Discussion of Hero System's "Health" on rpg.net

[sureshot73]

Not to mention in this digital age. With social media. Word of mouth is not the only way to market a rpg. It helps but with the first you can reach many more gamers in the hobby. To be blunt it's also not my job to spread free advertising. I don't mind but I also don't feel any obligation to do it for free. I have my hands full with my own job. I'm not doing someone else advertising. If anything they should really get POD with the 6e Core set and any other out of print 6E. It's too expensive online. Their second part of the core set will never sell out or take forever to do so. 

[Roter Baron]

That is my thinking, too. Being a customer, fan or supporter of something does not make me responsible to make it sell. I am more than happy to buy HERO stuff but I am not running around and advertise it since I am in the hobby to play games and not to market them.

 

Saying that I thus shouw a lack of support and enthusiasm is like telling people who complain about the quality of their lpval baker's bread that they should damn well get of their behinds, volunteer to bake bread for free at the bakery or sell it at a stall on the weekend's farmer's market.

Nope, not going to happen. And it has nothing to do with not getting paid - I am not into advertising, promoting and selling. I like to spend my precious free time differently - for instance with paying the games I bought for my hard-earned money wth my friends, not some fellows at the local game store or some convention (where I have to pay to get inside to play with people I don't know).

 

But the problem has always been the problem with the roleplaying "industry": Fans publishing games they like. It is an area in which amateurs (= people who love the field they working in but have to workd in other jobs) prevail. There just isn't enough money in it.

[Hyper-Man]

An alert for those who also post on RPGnet.

 

It seems that quoting from a famous gaming book like Strike Force can get you a 3 day ban.

 

https://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?778861-Superhero-RPGs-and-game-balance

https://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?779020-Infraction-for-Shade-the-Lost-3%29-Three-Day-Ban&p=19937595#post19937595

 

I sent an e-mail to the moderators with attached pics of the section of Aaron's text (after noticing that their rules state they do not accept 3rd party appeals).

 

So sad

 

HM

[Christopher R Taylor]

Sad how wretched and cringing as a people we've become in such a short time.  You said a word!  A word!  It shatters my inner child!

[sureshot73]

To be blunt if your dumb enough to write something like "rules rapists" when refereing to other members off the hobby. Your asking for a ban and deserve it imo. That type of toxic BS does not belong anywhere near the hobby. Yes they are people who like to learn to rules and get the most out of them. You don't have to like them. Calling them "rules rapist" is helpful how exactly. 

[phoenix240]

An alert for those who also post on RPGnet.

 

It seems that quoting from a famous gaming book like Strike Force can get you a 3 day ban.

 

https://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?778861-Superhero-RPGs-and-game-balance

https://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?779020-Infraction-for-Shade-the-Lost-3%29-Three-Day-Ban&p=19937595#post19937595

 

I sent an e-mail to the moderators with attached pics of the section of Aaron's text (after noticing that their rules state they do not accept 3rd party appeals).

 

So sad

 

HM

 

The Mods are really turning that place into a Paranoia LARP. 

[phoenix240]

too off topic. 

 

[sureshot73]

So anyone should be able to say anything and everything and then hide behind free speech. The mods should just not do anything. That's not how it works. If you think that calling others in the hobby rules rapists is a good thing or even acceptable then no wonder our hobby is dying a slow death. Considering how today society is politically correct. They have no choice but to crack down on that kind of stuff. I don't agree with. I don't blame them either. No to mention that kind of stuff might get you banned or at the very least get you in trouble hear too. 

[bigdamnhero]

If you don't get what's so awful about that phrase even after people here have tried to explain it to you, then there's nothing more I can say that'll likely convince you. And the fact that someone else said it first doesn't absolve you of responsibility for choosing to repeat it.

[Roter Baron]

When I read the passage back in the enlightened days of the late 80s it never occured to me that it meant that real people were accussed as being as bad as people who force others to have sex with them.

It meant "people who used the rules to further their own end fully knowing that that end was not the intent of the rules".

 

Well, but we have it over here as well: Curently there is a discussion on the German Tanelorn forum wether the new D&D 5th Edition "Curse of Strahd" adventure is furthering anti-gypsy sentiments (= is racist) and thus should not be played.

 

If you don't have any problems make some up ...

 

I think free speech is a thing of the past. Before you open your mouth please think if there might be a thin-skinned being in the galaxy that may invent a being with even less skin on its body that might - a lot of dellusion and fantasy granted - be offended.

Then: Shut up.

 

That said - I am no fan of the "Let's be super non-PC and offend and insulte everybody and his dog thus showing our courage!"-counter-movement either. The Though Police is not to be countered by arse-hattery.

[zslane]

That doesn't describe 80-90% of RPG publishers...

If true, and I'm not disputing your numbers, then there is simply no way anyone can claim that the hobby is as healthy and robust today as it was 20 years ago when Hero Games was publishing new material on a regular basis and supporting Champions in a big way. On the other hand, if the industry is every bit as healthy and heavily populated (by gamers) today as it was back then, then there is no reason an RPG company like Hero Games (i.e., one that isn't WotC) can't operate today like it did back then.

 

Even in today's diminished RPG landscape--and yes, I see a greatly diminished landscape--it is possible to have a generic toolkit system with robust company support, licensed product lines, and highly active third party participation (far more than we see for the Hero System). Savage Worlds is a good example. If Pinnacle can do it with Savage Worlds, then there is no reason why Hero Games can't do the same thing for the Hero System.

 

But it doesn't, because it doesn't have the necessary resources (and by resources, I mean far more than just money). And until it does, we are all just re-arranging deck chairs, as it were. Continuing to point at the complexity of the system or the neutron star-like density of its presentation (the Complete books notwithstanding) is a case of attacking the wrong problem first, IMO.

[Christopher R Taylor]

If there was any licensing to be done, I'd love to see Kurt Busiek's Astro City done in Champions.  Such a great world.

[Doc Democracy]

Whew!!  Just ploughed my way through all 22 pages of this.  

 

I do not think HERO is in a healthy place because there does not seem to be a plan for the future that anyone can see.  It is nice that there remains a fan base and third parties that will publish decent stuff but that does not make me want to save up my game cash for the next HERO thing coming out.

 

I do not see HERO evolving to meet the needs of the new market and we all know what happens to things that do not evolve, don't we?

 

To me, gaming is a hobby.  I do it because I like to.  People get involved because they want to.  Some folk see an opportunity to make a living, many see a chance to get back some of their expenses, most do it as a labour of love.  HERO is not gathering all of this up into any kind of coherent momentum.

 

I buy stuff that makes me excited and ready to part with my cash.  Games I am invested in have a lower threshold to cross to persuade me to part with that cash than other stuff because I know I like it but the also lack the excitement of the 'new' that other stuff might offer.  I think HERO needs to be thinking how it excites its core as well as attracts those who have never played it.  Doing the odd book of content that is the same but different to past books of content is a great way to tread water.  A core base means you have an opportunity to innovate - the money is coming in, so try to do stuff that is exciting and new.

 

My rant about all games is the lack of investment in the player user interface (otherwise known as the character sheet).  The player interacts with the game via this interface and it is something I think all game companies have failed to invest in.  Champions innovated by having the silhouettes on its original sheets, an injection of colour and character other games had failed to do.  Modern games will twig this at some point - character sheets should provide players with the colour and uniqueness of the game they are playing.  I see future games having electronic character sheets that do all of the bureaucracy in the background and serve up animations and tactical suggestions.  Before that, even just sound effects would be cool...

 

As for simple v complex, as Christopher Taylor, Tasha and others have pointed out, it is not necessarily a binary situation.  It could be simple for users unless they choose to peel off the wrapper.  One key difference in current editions from the original game is the complexity of skills.  I used to get by with PS: private investigator for a lot of stuff....

 

I saw an article suggesting that you build your character during the game.  The author had D&D in mind, the players would start the game without a clear idea of their class or anything but would have a decent idea of the game set up.  As the game progressed and they needed, for example, a thief, or magical knowledge, or just someone handy in a fight, players would begin making decisions and filling in their character sheet.  I can see something similar with HERO.

 

That 15D6 napalm blast mentioned many pages ago.  It could indeed simply have that on the sheet with END cost and range.  By adding a slight surcharge, the player might develop and refine the nature of that as the game progresses - an element of sticky, maybe a reduced range, maybe some area effect etc etc as the story demands.  That would allow the player to stretch out their need to make decisions up front and begin to really engage with their powers.  It would also give the GM the ability to allow the player to pull an ace from the hole during play.

 

Similarly, with PS: private investigator, charge 15 points for it and allow the player to make some generic PI rolls until he needs something specific and then start filling out some of the space below the main heading with more specific stuff, as it becomes important to the story.

 

All of this could begin to make HERO feel like a new game even i the core mechanics and engine was untouched.  The players might never NEED to see the core if they can be led through it by an intuitive (and in my dreams) interactive character sheet.

 

After 22 pages there is more I want/need to say but I think I can leave it at this for now....

 

Doc

[bigdamnhero]

If there was any licensing to be done, I'd love to see Kurt Busiek's Astro City done in Champions.  Such a great world.

I'd back that Kickstarter in a second! But Steve has previously expressed some of the challenges in working with licensed material so I understand why they are reluctant to do so. And the few times they have done so (PS238, MHI) haven't exactly set the world on fire. So I'm not holding my breath for Astro City Hero.

[Tasha]

RPGs have changed a LOT since Aaron's book was published. For one thing more Women and non whites are playing. So it really is time to clean up racist and sexist language in the hobby. It isn't about non whites and women being more sensitive. It's about making everyone feel welcome IN the hobby.

The reason people are bringing up the Strahd adventure's depiction of Gypsys is that it's very stereotypical and very racist. It's a bad view of a different culture. They should have probably asked some Romany people about how to get it right. How to make that depiction not a racist caricature as it was in the original product and the current one. If all you can say is "it's a fictional people get over it" congratulations you ARE part of the problem.

It's the same thing with the causal way Rape is bandied about by people. It seems like too many men don't understand how devastating it is for it's victims (Male and Female). There are other terms that are commonly used in the hobby for people who use the rules in that way. We call those people Munchkins, Power Gamers, Cheaters and many other terms that express the same thing without misusing that word.

[Christopher R Taylor]

If I knew why or how, I'd definitely try to get the licensing from Busiek and work on the product.  He's on Facebook and I could contact him there but that's probably not the ideal way to handle it.

[Roter Baron]

They should have probably asked some Romany people about how to get it right. How to make that depiction not a racist caricature as it was in the original product and the current one.

 

Guess what: NOBODY who is now upset asked a gypsy about how they feel about the adventure. It is all about a paternalistic feeling concerned with people who seemingly cannot think or react according to their own "best" interest. And of course showing the world how enlightened oneself really is.

I call that "taking care of the stupid children - the leftist/ liberal approach".

 

I could have seen a gypsy complaining or one of the umbrella organizations that there are in Germany and many other countries (although they most of the time go overboard and try to ban for instance the usage of the term "Zigeunersauce" (Gypsy sauce), one of Germany's most popular sauces because it is stereotypical, racist and discriminating ....

 

Maybe I should also be miffed because the vampire is male, white and his last name is von Zarovich - clearly, this bloodthirsty villain is at least of German decent - a Siebenbürger-Sachse judging from his first name.

But I guess that is all right: As long as all villains are male, white and German everything is all honky-dory and right on the spot.

Why is there no black, female, lesbian vampire-princess in fantasy-land? No, it always the white, male German!

 

See, if I want to get upset I have more than one opportunity to do so. I can also play the game of the discriminated and rebel without a cause.

 

P.S.: Just for the record - "gypsy" may not be the PC term any more but it is still my term of choice since

1) there is nothing wrong with it - people use it to describe themselves,

2) changing the name does nothing to change any of the problems the group has (see: Negro - Colored - Afro-American - Black - African-American - for reference read: Randall Kennedy: Sellout. the Politics of Racial Betrayal).,

3) it includes all of the different folks that are not included under the term "Romany" like Irish Travellers, Jenische etc. Romany is just one specific part.

[phoenix240]

 

Why is there no black, female, lesbian vampire-princess in fantasy-land? No, it always the white, male German!

 

 

I'm working on it! 

 

But I know of at least one bisexual Native American Vampire Princess in Urban fantasy/horror to tide you over. 

 

Edit: Does Tara from HBO's True Blood series count? She's not a literal princess but she hits the other requirements. 

[phoenix240]

If I knew why or how, I'd definitely try to get the licensing from Busiek and work on the product.  He's on Facebook and I could contact him there but that's probably not the ideal way to handle it.

I know how you feel. I'd love to see an Invincible rpg powered by Hero System/Champions. 

[Lucius]

I know how you feel. I'd love to see an Invincible rpg powered by Hero System/Champions.

The only "Invincible" RPG seems to be D&D. The only game that ever beat it out of the top spot was Pathfinder, which did it by being better at D&D than D&D.

 

In other words, D&D is such an invincible market-share-gobbling powerhouse, it can even defeat itself.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary says that sounds self-defeating....

[Ragitsu]

It's the same thing with the causal way Rape is bandied about by people. It seems like too many men don't understand how devastating it is for it's victims (Male and Female).

 

Sexist.

 

Note that I bring this up because you said "too many men" instead of "too many people", implying that men, in particular, have less emotion/empathy/intelligence/wisdom (pick your poison) by default.

 

 

Maybe I should also be miffed because the vampire is male, white and his last name is von Zarovich - clearly, this bloodthirsty villain is at least of German decent

 

Sounds like German and Russian (or at least Slavic). Talk about a bad-guy twofer!

 

I did enjoy him in the book "Vampire of the Mists" with vampiric elf Jander Sunstar.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Similarly, with PS: private investigator, charge 15 points for it and allow the player to make some generic PI rolls until he needs something specific and then start filling out some of the space below the main heading with more specific stuff, as it becomes important to the story.

 

All of this could begin to make HERO feel like a new game even i the core mechanics and engine was untouched.  The players might never NEED to see the core if they can be led through it by an intuitive (and in my dreams) interactive character sheet.

This is pretty contrary to the very core concept of Hero and its precision, though.  You could certainly do it, but that's definitely a move away from the basic ideas of Hero Games.

 

[phoenix240]

Sexist.

 

Note that I bring this up because you said "too many men" instead of "too many people", implying that men, in particular, have less emotion/empathy by default.

 

 

Yeah, I've heard women make some pretty callous comments, even jokes about rape over the years particularly if the victim was male. 

[phoenix240]

 

This is pretty contrary to the very core concept of Hero and its precision, though.  You could certainly do it, but that's definitely a move away from the basic ideas of Hero Games.

 

 

One of things I like about Hero System is that you can do this. I think something like it was even suggested in the Ultimate Skill. But you want to focus in on specifics and details you can do that too. 

[Surrealone]

Nothing worthwhile to say given the latest turns of discussion in this thread.  Wow.  Just ... wow.