Discussion of Hero System's "Health" on rpg.net

[Lucius]

 

I have a number of ideas about how to reform Skills but given that none of us have the power to change the official or canon Rules as Written

 

(Total: 5 Active Cost, 2 Real Cost) Minor Transform 1d6 (Rules into improved Rules, reverted by: House Rules) (5 Active Points); Limited Target Role Playing Game Rules (-1) (Real Cost: 2)

 

maybe we should stick to what we can realistically change in the kind of fan-made supplemental productions some of us are describing making.

 

 

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary thinks that Power build needs a global area Megascale

[Vondy]

I have a number of ideas about how to reform Skills but given that none of us have the power to change the official or canon Rules as Written

 

(Total: 5 Active Cost, 2 Real Cost) Minor Transform 1d6 (Rules into improved Rules, reverted by: House Rules) (5 Active Points); Limited Target Role Playing Game Rules (-1) (Real Cost: 2)

 

maybe we should stick to what we can realistically change in the kind of fan-made supplemental productions some of us are describing making.

 

 

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary thinks that Power build needs a global area Megascale

 

I don't restrict brainstorming, or even how I use the existing system, to what is "realistic" for future editions. In fact, Its not even change to the existing system to use only background skills. Its just a different "toolkit" approach. All it takes is a sidebar and some gumption.

[Tasha]

Perhaps better would be to have the larger skill list in the core rules and then for the other games, fewer as befits the genre.  Does fantasy Hero need Forensic Medicine and Computer Programming?  Does a gritty cop game need High Society, or Ventiloquism?  So the genre books don't need all of those skills listed.  They can refer to a larger list in the core rules to show what else is optionally possible but don't need the whole skill list. 

 

I don't think that Fantasy Hero Complete comes with Computer Programming. It does come with Forensic Medicine, as there is plenty of Fantasy where characters use skills similar to that and solve crimes. Just like it come with the Modern sounding skill "Paramedic" that could be renamed Healing for a better feel.

 

Does a Gritty Cop show ever deal with CEO's and other rich people? I am sure that Detective Gordon from the Gothem TV show has High Society. Ventroloquism might not be as common.

 

Though this does kind of make a point that both myself and Vondy made. Perhaps to move our approaches together. High Society should probably be a Culture Knowledge (or a plain KS) The Character would have Charm instead of the 5 Pre Skills We now have. PS Persuasion, Oratory, High Society, Streetwise could be the modifiers on that skill. Of course that smacks of simplifying a list and making the build more complicated.

 

Also do we really need KS, CK and AK's couldn't they just all be part of Knowledge skill about an area or culture. Just make them pay just 2pts for the stat based skill roll. Then kill off Scholar, etc. That we have such a skill modifier is clear indication that those skills covered by the modifier are too expensive.

[phoenix240]

I like the skill list. Personally I like developed skill lists over all. I find they help me shape and create a character specifically how I want them. The broad based skill systems always run into some problems for me. One, they feel a little bland and there's the problem of everyone being on the same page. like if the Player's idea of what "Ace Attorney" means compared to mine or someone else's. And sometimes I want to make character that are more individualized. My PI might be great at tracking leads and shadowing but lousy questioning subjects or examining forensic clues. That sort of thing. It its a good option to have. 

 

I'm getting the sense I should just walk away. Nothing I (and several of the people in our circle) like about the system seems to be very well liked anymore and often called to be cut out all together. And there doesn't appear to be enough people that enjoy what we like to support a system and maybe its what driving people away. 

 

Edit: I apologize if that got whiny and hope you'll excuse the venting. 

[sureshot73]

I apologize for my post. 

[Lucius]

Of course that smacks of simplifying a list and making the build more complicated.

Exactly. Sometimes simplifying one aspect of the game complicates another.

 

On the one hand, we want the process of creating a character to be easier and that might mean having

obvious explicit options for things people want. But on the other, we want to keep the page count reasonable.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Sometimes a palindromedary is useful and sometimes it complicates my life.

[Vondy]

I like the skill list. Personally I like developed skill lists over all. I find they help me shape and create a character specifically how I want them. The broad based skill systems always run into some problems for me. One, they feel a little bland and there's the problem of everyone being on the same page. like if the Player's idea of what "Ace Attorney" means compared to mine or someone else's. And sometimes I want to make character that are more individualized. My PI might be great at tracking leads and shadowing but lousy questioning subjects or examining forensic clues. That sort of thing. It its a good option to have. 

 

I'm getting the sense I should just walk away. Nothing I (and several of the people in our circle) like about the system seems to be very well liked anymore and often called to be cut out all together. And there doesn't appear to be enough people that enjoy what we like to support a system and maybe its what driving people away. 

 

Edit: I apologize if that got whiny and hope you'll excuse the venting. 

 

I didn't say I didn't think there should be skill lists at all. I said I thought they should be tailored to the game and genre in question, and that they served as a conceptual touchstone for new players. I don't agree that they have to be bland, or broadly defined, either. That's entirely a property of the descriptive names assigned to them. In fact, how you name a professional skill may actually provide individual flavor, or serve to introduce granularity. Two skills I see as really problematic - and demonstrate you are raising a double edged sword - are streetwise and high society. They are both extremely broad and bland. Why would I ever purchase knowledge skills about those fields? 

 

And, as I noted before, a person with the standard Charm 14- is actually more broadly effective than PS: Ladies Man 14-. Yes, "Private Investigator" is very broad, but that's not the only way to define that. And I very clearly said it could be more granular. You could do PS: Surveillance (or just call it "Shadowing") to get the exact effect you are describing. If you aren't sure if you understand the label the same way the player does... talk to them. Make them discuss it with you. Communication is always king.

 

Nor would there be any reason you couldn't redefine the existing skill list according to the background skill schema and leave it in the main rule book otherwise unchanged. Of course, that underscores the issue I'm getting at to start with: the we have a closed official list with open ended extension system that, due to how they work conceptually, can duplicate, overlap, or entirely replace the existing system. Its not going to change, though. As I myself noted, people didn't like it when I raised it the first time. The skill list isn't going anywhere.

 

Also, I think you are overreacting and taking it to personally. I never said the skill system was driving people away from the system, and the fact that I prefer to use it differently than you means nothing. You aren't in my games, are you? 

[Vondy]

I don't think that Fantasy Hero Complete comes with Computer Programming. It does come with Forensic Medicine, as there is plenty of Fantasy where characters use skills similar to that and solve crimes. Just like it come with the Modern sounding skill "Paramedic" that could be renamed Healing for a better feel.

 

Does a Gritty Cop show ever deal with CEO's and other rich people? I am sure that Detective Gordon from the Gothem TV show has High Society. Ventroloquism might not be as common.

 

Though this does kind of make a point that both myself and Vondy made. Perhaps to move our approaches together. High Society should probably be a Culture Knowledge (or a plain KS) The Character would have Charm instead of the 5 Pre Skills We now have. PS Persuasion, Oratory, High Society, Streetwise could be the modifiers on that skill. Of course that smacks of simplifying a list and making the build more complicated.

 

Also do we really need KS, CK and AK's couldn't they just all be part of Knowledge skill about an area or culture. Just make them pay just 2pts for the stat based skill roll. Then kill off Scholar, etc. That we have such a skill modifier is clear indication that those skills covered by the modifier are too expensive.

 

One way of doing this would be to present the five "background" skills with the current skills from the skill list presented under each as illustrative examples. That would be enough to start play with, provide a default level of granularity for how to define the skills, and not offend Orthodox Heroites. All their favorites would remain in place (mostly) untouched.

[Tholomyes]

The skill system has always been a tough-spot in my eyes for HERO, for multiple reasons, so an overhaul wouldn't be unwanted for me. Though part of it, I feel, is fairly ingrained in the system: having target skill rolls vs the more d20 way of having skill mods and DCs, for example, or the way that the bell-curve lacks much granularity outside the ends (where you're so likely to succeed/fail anyway that the granularity isn't as noticeable). Though other things I think could more easily be changed.

 

The "All or nothing" aspect of having a skill is a real sticking point, since it makes me feel like I have to buy every skill, just because it might be something my character would theoretically be capable of. And as such, it also means, if everyone has, for example, conversation, then the character for whom Conversation is a more key skill (maybe, a charming Bartender who fights crime as a street-level hero) isn't as notable. A concept that I'd toyed with was that all skills are base 6+CHAR/5, and are essentially "everyman skills" with the associated limitations, but scale with stats. That way the 20 PRE character doesn't need to feel like they have to take every interaction skill to be better than the "everyman" at social stuff, but generally even a baseline human with the skill purchased at normal levels will be as good or better at it than just someone, even someone immensely competent, who attempts it untrained. From there the first 3 +1 bonuses would be 1 point (allowing further granularity that is a bit lacking) representing different levels of training or experience. 1 rank might be a hobbyist. 2 ranks might be moderate training (on the level of "I took French Literature as a major/concentration in college, but I haven't done anything professionally or advanced with it") and 3 ranks would be professional level training, with the further, more expensive ranks, being more-advanced-than-average training.

 

As well, EGO has a minimal role outside of games where psionic effects are frequent, mainly just as a way to overcome psychological complications (something else I could go on about; I have never been a fan of complications being simultaneously RP drivers and a points source. IMO M&M went the right way with having no real rules/points for complications, but if one of your complications affects you, you get a 'cookie' of sorts). When Figured Characteristics were a thing it may have made more sense (I only played a little 5er, so I can't even remember what it affected), but I think revising the skill list, and moving beyond "Agility Skills" "Intellect skills" and "Interaction skills" could give it more weight.

 

As for the skills themselves, in terms of number of skills, and the like, I'm torn. On one hand, I like that there is a bit of opportunity for variation, but I feel like it might be better to do something like the knowledge skills rule in the skills book: Essentially you can buy any degree of granularity of knowledge skill, from KS: Everything in the Universe to KS: Movies in which Robert Duvall says the word "Toast", but when trying to use the skill in a broader or more narrow context gives a penalty for each level of broadness or narrowness you go. If I were to redo the skill system, I might try for something like that, extended. So you could take an average-breadth skill like "Stealth" and have no penalty, or a more narrow subset, like "Shadowing" where you'd be better at that specific sub skill, but other aspects of stealth you either wouldn't have access to, or maybe you'd have access to, but at a penalty. Likewise, you could take the "Thievery" super-skill but since it's so broad, you'd be using it at a penalty compared to someone who bought one of the individual skills, and you might not be able to do something specifically specialized within the broad category of "Thievery".

[Christopher R Taylor]

I think that a serious look at skills to decide if they should cost what they do would be in order, too.  Some of them are kind of questionable in utility for their cost, like Ambidexterity was slashed by about 10th of its cost from 5th to 6th.

[Tasha]

It would be nice to have some kind of fall forward mechanic. Though a simple HeroPoint/Bennie system would probably be good enough.

[Amorkca]

My timing was perhaps a bit unfortunate. While things had seemed to be getting back into the swing of things with that campaign, the GM in question (not much more than an hour after I posted, mind you) mentioned on twitter that he might be taking a break from GMing for a bit. Here is the link for the recordings of the first few sessions, though.

 

Does anyone know what program they are using to note where the players and NPC's are? Does the Combat Manager have a visual effect like this?

 

I think I may have found it RPTools.net can anyone confirm?

Edited April 4, 2016 by Amorkca

[Markdoc]

I have a number of ideas about how to reform Skills but given that none of us have the power to change the official or canon Rules as Written

 

(Total: 5 Active Cost, 2 Real Cost) Minor Transform 1d6 (Rules into improved Rules, reverted by: House Rules) (5 Active Points); Limited Target Role Playing Game Rules (-1) (Real Cost: 2)

 

maybe we should stick to what we can realistically change in the kind of fan-made supplemental productions some of us are describing making.

 

 

I don't restrict brainstorming, or even how I use the existing system, to what is "realistic" for future editions. In fact, Its not even change to the existing system to use only background skills. Its just a different "toolkit" approach. All it takes is a sidebar and some gumption.

 

In fact, if we loop back to what we were saying earlier about "presentation" these two viewpoints are entirely compatible.

 

Hero system has a basic skill list - but nothing says you need to use any or all of those skills in your game (and in fact in many heroic level games, certain skills are - by default - off the table, because they don't fit the genre). All of these skills are built off the basic mechanism: buy 8- for 1 point, 11- for 2 points, or 9+CHA/5 for 3 points. (Personally, I would like to tweak those numbers, but that's another issue). which you can use to define any skill as broadly or narrowly as you like.

 

There is also the weapon/vehicle FAM rules, and I agree with Vondy that they are an anomaly that adds about zero utility to the game. As it stands, you can spend 20 points on being a superb driver, and not know how to drive a vehicle.

 

So it's entirely possible for a fan publication (or for that matter an official Hero publication) to both be entirely compatible with the core rules, and use a short thematic-based skill list. In my "quick-play" Fantasy Hero mod. I simply let the players choose a 10 point skill package representing their background and called it good: that worked just fine. In the same vein, a GM (or module writer) can say "Here's how we are going to handle skills" and as long as the core mechanism is respected, the outcome will still be entirely Hero-compatible.

 

cheers, Mark

 

Edit: Vondy said basically about the same thing.

[ghost-angel]

Personally, I like the expanded Skill list of the Hero System, I'm always frustrated by short, overly broad, skill lists.

 

But, if we're on the idea of looking how to overhaul the Hero Skill System, Creating a kind of list you could Expand or Collapse as you need for each game you're playing, going with the Toolkit approach.

 

We already have this to a certain degree; Systems Operations for some games is the only skill you need to work any kind of computer like device; but some games like Star Hero will have an expanded tree breaking out Medical Equipment, Communication Equipment, etc and so on. There's no reason that concept can't be used across the board.

 

Don't feel like dealing with the majority of Interaction Skills, because your game doesn't focus on them at all? Then we use "Interaction Skill" instead of the individual Skills. The DEX Based Skills could be broken into discrete aspects as well.

 

Group Stealth, Shadowing, Locking Picking, under a Skill called "Subterfuge" instead, for example.

 

The Cost doesn't even need to change at all. A Game would use either the Broad or Narrow Skill List, or whatever combination the GM felt was appropriate of the game. The System is already designed with the idea of increased and reduced granularity in this area, we'd just need to expand it to cover the entire Skill System.

[Ragitsu]

That would definitely have to be optional. ghost-angel. Simply put, the idea of an "Athletic" Skill being the only and mandatory option for the physically-inclined heroes in more realistic/granular games, for instance, rankles me.

[Vondy]

That would definitely have to be optional. ghost-angel. I rankle at the idea of an "Athletic" Skill being the only and mandatory option for the physically-inclined heroes in more realistic/granular games, for instance.

In such games, you could:

 

Require several narrowly defined skills (using default skills or well-armed professional skills)

 

Or...

 

Have "athletics" with several sub-categories.

 

The latter is a bit fiddly, IMO, but has a precedents in navigation, survival, systems operation, etc. The idea is that the list should be tailored to the genre and play style in question.

[Ragitsu]

In such games, you could:

 

Require several narrowly defined skills (using default skills or well-armed professional skills)

 

Or...

 

Have "athletics" with several sub-categories.

 

The latter is a bit fiddly, IMO, but has a precedents in navigation, survival, systems operation, etc. The idea is that the list should be tailored to the genre and play style in question.

 

Could you have both the broadly competent omniskill and more specialized types of Skill divisions (Athletics versus a laundry list composed of Climbing, Hiking, Lifting, Jumping, Swimming, etc) existing in the same campaign?

 

I certainly hope so. This level of compatibility would be useful in representing the differences between both the "plausible-yet-awesome" individuals trained/experienced in multiple fields of expertise and the "larger-than-life" or "purely cinematic" folk (such as someone from another reality with loftier narrative conventions like Jack Slater of The Last Action Hero) as they interact with one another.

[Shigeru]

Lots of good discussion going on in here.

 

For my part, I am running a small Champions campaign in Roll20. I have a had a few people say "I would like to see how this system works, in action". And I expect I will actually try to run some Zero Sessions to introduce people to the concepts of the SPD chart, TURNS, STUN/BODY and the like. Its a wonderful system for simulating various effects, but some people need it played out for them. And I think that the Virtual Tabletop community is growing faster than the "actual" tabletop community, so I really want to make a splash there because people have the rulesbooks but can't find a game and don't feel comfortable enough to run one. This goes hand in hand with the need for Champions Begins or Strike Force and the like.

 

Case in point : I ran a session of Champions at "Free RPG Day" a few years ago. Made up new heroes and villains that fit superhero archetypes, and let people sit down and pick up the characters. There was some VERY basis information on the back about attacks, defenses and such. But for the most part, I ran it fast and loose, from "lets investigate" to "battle for downtime wherever". It was a lot of fun, actually, and none of the players had ever played the game before so it was rewarding.

 

I did the "random people sit down and play" RPG session because I felt like I owed it to the comic store for letting us play there for some three years rent-free, but it was also done to "evangelize" a system that had given me so much pleasure. It is part of the reason I decided to do something on Roll20: partly to improve the visibility and usability of Hero System on that VTT platform and partly to just have fun with it. 

 

"How to run a roleplaying game" seems to be badly needed.

[phoenix240]

Personally, I like the expanded Skill list of the Hero System, I'm always frustrated by short, overly broad, skill lists.

 

But, if we're on the idea of looking how to overhaul the Hero Skill System, Creating a kind of list you could Expand or Collapse as you need for each game you're playing, going with the Toolkit approach.

 

We already have this to a certain degree; Systems Operations for some games is the only skill you need to work any kind of computer like device; but some games like Star Hero will have an expanded tree breaking out Medical Equipment, Communication Equipment, etc and so on. There's no reason that concept can't be used across the board.

 

Don't feel like dealing with the majority of Interaction Skills, because your game doesn't focus on them at all? Then we use "Interaction Skill" instead of the individual Skills. The DEX Based Skills could be broken into discrete aspects as well.

 

Group Stealth, Shadowing, Locking Picking, under a Skill called "Subterfuge" instead, for example.

 

The Cost doesn't even need to change at all. A Game would use either the Broad or Narrow Skill List, or whatever combination the GM felt was appropriate of the game. The System is already designed with the idea of increased and reduced granularity in this area, we'd just need to expand it to cover the entire Skill System.

 

 

I like the Universal Skill options from The Ultimate Skill as well. They work very well for highly cinematic games and certain concepts (like long lived beings). 

[ghost-angel]

That would definitely have to be optional. ghost-angel. Simply put, the idea of an "Athletic" Skill being the only and mandatory option for the physically-inclined heroes in more realistic/granular games, for instance, rankles me.

 

That's the idea... Because I really like the longer, more individual Skill List of the current system.

 

As I said, you would either use the Broad List or the Narrow List, or the combination that fits your game and style more. A Court Intrigue Game? Probably wants distinction between the various kinds of Interaction Skills, but the Combat Related DEX Skills not as much. War Hero? Probably not using all those Interaction Skills, but definitely uses many of the DEX Skills in a more specific manner. Sci Fi Hero? Uses the Expanded Systems Operations Skill Tree.

 

You just create a Tier Bases System and choose which Tier your Game uses. It has the disadvantage of adding more front loading, but has the advantage of creating a better toolkit.

[Surrealone]

So I guess you have never convinced your friends to go see a Movie or play a game that they don't know about or are undecided about? You have never told a friend or family about a store where you got good service or a product that you really liked (ie I really like Coke Zero, it's my favorite Diet Cola. It's like regular coke, but without sugar). Perhaps even talked about a book that you read by an author that a friend or family member hadn't heard of. If you have done any of those things (and I know that everyone has enthused about some product to a friend, acquaintance or family member) then you have evangelized a product.

 

...snip...

 

So IF you want to see some sort of Advertising. Perhaps you can share your marketing strategy. Also, please point out other companies that have used your strategy (or any strategy that includes ad Buys). Please keep your examples to this century (which will give you a 16 year window).

If I have, it's been rare.  I'm not a 'Wow, you've got to see this movie!' or 'Wow, you should try this game!' kind of person -- as evidenced by very few posts on my FB wall.  Instead, I tend to render commentary about my experiences when asked directly about (a la 'Did you see that movie and, if so, what did you think of it?') or in a group discussion where it makes sense (rather like this one on this forum ... or, say, when a number of people are discussing a topic at a gathering).

 

​Development of marketing strategies ... is work.  More important, it's work with which I've no professional skill.  I'll leave the marketing up to the professionals ... who, you know, get paid for it.  That said, as a lay person even I recognize that people have to know about a product for there to be any possibility of a desire to consume it --  and it has to be available to them in the right places where their readiness to buy is piqued.  That means cons, gaming stores, online gamer loci, and the like -- with something (tangible) available to buy (not just a download/PDF).  Remember, most gamers like their rules in print (as evidenced by the collections of books most tend to have), so if inventory is too pricey to keep around, then a sample of it will suffice and the means to drive Print On Demand sales (like, say, through DriveThruRPG  -- since it's a gamer locus) could drive the sale in realtime. 

 

Are Jason and Steve regularly attending gaming cons to help drive their products' awareness?  And if so, are they driving realtime sales?  Are they incenting people to do these things for them?  And is there PoD capability at every major gaming locus -- or a link to PoD capability?  I don't honestly know, but I get the sense the answer is 'no' across the board here on this low-hanging fruit.  Pluck it first, perhaps...

 

 

That's the idea... Because I really like the longer, more individual Skill List of the current system.

 

As I said, you would either use the Broad List or the Narrow List, or the combination that fits your game and style more. A Court Intrigue Game? Probably wants distinction between the various kinds of Interaction Skills, but the Combat Related DEX Skills not as much. War Hero? Probably not using all those Interaction Skills, but definitely uses many of the DEX Skills in a more specific manner. Sci Fi Hero? Uses the Expanded Systems Operations Skill Tree.

 

You just create a Tier Bases System and choose which Tier your Game uses. It has the disadvantage of adding more front loading, but has the advantage of creating a better toolkit.

 

I agree 100% with ghost-angel on this one. 

[Scott Baker]

Does anyone know what program they are using to note where the players and NPC's are? Does the Combat Manager have a visual effect like this?

 

I think I may have found it RPTools.net can anyone confirm?

I'd say it's RPTools. Hero Combat Manager is not a virtual table top (VTT) system, so it does not present maps like this, etc.

 

EDIT: I should say that HCM does not do this now. I can't speak for the future.

[Vondy]

Could you have both the broadly competent omniskill and more specialized types of Skill divisions (Athletics versus a laundry list composed of Climbing, Hiking, Lifting, Jumping, Swimming, etc) existing in the same campaign?

 

I certainly hope so. This level of compatibility would be useful in representing the differences between both the "plausible-yet-awesome" individuals trained/experienced in multiple fields of expertise and the "larger-than-life" or "purely cinematic" folk (such as someone from another reality with loftier narrative conventions like Jack Slater of The Last Action Hero) as they interact with one another.

 

Yes. And, a lot of what I'm talking about already exists as tool-kitting options in The Ultimate Skill!

 

Its really a matter of taking the time before putting pen to paper to think about: what tropes bring this genre to life, your game-mastering style, and what is really important. If you are running a highly cinematic space pulp with broadly competent heroes and fast and loose play (Flash Gordon!) then PS: Heroically Athletic! 15- makes total sense. If, however, you are running a more "down to earth" game with more verisimilitude, or in which breaking the competencies down into more discrete parts will help differentiate characters, then a single athletics skill would run counter to your desired aims. In that case, we might have PS: Rock Climber, which would give climbing and rappelling and rope use, but would not necessarily convey acrobatics, break-fall, or other feats of physical prowess. And, like I said, you could just drop the current skill list into the current background schema, which is extensible, and call it a day. Add or subtract or rename as desired.

[Vondy]

I like the optional Universal Skill" options from The Ultimate Skill as well. They work very well for highly cinematic games and certain concepts (like long lived beings). 

 

I use this and the combined background skill option (one price for X skills as X roll) a lot.

[Ninja-Bear]

I also thought it was weird that running for heroic level games are still powers not skills.