Discussion of Hero System's "Health" on rpg.net

[Markdoc]

Now, those are the decisions I made on the game.  You don't have to agree with how my world works, you don't have to set yours up the same way.  But any game setting needs to have some sort of rules on how it operates.  The Hero system doesn't determine any of that stuff for you.  WoD does.  D&D does.  Shadowrun does.  Those are settings, as well as game systems.  I think any Hero setting needs to do the same, even if that comes at the expense of the "do anything you want" aspect of Hero. 

 

I agree absolutely with this. One of the things that a lot of people confuse is the "do anything you want" hype around the game system, and the idea that you can "do anything you want" in  a specific or a game setting. The best games I have played in have all had a defined and distinct game setting, and that almost inevitably means that some archetypes, ideas and tropes are just not going to be suitable. 

 

The key of course is getting this sorted out in advance, so that players don't waste time on a character that makes the GM go "Just .... uh ... no."

 

cheers, Mark

[Surrealone]

Any "storyteller" system is basically leaving the game in the hands of the most abusive, munchkinny type.  It can work if everyone is a fang-packing super deep role player, but if someone likes to crunch numbers and find advantages, they'll dominate the game.

 

Only if there's a weak GM that allows that kind of domination.  Solid GM's nip that crap in the bud while still maintaining flavor and campaign feel (i.e. without invoking GM fiat).  I got the sense from the rest of your post (not quoted, here) that you simply don't want to deal with that, as a GM ... and would, instead, prefer to shield yourself from it by using/choosing mechanics that normalize things to the point that you don't have to do it -- hence a preference for Hero's mechanics, as they do precisely that.  (If I misread that, then I apologize, but that's how I perceived what you were saying; certainly no offense intended.)

[bigdamnhero]

Games like World of Darkness take hand waving to Kermit the Frog introducing the Muppet Show levels of excess.  

First off: awesome visual, and a great description of why I don't care for storyteller games.

 

Any "storyteller" system is basically leaving the game in the hands of the most abusive, munchkinny type.

Only if there's a weak GM that allows that kind of domination.  Solid GM's nip that crap in the bud while still maintaining flavor and campaign feel (i.e. without invoking GM fiat).

That's been my experience too; story games with a weak GM quickly fall apart, while those with a strong GM tend to drive away the munchkins because there's so little system to game.

 

Ironically, story games talk about how they're empowering the players in a collaborative process yadda yadda, but in practice the GM has even more power than in traditional RPGs.

[Chris Goodwin]

I agree absolutely with this. One of the things that a lot of people confuse is the "do anything you want" hype around the game system, and the idea that you can "do anything you want" in  a specific or a game setting. 

 

This, a thousand times this.  I would "like" this a million times if I could.

[borbetomagnus]

 

The problem, IMO, isn't that the Hero System lacks an intro product, or lacks a Hero System Basic Complete (an oxymoron if there ever was one). It is that once new players realize that playing the real system takes work, they inevitably turn elsewhere. Or, more commonly, they hear the conventional wisdom that the Hero System is more complex than they would want, and avoid it from the start. The only way to convince them otherwise, IMO, is to turn the Hero System into something that is no longer the Hero System, and then market the hell out of it with resources Hero Games simply does not have.

 

I'm a newcomer to the HERO System and just finished playing in a short Valdorian Age 5th edition revised campaign that finally gave me exposure to the beauty of the HERO System. I purchased the two Big Blue Books and Fantasy Hero Complete and Champions Complete and have attempted to read through the combat section of Volume II: Combat and Adventuring. It's a thorough system that is consistent in design. I have no problems with crunch and have played RPGs for decades of various levels of crunch. I remember reading the AD&D 1st edition Dungeon Masters guide while a teen and it was very confusing. However, I stuck with it and along with actual play sessions learned the game rules and quirkiness of Gygax's system.

 

HERO is at least internally consistent in its design out of the gate, and this is appreciated. I like the default cinematic theme to the system, as opposed to a more realistic default universal system like GURPS -- which I've played lots of since its 3rd edition. I'm continuing to read through the Big Blue Books so I can be intimately familiar with the system, if not completely understand it without having to look it up in the book. I hope to run a Champions game this year with my kids and HERO is the system of choice since it is structured to handle any situation and with varying levels of power in the player characters.

 

Viva HERO!

[bigdamnhero]

Instead of:  Fireball -- 7D6 Energy Blast, Armor Piercing, AE: Hex, Incantations, Gestures, IIF expendible material components (easy to obtain), requires a skill roll (-1 per 20 APs) (70 Active Pts, 35 Real Pts)

You could have:  Fireball -- 7D6 normal damage.  Hits all targets within a hex.  Targets get half defense against this attack.  7 Endurance, -3 to skill roll

 

If you know the game system well, the first version makes perfect sense to you.  If you don't know it well, it's cluttered and can be confusing.  The second version is much simpler to understand for players who don't know it backwards and forwards.  Besides, once you have settled on a magic system, it's not necessary to see how the gears work.  This is a matter of presentation, which is an area where Hero has been lacking for a long time.

As an example of this: the magic system in Valdorian Age, which is pretty well constructed and fleshed out IMO, defines a standard set of Limitations that all spells must take, which are worth -2 1/2. The book even suggests that you can just list "Valdorian Magic, -2 1/2" instead of itemizing each Limitation...yet the book goes ahead and itemizes them for each of the spell listings anyway. Worse, some of the spells listed don't have all of the supposedly-required Limitations, which undermines the whole concept. Yes, it's just a matter of presentation, but presentation matters especially if you're trying to attract newbies.

[ghost-angel]

Presentation is huge, and Hero's presentation of Powers in books has always annoyed me a little bit.

[zslane]

I have no problems with crunch and have played RPGs for decades of various levels of crunch. I remember reading the AD&D 1st edition Dungeon Masters guide while a teen and it was very confusing. However, I stuck with it and along with actual play sessions learned the game rules and quirkiness of Gygax's system.

You are like me and many others here who have been with the system for a very long time. We cut our teeth on earlier games and then picked up Champions when it was much more digestible. To us it made much more sense and we liked its building-block approach to character and campaign design.

 

But from what I can tell, we are a dying breed. We no longer represent the "typical" new RPGer. Today's newcomers don't have the patience, tolerance, or interest in high crunch systems. They don't want to spend much time designing or building anything. They want it all fed to them much in the same way an MMORPG does, I guess.

 

The Hero System is simply not going to resonate with that kind of gamer, and I'm not sure there is any way to repackage or rewrite the rules so that it will. It is nice to imagine, and wish in our heart of hearts, that there is a silver bullet solution to making the Hero System attractive to the masses--which by necessity means making it easily digested by them, not just making it conceptually appealing. I'm just not convinced it is possible; and this isn't a knock on the system, but a sober acknowledgment of how the hobby has changed in terms of the needs and expectations (requirements?) of new players. Thay ain't like you and I is all I'm sayin'...

[Christopher R Taylor]

There's no need to rewrite the game system to appeal to those players.

 

All that's needed is to treat the game rules as the background and present built settings and information for players and GM's to jump into.  Look, D&D has a meta system they use to build their stuff.  That was explicit in d20 and how they had all those other games come out built around it like Pathfinder and Mutants & Marauders.  The d20 system was the background, those products were the settings.  The same thing could be done with Hero quite easily.  I'm trying to do just that with a Fantasy setting.  We're working on an intro for a Champions setting just like that.

[Ninja-Bear]

As someone who played mostly heroic-level for 3ed & 4ed, I get you. But my understanding is that Hero's supers books have always sold far better than their heroic books, so we can't really blame them too much for focusing on that.

 

[nod] And that's the thing about perceptions: even when they're not accurate, they're real to the person who holds them.

Would you like a compliation of the verbage as to why fifth comes off as bean counting?

[sureshot73]

First off it's not simply a matter of it being a younger generation vs a older generation sort of thing. Nor is it being about those who like MMOs or those who do not.Old or young Gamer the community as a whole is no longer interested in rules heavy and crunchy. If anything will prove that beyond a shadow of a doubt. It's how the gaming community voted. With their wallets. Then went to other less rules heavy and crunchy system. That's one thing no one can deny. Not even the hardcore fans of the system. While I don't have any sales figures. I do have a healthy does of commen sense. A rpg company making money. Or at the very least staying in the black. Is not going to end up in the state that Hero Games is right now. Either they try something new or streamline the system for easy of play while being less rule heavy and crunchy. Or they die a slow death. So please let's drop the whole "those young whippersnappers and their mmos ruining or hobby" routine. It's not true and quite frankly insulting. This community is already a niche within the hobby. So the solution for some here is to alienate even more interested gamers. 

 

Nor will their be a shift from rules light and less crunchy. To opposite. That's like saying we have IPADs but let's bring back computers the size of a room. Computers won't revert back to that size. Neither imo will enough of the fanbase to make enough of a profit for Hero Games. Either they try something new. Or at the very least modernize and/or streamline the system. Or gamers will stay away. 6E while I liked the changes was just a huge step backwards in terms of presentation and getting gamers interested in the rules. Already the complexity and crunchiness was kept. Others of the big size of 5E and 5ER. So their solution was to make two big books. Like it or not enough of the members of the hobby simply are not interested in that kind of presentation. With all due respect complexity and crunchiness for the sake of it is really not a selling point. If it was then systems like Fate and Savage worlds would have never become as popular. 

 

Before anyone says  "importance/legacy". That's all fine but that does not pay the bills, employees or get new books printed. Legacy is important. One also needs a profitable product as well. I'm sure that I will be told that if any major changes to the rules are ever implemented than some fans will leave. I can respect can that. Just don't complain that gamers are not buying into the system like that used. You can't have it both ways imo. No changes yet also a more profitable edition of the Hero System.

[phoenix240]

Aside from the complete books has their been much new product since 6th edition and how have they sold? How bad is the patient before we start tossing on dirt and getting out our black suits  

[phoenix240]

Presentation is huge, and Hero's presentation of Powers in books has always annoyed me a little bit.

 

What sort of improvement do you think would help? 

[phoenix240]

I think it is a fair question (but perhaps one for another thread) how much can (and should) Hero System be changed (simplified, modernized, whatever you want to call it) before its not the same system if only in feel? And is it worth it to make that level of change? Would be creating a potentially successful version of Hero System or potentially successful new game with the same name and does that matter? 

 

 

[Christopher R Taylor]

Nor will their be a shift from rules light and less crunchy. To opposite. That's like saying we have IPADs but let's bring back computers the size of a room. Computers won't revert back to that size.

 

 

Meh, more like everyone likes their cell phone small so it doesn't take up room!  They'll always be small!

 

Until someone comes up with a way to get phones to do more cool stuff like show movies.  Then they get bigger.  Then tablets come out, and they got bigger.

 

Right now people are looking for easy, fast, and simple - in all of life, not just games.  Nobody wants to read anything longer than a few lines, shaped by text and quick distractions.  For example, how many of you read sureshot's entire post all at once?  Or were put off by that "wall of text" and looked away?  Don't be ashamed, almost everyone is like that.

 

Presentation makes a huge difference.  The D&D rules are every bit as complicated as Hero.  If you try to build a character in Savage Worlds, it takes math and learning the rules to build the character.  If they put lots of explanation on how each ability and skill worked with examples, suddenly its not a pamphlet any longer; its a big book with lots of text.

 

So a low impact "welcome to hero" book needs to be super simple presentation with lots of cool images and quick bursts of text that gets people started easily and they will get more interested

 

I mean, D&D is simple!  Then you talk to the guy that knows the full contents of 3 huge books full of data, numbers, and combinations off the top of his head.

 

[sureshot73]

Again I don't think it's simply a matter of more releases. Better presentation and style and writing in the books will help. As I said a significant number of gamers in the hobby don't want rules heavy and crunchy rules. Short attention spans is a very small minor factor of the problem. It's not really the reason. If that was the case than even rule systems like Fate and Savage worlds would be hurting in terms of sales. 

[ghost-angel]

What sort of improvement do you think would help? 

 

On a very basic level, the UI for the book is difficult to parse.

 

the biggest thing about Hero is How Stuff Is Built; and to show how it's built, you need to show all the pieces in a way that can be easily read - and not just by people who have been reading Powers for a few decades, but especially new players.

 

 

I grabbed the following from Lucius' list of various water power builds in the Drinking Water thread as an exmaple;

 

Look at this mess:

Just fill it with the Fire Hose: (Total: 84 Active Cost, 28 Real Cost) Dispel 4d6, Does Knockback (+1/4), Area Of Effect (4m Radius; +1/4), Double Knockback (+1/2), Fire Powers (+1/2), Double Knockback (+1/2), Double Knockback (+1/2), Cumulative (96 points; +1), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1), Autofire (5 shots; +1/2), Non-Standard Attack Power (+1) (84 Active Points); Conditional Power Must be standing by the pool to change it (-1 1/2), Reduced By Range (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4) (Real Cost: 28)

 

This is a Hero Designer display which is better than the books in that listed AP & RP twice it at least puts one of them at the start of the build, the books rarely (if ever) do something so helpful. Heck most of the Character builds (all? Didn't actually look at every book just now) don't even list Active Points, just Real Points/Cost; totally useless for when Adjustment Powers come into play.

 

Now:

 

Just fill it with the Fire Hose: Dispel 4d6

Does Knockback (+1/4), Area Of Effect (4m Radius; +1/4), Double Knockback (+1/2), Fire Powers (+1/2), Double Knockback (+1/2), Double Knockback (+1/2), Cumulative (96 points; +1), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1), Autofire (5 shots; +1/2), Non-Standard Attack Power (+1) (84 Active Points)

Conditional Power Must be standing by the pool to change it (-1 1/2), Reduced By Range (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4) (Real Cost: 28)

 

It's still a bit of a jumble, but mostly from just sheet size. The build is easily dividable into separate pieces with meaning with just some line breaks:

 

Name; Base Power (what you roll, what the Power is)

Advantages (total Active Points after all are applied)

Limitations (total Real Points after all are applied)

 

We could probably make this is even better with things like totaling up Advantages and Limitations and possibly even adding Base Points.

 

Yeah, it might take more space, and this may be an example with a lot more Advantages & Limitations than you normally see, but the extremes start to show us the jumble we parse constantly.

 

I find the listing of Active Points in the middle of the build in the book especially problematic, I have to scan the entire build to find the stop of Advantages (or Base if none) to find the AP. That's annoying.

 

It could easily be listed thusly:

 

Just fill it with the Fire Hose: Dispel 4d6 (Total: 84 Active Cost, 28 Real Cost)

Does Knockback (+1/4), Area Of Effect (4m Radius; +1/4), Double Knockback (+1/2), Fire Powers (+1/2), Double Knockback (+1/2), Double Knockback (+1/2), Cumulative (96 points; +1), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1), Autofire (5 shots; +1/2), Non-Standard Attack Power (+1)

Conditional Power Must be standing by the pool to change it (-1 1/2), Reduced By Range (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4)

 

Name; Power & Dice You Roll (Active & Real Points) [You can even add END or Charges here if using something other than official Char Sheet 3-col breakdown]

Advantages

Limiatations

 

Points are scanned faster (they're always at the front, and together); Again simple line breaks turn a jumble into a more readable aspects; Benefits / Restrictions are not all together in one massive block. (I didn't build the power, I have no idea what it has Double Knockback 3 times either... but picturing it is funny).

[Nolgroth]

I was about to comment on the build itself when I caught myself.

 

I would actually break it down to even more simple but more space

 

Just fill it with the Fire Hose

Dispel 4d6 (Active Cost: 84, Real Cost: 28, END/Charges Cost: 0/0)

Advantages: Does Knockback (+1/4), Area Of Effect (4m Radius; +1/4), Double Knockback (+1/2), Fire Powers (+1/2), Double Knockback (+1/2), Double Knockback (+1/2), Cumulative (96 points; +1), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1), Autofire (5 shots; +1/2), Non-Standard Attack Power (+1)

Limitations: Conditional Power Must be standing by the pool to change it (-1 1/2), Reduced By Range (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4)

[phoenix240]

On a very basic level, the UI for the book is difficult to parse.

 

the biggest thing about Hero is How Stuff Is Built; and to show how it's built, you need to show all the pieces in a way that can be easily read - and not just by people who have been reading Powers for a few decades, but especially new players.

 

 

I grabbed the following from Lucius' list of various water power builds in the Drinking Water thread as an exmaple;

 

Look at this mess:

Just fill it with the Fire Hose: (Total: 84 Active Cost, 28 Real Cost) Dispel 4d6, Does Knockback (+1/4), Area Of Effect (4m Radius; +1/4), Double Knockback (+1/2), Fire Powers (+1/2), Double Knockback (+1/2), Double Knockback (+1/2), Cumulative (96 points; +1), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1), Autofire (5 shots; +1/2), Non-Standard Attack Power (+1) (84 Active Points); Conditional Power Must be standing by the pool to change it (-1 1/2), Reduced By Range (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4) (Real Cost: 28)

 

This is a Hero Designer display which is better than the books in that listed AP & RP twice it at least puts one of them at the start of the build, the books rarely (if ever) do something so helpful. Heck most of the Character builds (all? Didn't actually look at every book just now) don't even list Active Points, just Real Points/Cost; totally useless for when Adjustment Powers come into play.

 

Now:

 

Just fill it with the Fire Hose: Dispel 4d6

Does Knockback (+1/4), Area Of Effect (4m Radius; +1/4), Double Knockback (+1/2), Fire Powers (+1/2), Double Knockback (+1/2), Double Knockback (+1/2), Cumulative (96 points; +1), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1), Autofire (5 shots; +1/2), Non-Standard Attack Power (+1) (84 Active Points)

Conditional Power Must be standing by the pool to change it (-1 1/2), Reduced By Range (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4) (Real Cost: 28)

 

It's still a bit of a jumble, but mostly from just sheet size. The build is easily dividable into separate pieces with meaning with just some line breaks:

 

Name; Base Power (what you roll, what the Power is)

Advantages (total Active Points after all are applied)

Limitations (total Real Points after all are applied)

 

We could probably make this is even better with things like totaling up Advantages and Limitations and possibly even adding Base Points.

 

Yeah, it might take more space, and this may be an example with a lot more Advantages & Limitations than you normally see, but the extremes start to show us the jumble we parse constantly.

 

I find the listing of Active Points in the middle of the build in the book especially problematic, I have to scan the entire build to find the stop of Advantages (or Base if none) to find the AP. That's annoying.

 

It could easily be listed thusly:

 

Just fill it with the Fire Hose: Dispel 4d6 (Total: 84 Active Cost, 28 Real Cost)

Does Knockback (+1/4), Area Of Effect (4m Radius; +1/4), Double Knockback (+1/2), Fire Powers (+1/2), Double Knockback (+1/2), Double Knockback (+1/2), Cumulative (96 points; +1), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1), Autofire (5 shots; +1/2), Non-Standard Attack Power (+1)

Conditional Power Must be standing by the pool to change it (-1 1/2), Reduced By Range (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4)

 

Name; Power & Dice You Roll (Active & Real Points) [You can even add END or Charges here if using something other than official Char Sheet 3-col breakdown]

Advantages

Limiatations

 

Points are scanned faster (they're always at the front, and together); Again simple line breaks turn a jumble into a more readable aspects; Benefits / Restrictions are not all together in one massive block. (I didn't build the power, I have no idea what it has Double Knockback 3 times either... but picturing it is funny).

 

 

This is allot like we've done new players to help them and its been pretty useful. 

[massey]

If you really wanted the Hero System to flourish, you would need to spend a good amount of money to get a lot of product on the shelf.  I'd say Hero is in the second tier of RPGs.  It has an enduring base of loyal fans that keep the game alive, but hasn't been popular enough to continuously keep it in print.  So it will stick around, and maybe every 5 or 8 years or something, someone will make a push to make a bunch of stuff for it.  And then it goes back into hibernation to sleep the Odin Sleep.

 

It's been said in other threads, but I think Hero would need 1) rich, detailed settings, and 2) a really easy to understand intro product.

[Joe Walsh]

Again I don't think it's simply a matter of more releases. Better presentation and style and writing in the books will help. As I said a significant number of gamers in the hobby don't want rules heavy and crunchy rules. Short attention spans is a very small minor factor of the problem. It's not really the reason. If that was the case than even rule systems like Fate and Savage worlds would be hurting in terms of sales. 

 

I remember when the Coca-Cola company wanted to take market share from Pepsi. They did studies and focus groups, and found out that people who drink Pepsi prefer its sweeter taste. So the Coca-Cola company decided to come up with a sweeter version of their famous soft-drink. They did blind taste tests, and their new, sweeter soft drink was preferred by a huge margin. So they bottled it and marketed it...and it was a huge flop. People may prefer sweeter soft drinks in blind taste tests, but no one actually wanted to buy a sweeter version of Coke. The ones who wanted a sweeter soda liked Pepsi and weren't interested in changing. The ones who liked Coke's traditional taste weren't interested in this new, sweeter version.  The new Coke was a huge flop, and an embarrassment for the company.

[Surrealone]

I remember when the Coca-Cola company wanted to take market share from Pepsi. They did studies and focus groups, and found out that people who drink Pepsi prefer its sweeter taste. So the Coca-Cola company decided to come up with a sweeter version of their famous soft-drink. They did blind taste tests, and their new, sweeter soft drink was preferred by a huge margin. So they bottled it and marketed it...and it was a huge flop. People may prefer sweeter soft drinks in blind taste tests, but no one actually wanted to buy a sweeter version of Coke. The ones who wanted a sweeter soda liked Pepsi and weren't interested in changing. The ones who liked Coke's traditional taste weren't interested in this new, sweeter version.  The new Coke was a huge flop, and an embarrassment for the company.

 

 

New Coke -- the preferred soft drink of alleged serial rapists everywhere!

[Tasha]

First off it's not simply a matter of it being a younger generation vs a older generation sort of thing. Nor is it being about those who like MMOs or those who do not.Old or young Gamer the community as a whole is no longer interested in rules heavy and crunchy. If anything will prove that beyond a shadow of a doubt. It's how the gaming community voted. With their wallets. Then went to other less rules heavy and crunchy system. That's one thing no one can deny. Not even the hardcore fans of the system. While I don't have any sales figures. I do have a healthy does of commen sense. A rpg company making money. Or at the very least staying in the black. Is not going to end up in the state that Hero Games is right now. Either they try something new or streamline the system for easy of play while being less rule heavy and crunchy. Or they die a slow death. So please let's drop the whole "those young whippersnappers and their mmos ruining or hobby" routine. It's not true and quite frankly insulting. This community is already a niche within the hobby. So the solution for some here is to alienate even more interested gamers. 

 

Nor will their be a shift from rules light and less crunchy. To opposite. That's like saying we have IPADs but let's bring back computers the size of a room. Computers won't revert back to that size. Neither imo will enough of the fanbase to make enough of a profit for Hero Games. Either they try something new. Or at the very least modernize and/or streamline the system. Or gamers will stay away. 6E while I liked the changes was just a huge step backwards in terms of presentation and getting gamers interested in the rules. Already the complexity and crunchiness was kept. Others of the big size of 5E and 5ER. So their solution was to make two big books. Like it or not enough of the members of the hobby simply are not interested in that kind of presentation. With all due respect complexity and crunchiness for the sake of it is really not a selling point. If it was then systems like Fate and Savage worlds would have never become as popular. 

 

Before anyone says  "importance/legacy". That's all fine but that does not pay the bills, employees or get new books printed. Legacy is important. One also needs a profitable product as well. I'm sure that I will be told that if any major changes to the rules are ever implemented than some fans will leave. I can respect can that. Just don't complain that gamers are not buying into the system like that used. You can't have it both ways imo. No changes yet also a more profitable edition of the Hero System.

 

I keep hearing how players only like lite crunch free games, but I would point out that Pathfinder is a VERY High crunch game. It's always in the top 5 (Top 2) RPG sellers, next to D&D. So I have a real hard time buying that players won't learn a complicated game. Also unlike Pathfinder and D&D, Hero's difficulty is mostly "Frontloaded" in Character generation. Once characters are built the game is actually fairly simple to play. The systems are very consistant thoughtout the ruleset.

[Tasha]

I remember when the Coca-Cola company wanted to take market share from Pepsi. They did studies and focus groups, and found out that people who drink Pepsi prefer its sweeter taste. So the Coca-Cola company decided to come up with a sweeter version of their famous soft-drink. They did blind taste tests, and their new, sweeter soft drink was preferred by a huge margin. So they bottled it and marketed it...and it was a huge flop. People may prefer sweeter soft drinks in blind taste tests, but no one actually wanted to buy a sweeter version of Coke. The ones who wanted a sweeter soda liked Pepsi and weren't interested in changing. The ones who liked Coke's traditional taste weren't interested in this new, sweeter version.  The new Coke was a huge flop, and an embarrassment for the company.

 

New Coke is a Sugared version of Diet Coke. They had the top Diet soda, but regular Coke was being out sold by Pepsi. So they did a sugared version of Diet Coke, and like you said all of the blind taste tests people preferred the new version. IMHO if they had marketed both New Coke and Classic Coke, they would have avoided much of the rancor. It would have allowed customers that liked the old version to keep buying what they liked. Then perhaps they could have gotten more people drinking new Coke.

 

Glad they Make Coke Zero. I dislike Diet Coke. It's not as bad as diet Pepsi, but still not my favorite. So Now I Drink Coke Zero and I am happy with the taste of my sugar free soda.

[Christopher R Taylor]

I remember when the Coca-Cola company wanted to take market share from Pepsi. They did studies and focus groups, and found out that people who drink Pepsi prefer its sweeter taste. So the Coca-Cola company decided to come up with a sweeter version of their famous soft-drink. 

 

 

There's actually a back story to that involving ownership of the coke recipe and corporate trickery as well.

 

In hero terms though, yeah: don't mess up the basic product, just make the break in point easier.