assault]

He's burning 150 real points on this? That's 150 points he's not spending elsewhere.

 

I'd be inclined to let him have it.

 

It's not unbalancingly tough, and in some ways extremely vulnerable.

[Enforcer84]

I'd let it stand. Share his build if you can

[assault]

I'd like to see it too, if possible.

[Grailknight]

I'd allow it but I wouldn't recommend it. 

 

That's a big expenditure to effectively be immune to run of the mill villains  but frail versus any big bad that shows up.

[Heroic Halfwit]

I need to see the character and the player.  I wary of spending so much on defense in general.  What other abilities does the character have?

 

How much offense or utility does the character bring?

Is that enough to make attacking the character worth doing?  If not, the player is likely to be rather frustrated as he or she rarely gets to leverage that huge investment.

 

How often will the character be attacked by "big villains" or howitzers?

What about the character's DCV, Con + Stun, Bdy totals?

 

How bloody is your campaign? 

What will the character do when confronted with "garden variety" opponents?  Big villains?

 

 

[Ndreare]

No finished character yet, but the original character is a light tank, but with a super high invulnerability. He will probably be built using the templates from Champions, by selecting what is wanted and ignoring the remainder of the powers instead of the normal approach of direct conversion.

 

Currently looking at about a 40 strength, 20 con and 20 Bod. I am sure as the character gets built sacrifices will have to be made.

[Tasha]

No to the massive levels of Damage Negation. It's a defense power that is VERY easy to abuse. Also, most "invulnerable" comic characters aren't nearly as invulnerable as people think. I would ask what the Player is looking for in the power beside a direct port of an ability from another system. Because absolute anything tends to break the system. It's also very hard to challenge characters with lots of Damage Negation.

 

Also ask yourself if you would allow the same PC to take 150pts in Defenses (ie 50rPD and rED) because that much Damage negation equals that.

Tasha

PS IF You do allow the PC to have Damage Negation, point out to the Player that you will have some Villains with powers that can get around his negation. (ie you can buy powers that ignore a certain amount of Negation). Also Drains would be really effective.

[TheQuestionMan]

Drain, Ego Attack, Transforms 

 

So much for Invulnerability

 

QM

[assault]

Gas attacks, flashes, darkness.

 

He probably wouldn't be able to do much against his Evil Counterpart.

 

His Evil Opposite would have attacks that can go around his defenses.

 

A more conventional brick could go toe to toe with him without much risk of taking damage.

 

Basically he's got a hard shell, a gooey centre, and not much attack or anything else. He's a terror against normals and pure martial artists, but toast against anyone else.

[Comic]

There was a line in the TV series Bones, about a character who had been emotionally remote. She described herself as "invulnerable, not strong; they're not the same: if you're invulnerable, you never need to become strong."

 

I'd allow it, but even stock agents are built with attacks that defeat that: Flash, NND, Entangle.. not to mention the situations where some sort of Life Support or the like is necessary.

 

Besides, 12d6 Damage Negation Physical does not do enough to counter 30d6 terminal velocity falling damage, so I wouldn't really call that Invulnerability. It's more like Vulnerability to Dropping.

[薔薇語]

So, the character can negate a large amount of common damage sources but what else can he do? Also, what kind of villains will he go up against on a normal basis? 

 

One thing that comes to my mind is that if this character can't exactly pump out damage to go with his tankiness, then why would villains care if he is tanky or not? For example, if he was just a skilled normal with this one power in a team of standard supers, as the Big Bad Villain (BBV), I would absolutely never worry about him. His big skill would be to jump in front of my attacks from time to time. And if that is all I have to worry about, then in essence my enemy (the good guys) are permanently down a man. 

 

If the character does have a major way to affect a battle, then I might look more closely at the build and see if it keeps things balanced. If he is practically immune to normal damage and can pump out a reliable 8-12DC attack, then I would worry about him over shadowing his team mates but that is a normal concern with any Brick. And hardly a reason in and of itself to deny the character. But I would want to remind him that there are TONS of ways to get around Damage Negation: Alternate attacks like Flash, Entangle, Darkness, Change Environment, and BBV will likely have attacks large enough to overcome his defense. But that is something for the player to consider. 

 

Next up, Lets look at two similar builds where one uses Damage NEGATION and the other is 75% Damage REDUCTION. 

CON 20
BOD 20

STUN 40
(r.)PD 8/10

(r.)ED 8/10
75% DR v E & P.    OR    12DCs of Damage Negation.

204 points. 

 

Average roll equals 3.5 per die, or 7 per 2. I round up. 

 

Any attack below 14 DCs (especially below 12 DCs) will obviously always favor Damage Negation. So we will start at 15 DCs:

A 15d6 punch vs Damage REDUCTION is 11 damage taken. 

 

A 15d6 punch vs Damage NEGATION is 1 damage past defense.

 

A 5d6 RKA vs Damage REDUCTION is 2 points of Body and 8 Stun. 

 

A 5d6 RKA vs Damage NEGATION is 0 points of Body and 0 points of stun. 

 

How about 18 DCs? 

 

A 18d6 punch vs Damage REDUCTION is 13 stun

 

A 18d6 punch vs Damage NEGATION is 11 Stun

 

A 6d6 RKA vs Damage REDUCTION is 3 body and 8 Stun

 

A 6d6 RKA vs Damage NEGATION is 0 Body and 4 Stun

 

---
So, we can generally assume that unless the character is being attacked by anything bigger than 18DCs he can typically take a hit with either build but that the Damage NEGATION build favors the PC most by reducing the damage. But it is probably fair to say that once we hit the 20+ DC range, that favorability starts to fade and Damage Reduction would start to be best. But given that Damage Reduction would mean that even mooks could hurt the HERO, I imagine Damage Negation is the way to to. 

 

But now that you know the numbers, do you really want to allow a character who can so easily shrug off damage? You could make him more vulnerable by removing his armor (8rPD and 8rED). Each point you remove does directly translate into one more pip of stun from each attack and at a certain threshold, one more pip of killing, though. Also, since it is inherent, that means special attacks like DRAIN will not affect his ability to be hurt. So, this would mean that your BBVs who you want to be able to hurt this guy would most certainly have more than enough power to KO any other team member easily. OR that they have to go with special tactics to remove this guy from combat (Entangle, et all). But that would lead to a really unenjoyable game for him. And as I mentioned above, if he has the defenses but no offensive abilities, then he won't have much to do and the BBV can always just target down the other characters since this guy isn't much of a threat - unless you count diving in front of a bullet to be a threat. 

Also, the build I have was already 204 points. That is A LOT of points. The character will have very little left over to buy other characteristics, skills, etc. Not to mention other attack powers if he does end up being a Brick style damage dealer. All things to keep in mind. 

La Rose. 

[Heroic Halfwit]

Gas attacks, flashes, darkness.

 

He probably wouldn't be able to do much against his Evil Counterpart.

 

His Evil Opposite would have attacks that can go around his defenses.

 

A more conventional brick could go toe to toe with him without much risk of taking damage.

 

Basically he's got a hard shell, a gooey centre, and not much attack or anything else. He's a terror against normals and pure martial artists, but toast against anyone else.

 

The 6th ed. vol. 1 says Damage Negation works against AVADs but I'm not so sure about it.  If the Damage Negation has to be chosen as either Physical, Energy, Mental or versus a particular special effect, then how do you rule on things like chokes?  For example, if the character is held underwater and doesn't have the appropriate life support, should he take damage from drowning? 

 

Is the character particularly massive?  If not, I think the martial artists he faces will simply toss him about with martial throw to neutralize the Invulnerable character and use their speed advantage to accomplish other objectives. 

 

Eggshell Skull Man is too binary for my comfort.  Either everything bounces off or he goes to the hospital.

[death tribble]

I was going to suggest mental powers but it has been covered.

[Hyper-Man]

Here is a measured approach that uses 152 points:

 

    Indestructibility (List)
72    1)  Resistant Protection (16 PD/16 ED), Impenetrable (+1/4), Hardened (+1/4) (72 Active Points) - END=0
50    2)  Damage Negation (-5 DCs Physical, -5 DCs Energy) - END=0
15    3)  Physical Damage Reduction, Resistant, 25% - END=0
15    4)  Energy Damage Reduction, Resistant, 25% - END=0
 

[Hyper-Man]

The stated sfx sounds a lot like this character:

http://www.comicbookreligion.com/?c=1930&Bethany

 

Here is an alternative that would allow the character to survive a fall at terminal velocity unscathed:

 

Indestructibility
82    1)  Resistant Protection (22 PD/22 ED), Impenetrable (+1/4) (82 Active Points) - END=0
70    2)  Damage Negation (-7 DCs Physical, -7 DCs Energy) - END=0
Powers Total: 152

[Enforcer84]

No to the massive levels of Damage Negation. It's a defense power that is VERY easy to abuse. Also, most "invulnerable" comic characters aren't nearly as invulnerable as people think. I would ask what the Player is looking for in the power beside a direct port of an ability from another system. Because absolute anything tends to break the system. It's also very hard to challenge characters with lots of Damage Negation.

 

Also ask yourself if you would allow the same PC to take 150pts in Defenses (ie 50rPD and rED) because that much Damage negation equals that.

 

Tasha

 

PS IF You do allow the PC to have Damage Negation, point out to the Player that you will have some Villains with powers that can get around his negation. (ie you can buy powers that ignore a certain amount of Negation). Also Drains would be really effective.

you just pointed out how easy it was to get around teh power you said was unbalancing

 

I have no problems with either one. If he wants to spend 150 on a rather common defense (he'd not be Adam Destine level invulnerable) I don't mind that 15 dc energy or physical attacks are worthless. There are plenty of ways to deal with this guy. He's certainly not going to be much of a damage monger so his role is to stand in the middle and get hit. That would be totally easy to work with.

[Haerandir]

I wouldn't automatically disallow it, but I would counsel against in a lot of cases.  It's not wholly unreasonable, but I've found that devoting an excessive quantity of a character's point budget to 'never being hurt' can lead to a lot of unintended consequences.  A character with defenses that are wildly out-of-line with the rest of the party can make for real encounter-design headaches for a GM, including serious power-creep issues:

GM:         "I have to design an opponent who can threaten Character A."
Player B: "I have to increase my defenses in order to survive the level of opposition we're facing!"
Player A: "I have to increase my defenses in order to protect my schtick of being the toughest member of the party!"
GM:         "I have to design newer, more deadly opponents to challenge Character A's new defenses!"

 

Also, as has been pointed out, while the character will be largely invulnerable to conventional attacks (including some light anti-tank weapons), there are chinks in that armor.  The problem becomes that opponents then have to go after those gaps on a regular basis if they want to affect him at all, at which point the character folds like a house of cards and the player gets frustrated because he's been knocked out of the fight on Turn 1/Phase 3 *again*. 

 

And, as Enforcer points out, 150 points spent on defenses is 150 points that aren't being spent on offense, or movement, or senses, or utility powers.  If you're playing standard 400-point starting characters, that's nearly 40% of your character devoted to what amounts to a single power. In a way, that's great for game balance, but may lead to a lot of scenarios where the character doesn't actually have much to DO.  Being a tank is great, and all, but I for one find it deathly dull.  Maybe your player will find it more satisfying. 

 

My advice would pretty much mimic Hyper-Man's (as it often does): Take enough Damage Negation to shrug off small-arms fire (8 to 10 DCs worth, tops) and a few other defenses to blunt the attacks which do get through, and try to find a way to reduce your overall investment in defensive powers, even if it's just keeping the defenses you have and putting some Limitations on them.
 

[Ndreare]

It seams the name of the power is causing some confusion.

True Invulnerable characters scale damage just like the damage negation does.

He will still expect to take damage from other supers and exceptional humans (batman clones). But he will be immune to mundane attacks such as most small arms fire. He even points out that mind control, mental illusion and mind blast will work.

What he is hoping to avoid is the age old arms race of x2 hardened or x5 impenetrable. He wants a simple power that even if it cost a third of his points works the way he expects.

 

I decided to let him have it and will post his build when done. I doubt the build will be impressive because it is mostly picked from the random character list in Champions Universe

[Ndreare]

Here is the character I accepted him, but do plan on making suggested changes. 

 

Brick

Nathan Justice

 

VAL CHA Cost Roll Notes

50 STR 40 19- HTH Damage 10d6  END [5]

8 DEX -4 11-

30 CON 20 15-

10 INT 0 11- PER Roll 11-

13 EGO 3 12-

30 PRE 20 15- PRE Attack: 6d6

4 OCV 5

3 DCV 0

3 OMCV 0

3 DMCV 0

4 SPD 20 Phases:  3, 6, 9, 12

10 PD 3 10 PD (5 rPD)

10 ED 3 10 ED (5 rED)

20 REC 16

50 END 6

15 BODY 5

40 STUN 10

 

Movement Cost Meters Notes

RUNNING 12 24m/48m END [2]

SWIMMING 0 4m/8m END [1]

LEAPING 4 12m 12m forward, 6m upward

 

 

 

 

 

Characteristics Total: 163

 

Cost Powers

125 True Invulnerability: Damage Negation (-10 DCs Physical, -10 DCs Energy), Inherent (+1/4) (125 Active Points) - END=0

13 True Invulnerability: Regeneration (1 BODY per Hour), Can Heal Limbs - END=0

15 True Invulnerability: Resistant Protection (5 PD/5 ED) - END=0

24 Life Support  (Expanded Breathing; Immunity All terrestrial poisons; Immunity: All terrestrial diseases; Safe in High Pressure; Safe in High Radiation; Safe in Intense Cold; Safe in Intense Heat; Safe in Low Pressure/Vacuum) - END=0

 

Powers Total: 177

 

Cost Martial Arts

Tank Tricks

5 1)  Upper Cut:  1/2 Phase, -2 OCV, +1 DCV, 14d6 Strike

4 2)  Vault Ripper:  1/2 Phase, -2 OCV, +0 DCV, HKA 4d6

3 3)  Body Slam:  1/2 Phase, +0 OCV, +1 DCV, 10d6 +v/10, Target Falls

3 4)  Round House Punch:  1/2 Phase, +1 OCV, +0 DCV, 12d6 Strike

 

Martial Arts Total: 15

 

Cost Skills

Leader

3 1)  Persuasion 15-

3 2)  Tactics 11-

3 3)  Teamwork 11-

Detective

3 1)  Criminology 11-

3 2)  Deduction 11-

3 3)  Forensic Medicine 11-

3 4)  Interrogation 15-

3 5)  Streetwise 15-

3 PS: Hero of The People 15-

12 +4 with Brick tricks

 

Skills Total: 39

 

Cost Perks

Beloved Hero

6 1)  Positive Reputation (A large group) 14-, +2/+2d6

 

Perks Total: 6

 

 

Value Complications

15 Hunted:  Public Figure Watched by Media & Government Very Frequently (Mo Pow; Watching)

10 Psychological Complication:  Won't Cross that Line (Uncommon; Strong)

75 Up to 75 left for GM to develop

 

Complications Points: 100

 

Base Points: 400

Experience: 0

Experience Unspent: 0

Total Character Cost: 400

[Christopher]

There are always issues with making a too extreme character.

Problem one is that the character is too extreme to knock out. A smart villain would prefer to just move him away (pushing him out of the Xth floor) then trying to hit him.

 

Propblem two is that he has nothing besides being invulnerable. The cost is just to high. So if the enemy is not attacking him, his entire power is useless. In order to make a proper tank in a P&P RPG, the character needs some way to force the enemy to attack him. Wich usualyl requires mind control or presence attack of some sort.

 

Just look at this (somewhat more realistic) superhero comic and specificalyl the character Achilles:

http://grrlpowercomic.com/archives/1257

http://grrlpowercomic.com/archives/1295

http://grrlpowercomic.com/archives/1303

http://grrlpowercomic.com/archives/1358

Aside from the two cases and being a superhuman bullet for maxima he was useless. And after the last appereance he was out of combat until it ended, burried under rubble.

 

Sydney at least had some offensive/disruptive powers to go with her impenetrable (but also airtight) shield:

http://grrlpowercomic.com/archives/1383

 

See also point 1 in this thread on why this kind of extreme character is a bad idea:

http://www.herogames.com/forums/topic/87378-translating-characters-from-fiction-and-the-secret-of-having-fun-in-roleplaying/