Longevity: What Purpose Does it Serve?

[Manic Typist]

Interestingly, no one has argued that Longevity should be used as a skill.

 

My example, that you quoted, described it as a modifier or event just an justification to ALLOW a roll to take place.

 

So it would be a way for a PC to say "Hey, this Skill that I paid points for... could I maybe apply it to this situation based on this Perk/Talent/Power/etc. that I also paid for?"

 

 

Example: PCs encounter a strange script in a burial mound that they fell into (it was hidden below ground and previously unknown - things had been built up over it long ago).

 

There's no record of the script in any official history because the civilization that built them disappeared before the current civilization ever even began to arise in the area- it's a completely lost tribe that was not recorded at all by anyone else.

 

KS: History of Midland Region will NOT include this, because this is from a history that predates that region even if it occupies the same geographical space.

 

However, with Longevity, a GM might allow this KS to be relevant- because the PC's knowledge from experience could include things not available to someone who learned this history via books/oral history.

[kukuli]

 Some games run for many in-game years. If you are running a world where people age, then longevity makes sense.  Longevity may not make sense in all games but in my pulp/steampunk game we have a character for whom it is a central theme.  He has even made a cameo in the players modern urban fantasy game. With time travel a possibility in my game (which is how they went from pulp to steampunk), it may well be an important theme later.

[Mister E]

I played an undead slaying elf a long time ago.

 

The one time I fought a ghost the gm ruled that the aging attack was proportional to my total lifespan.

 

So each negative energy attack aged me a bunch of years extra more that normal.

 

The concept of longevity or being an elf did nothing for me.

 

It was a rude awaking.

[Wardsman]

Pretty much what it says in the title.

 

I got to thinking about things you don't pay points for and my mind swung around to the longevity of certain species archetypes. Then I got to thinking that, aside from defending against some really esoteric NND attack builds, Longevity basically serves no real purpose in the game. Do you have campaigns that run a thousand years game time? Does the elf survive and all of his not so immortal companions die off somewhere in there? It there a material benefit to Longevity in your game?

 

I ask, because the more I think about it, the more Life Support: Longevity is one of those things like KS: Garbage Pail Kids. It might come up during the game but chances are very likely than an entire campaign can come and go without nary the mention of relative age. I want to see how Herodom Assembled handles this topic. Without a compelling reason, Longevity is about to go into the 0 Point flavor ability category.

There are campaigns  that do strange things with time.

 

A standard Pendragon game represent one year. Playing once a week for 3 months is twelve years in the character's life.

Twice a week for three months is 24 years.

 

There ar several RPG's where flashbacks in can be be played out just like in Highlander Movies and TV shows.

There is one where the players are dragons reborn as humans and karmically tied to both friends and foes and must rediscover their past.

Notice this is a theme in the stories about Hawkman and Hawkgirl. Though they do it thru reincarnation.

 

It pops up some styles of Vampire as they are effectively immortal. 

Vandal Sage and Immortal Man have this built in as does Nabu the lord of Order.

 

It is different type of story telling technique but a few of your long lived PC's and NPC's could have flashback scenes.

[JohnnyAppleseed098]

One of the best things I have done with Longevity (especially Immortality) is that I can use previous PCs as NPCs in later games, except much more powerful. Many of my players liked that. They consider it like this: I really like this character. Do I want to make him immortal so that I can use him or he appears again? Investment is the name of the game involving Longevity.

[dmjalund]

it a,lows you to play the same character in a modern Champions setting as well as a Champions 3000 setting

[Hugh Neilson]

it a,lows you to play the same character in a modern Champions setting as well as a Champions 3000 setting

To play the Devil's Advocate: So you want me to pay points to be allowed a similar character design in two different games? Does Charlie, who never plays anything but a Brick, and their personalities are interchangeable, have to pay a "similar character" point tax as well? Does the cost scale with the number of different campaigns the same, or similar, character is used in? Does the cost vary with how similar the characters are?

 

What makes longevity cool? The fact I spent points on it? I can write a cool background that costs no points. As was noted above, that teenager who just discovered he will live forever costs the same as the character who has lived from cave man days and has a multi-chapter background linking him with hundreds of historical people and events. Their Life Support costs are identical, but one gets way more "Cool".

[Christopher]

it a,lows you to play the same character in a modern Champions setting as well as a Champions 3000 setting

You do not need immortaltiy for that. Just some Hybernation, Timetravel or similar thing written into the backstory. If anything not having hybernated/lived in another dimension needs you to explain why is not well known/was killed by one of his enemies ages ago/has much more power due to experience.

Just ask Captain America on the Hybernation Part. Did he need a "LS: Breathing, Aging, Food, Water; Only while encased in ice[-2]" power for that? No he did not, because his ability to use that in play is way too limited to even consider it.

 

I often use things that are needed for the Origin, but on a dedicated "one time use" basis. Timetravel where you only got one shoot (because the time machine explodes/follows a certain idea of time travel). Temporal Hybernation that was based on specific, not replicateable circumstances. Something like a Druid having a Tree form spell that allows to survive the ages, but without active participation in the flow of the world. Once even single Telphathic abilities (a spell or serum) that backfired, allowing some parts of the story to take place (in this case the Hero copying the mad scientists knowledge - mostly).

 

Interestingly, no one has argued that Longevity should be used as a skill.

 

My example, that you quoted, described it as a modifier or event just an justification to ALLOW a roll to take place.

 

So it would be a way for a PC to say "Hey, this Skill that I paid points for... could I maybe apply it to this situation based on this Perk/Talent/Power/etc. that I also paid for?"

 

 

Example: PCs encounter a strange script in a burial mound that they fell into (it was hidden below ground and previously unknown - things had been built up over it long ago).

 

There's no record of the script in any official history because the civilization that built them disappeared before the current civilization ever even began to arise in the area- it's a completely lost tribe that was not recorded at all by anyone else.

 

KS: History of Midland Region will NOT include this, because this is from a history that predates that region even if it occupies the same geographical space.

 

However, with Longevity, a GM might allow this KS to be relevant- because the PC's knowledge from experience could include things not available to someone who learned this history via books/oral history.

I get the argument, but the premise is flawed. This is not a show of skill, but reasoning why the story goes forawrd.

The character having that long life is the reason he can identify that tablet and thus is the reason why there even is that tablet.

 

In detective/mystery adventures information control is paramount. So it is either planned in well ahead (does not need points) or will wreck significant parts of the story by shortcutting the flow (not having paid with points for it will avoid any bad feelings about being "entiteled" to that knowledge).

Never forget that "what not to spend points on" is also/especially benefits the GM:

If you did not pay points for those "Justice League Earpiece Communicators", then he can turn them off without any powerbuild if the story demands it.

Like back when Superman and Huntress resqued question form Cadmus in JLU.

Or turn them into plot devices, like that time the Com system was suborned by Luthor in "Grudge Match" Episode of JLU.

 

There are campaigns  that do strange things with time.

 

A standard Pendragon game represent one year. Playing once a week for 3 months is twelve years in the character's life.

Twice a week for three months is 24 years.

 

There ar several RPG's where flashbacks in can be be played out just like in Highlander Movies and TV shows.

There is one where the players are dragons reborn as humans and karmically tied to both friends and foes and must rediscover their past.

Notice this is a theme in the stories about Hawkman and Hawkgirl. Though they do it thru reincarnation.

 

It pops up some styles of Vampire as they are effectively immortal. 

Vandal Sage and Immortal Man have this built in as does Nabu the lord of Order.

 

It is different type of story telling technique but a few of your long lived PC's and NPC's could have flashback scenes.

Those are not every Herogames Scenarios. Those are in part specific settings and/or Roleplaying systems design around such a premise.

That those scenarios might exist is propably the only reason that LS: Immortality has a value to begin with. It is one of those off-chance guideline values like "NND: Hardened Flash Defense".

[Wardsman]

 

Those are not every Herogames Scenarios. Those are in part specific settings and/or Roleplaying systems design around such a premise.

That those scenarios might exist is propably the only reason that LS: Immortality has a value to begin with. It is one of those off-chance guideline values like "NND: Hardened Flash Defense".

I'm learning there is no standard Hero Game. Different tables have ways of running it.

As someone pointed when comparing the hero cost to GURPS cost it doesn't wreck hero that much, so it is cheap.

 

As one of the premier Universal Rules systems, and arguably one of the first, I'd expect Hero to have some way of dealing with it.

[InfiniteKarma]

I'd say the trouble with Longevity (and a lot of other non-combat powers) in Hero, is that it's too expensive for the strict interpretation, and if it gave common sense results, it would be impossibly powerful. If a campaign runs for five centuries, and the non-immortal characters automatically die, that seems like poor planning on the part of the GM. If all the characters are required to buy Longevity, why isn't is just free campaign flavor? And if non-immortal characters get plot immunity and skip between centuries, why spend the points on Longevity when it's being handwaved?

 

Time travel is another great example. If a player got the greenlight to take arbitrary time travel, and paid the ~60 points for it, he's able to hop around at will. As a plot device, that's extremely cool, but it's probably something both necessary to the plot, and partly out of the player's control to use (probably with no conscious control, or somesuch). Why should a player pay any points for something that doesn't make his character meaningfully more capable?

 

On the other hand, if the player used time travel to solve problems at will, setting traps, knowing the future, or undoing misfortunes, 60 points doesn't come close to enough.

 

The only way to balance time travel, or longevity, is to NOT use it as an "I win" button, and incorporate it into the FX of the campaign. At that point, it should be extremely inexpensive, or free, because it's not giving the characters anything they aren't already paying points for elsewhere.

[dmjalund]

it a,lows you to play the same character in a modern Champions setting as well as a Champions 3000 setting

 

 

You do not need immortaltiy for that. Just some Hybernation, Timetravel or similar thing written into the backstory. If anything not having hybernated/lived in another dimension needs you to explain why is not well known/was killed by one of his enemies ages ago/has much more power due to experience.

Just ask Captain America on the Hybernation Part. Did he need a "LS: Breathing, Aging, Food, Water; Only while encased in ice[-2]" power for that? No he did not, because his ability to use that in play is way too limited to even consider it.

but oImmortality allows you to be a street level character in Modern Champions and a Cosmic Powered character in Champions 3000 (loads of XP + 1 or 2 radiation accidents)

[Wardsman]

I'd say the trouble with Longevity (and a lot of other non-combat powers) in Hero, is that it's too expensive for the strict interpretation, 

 

 

Seriously?

[Nolgroth]

I'd say the trouble with Longevity (and a lot of other non-combat powers) in Hero, is that it's too expensive for the strict interpretation, 

 

 

Seriously?

 

I see where he is going with that. If it is so integral to the campaign for a character to have an ability, they should just have it. I actually believe that, in some games, the concept of longevity is irrelevant to the scope of the campaign. It is what got me asking the question in the first place.

 

If the scope of the campaign stretches long enough where age is going to be an issue, then yeah, I actually think that those folks that didn't buy longevity should eventually age out and pass on. Somebody mentioned Pendragon (I think) above as an example where the years can tally up pretty quickly. Ars Magica is another setting where everything that happens between adventures takes season(s) to accomplish (spell research, etc.). I don't know that I would have much fun with maintaining the records for such a game, but I can sort of see the attraction.

[massey]

but oImmortality allows you to be a street level character in Modern Champions and a Cosmic Powered character in Champions 3000 (loads of XP + 1 or 2 radiation accidents)

 

You can have that anyway.  You don't have to spend points for it.

 

Modern street-level Champions game, begins play in 2012, lasts until 2014.  "I'm gonna be a Batman type guy!"

Galactic Champions game, begins play in 2015.  "i wanna play my Batman guy again!"  GM: "Wouldn't he be dead by now?"  Player:  "Nah, he got reincarnated as a true Living Urban Legend of the Night!"

 

You still don't need to really spend points for that.

[massey]

Well, the problem that LS: Aging has, is that for most types of campaigns, it isn't really useful.  Let's look at certain characters and see what LS: Aging really does for them.

 

Legolas the elf, Lord of the Rings.  Legolas is one of the more badass members of the party, particularly in the movies.  But the books and films take place over the course of just a year or two.  Within the context of the campaign, Legolas' eternal youth doesn't give him any advantage over the other characters.  Most of his lifespan has been spent hanging out with other elves.  He doesn't have a great knowledge of history or anything like that, he leaves that to Gandalf (who also likely has LS: Aging, but has spent his points differently than Legolas).  You could say "well he's really tough because he's immortal and he's had more time to get good", but that just means you're giving the guy a lot more points because he spent a few on Life Support.

 

Silver Surfer, Marvel Comics.  The Surfer is apparently unaging.  He saved his home planet, Zenn-La, from Galactus some long period of time ago. He traveled the spaceways as an NPC, until he came to Earth at the beginning of the Fantastic Four's campaign.  He breaks free from Galactus' control and basically begins his adventuring career at this point.  In Marvel's sliding time-scale, he has been an active character for maybe 8 or 9 years.

 

Richie, Highlander the series.  Richie is the dumb kid who tags along with the main character.  Unknown to Richie and the audience, but totally known to the main character, Richie is an immortal whose powers haven't kicked in yet.  At the end of season 2 or so, Richie gets shot and dies, only to revive when his immortality becomes active.  Richie remains a dumb kid, learning how to be immortal, for the next season or two, until he is beheaded in a duel and dies for good.

 

Lt. Commander Data, Star Trek: TNG.  Data is an android.  He doesn't seem to age.  He's a very smart character, and has lots of skills due to his computer mind.  He's in the show from the first episode to the last episode, just like most of the other characters.  He's one of the more popular characters in the show, despite a clear lack of being Will Riker.

 

 

 

What does a lack of aging do for these characters?  Well, other than the fact that theoretically they don't get old in the future, not a whole lot.  I mean, Richie doesn't even live to the end of the show.  Those were clearly 5 points wasted for him.  I would suggest the that, other than as a defense for weird NNDs, the power is so rarely utilized in-game that it should be more of a background note than anything else.  I'd say for most characters in most campaigns, it's the sort of thing that should be a much-delayed purchase.  Instead of buying the power at the beginning, you should buy whatever other abilities your "immunity to aging" has given you, and have an agreement between you and the GM that at some point in the future, maybe by the end of the campaign (maybe after), your character would have purchased LS: Age.

[Steve]

This is one of those cases where the RAW price would just need to be modified for your campaign instead of using the granular price structure. Instead of spending five points, make unaging LS cost only a point. It's still just as effective if aging-based attacks occur than if it cost five points. If spending that one point still bugs you, give each character a certain amount of freebie backgrounds points to spend on less useful skills and very minor abilities that will rarely come into play. That one point could be spent out of that instead of buying something like a KS: Elvish Cuisine or KS: Dwarven Ale.

[Manic Typist]

I get the argument, but the premise is flawed. This is not a show of skill, but reasoning why the story goes forawrd.

The character having that long life is the reason he can identify that tablet and thus is the reason why there even is that tablet.

The premise is sound; your assumptions are flawed.

 

Finding the MacGuffin that the PCs must find to advance the story is something that a smart GM will guarantee and should not be subject to the risks of capricious rolls.

 

Rewarding a PC for the clever use of abilities by paying attention to the setting and engaging with the full depth of their character sheet... is an optional thing, a bonus.

 

Something a good GM would look for opportunities to give to their PCs, but not required to advance the plot. So in the original scenario, it would be to gain non-critical (but still useful or at least interesting) info....perhaps a warning about a deadly golem left behind to guard the MacGuffin?

[Hugh Neilson]

At the same time, "my character is immortal" as a 3 point background ability should be no more useful than "Profession: Police Detective" with the relevant background. The latter does not give you a network of informants, several investigative skills and contacts in the police, justice and government systems without further points spent.

 

But it comes back to "if he has to pay 3 points, the game needs to treat those three points as having impact in the game".

[massey]

At the same time, "my character is immortal" as a 3 point background ability should be no more useful than "Profession: Police Detective" with the relevant background. The latter does not give you a network of informants, several investigative skills and contacts in the police, justice and government systems without further points spent.

 

But it comes back to "if he has to pay 3 points, the game needs to treat those three points as having impact in the game".

 

That's a good point.  Ideally, the GM would go over your character and say "oh yeah, that's never gonna come up in game, so you can have that for free".  I would think a lot of things people put on their character sheet would actually fall into that category.  Lots of the little useless skills and perks that people take, that the GM knows will never be used, should get their points refunded to you.

[Manic Typist]

At the same time, "my character is immortal" as a 3 point background ability should be no more useful than "Profession: Police Detective" with the relevant background. The latter does not give you a network of informants, several investigative skills and contacts in the police, justice and government systems without further points spent.

 

But it comes back to "if he has to pay 3 points, the game needs to treat those three points as having impact in the game".

Yes, exactly.

[mallet]

How about making some forms of immortality a Regeneration-based power, rather then Life Support?

 

Something like:

 

Immortal: Regeneration (1 BODY per Week) (2 Active Points); Only to repair damage caused by ageing (-1) (Real cost: 1)

 

This assumes that ageing is a form of damage the body starts to take over time (not crazy as lots of medical research now shows that that ageing is in fact cause by our bodies, more specifically our DNA and cells, breaking down. Wrinkles and grey hair are the first signs as the skin looses it's elasticity and your hair follicles lose the ability to nourish the hair.) So Regeneration makes sense as it heals damage to your DNA, etc... 

 

In comics, this is also shown to be how Wolverine is immortal, his body keeps regenerating itself to his "base" level/age repairing any damage cause by ageing. When his regeneration power fade or weakens that is when he starts to age (so we get Old Man Logan). 

 

This also seems to be how the immortals in Highlander work as well (except they also have the Resurrection adder added to it).  

 

What is good with this type of immortality is that characters can be "aged" rapidly by powers/effects in the short-term (ie, an adventure or session) but then they would slowly recover afterwards (possibly between sessions) as their regeneration slowly "resets" them to their "base" age. 

 

Add a Focus to it, and you could also simulate "The Portrait of Dorian Grey" type of Immortality. 

 

I think this style of Longevity works better for living/breathing/blood circulating characters, not only because it is cheaper then the 3-pt Life Support version, but it allows other effects to be added and can be Drained, Suppressed, etc... 

 

For Mystical beings, Robots or Undead (Vampires, Ghosts, etc.) then the 3-pt life support version might be better as (at least to me) it represents a never changing, stable, static more mystical form of immortality. 

 

Of course one drawback (in a logical sense, maybe not a RPG sense) is that then every character with Regeneration should basically be Immortal if they really do have "true" regeneration as their bodies would constantly be healing any age related damage they take, not just injuries. But then in this case maybe Immortality should just be a +1pt Adder on to Regeneration the same way Heal Limbs is +5pts and Resurrection is +20

[Nolgroth]

Interesting idea. I like it.

[mallet]

This question got me thinking, and since this is Hero anything is possible, how would we build/model Ageing as a power/attack by "the universe"?

 

Roughly might it be something like this:

 

Natural Ageing:  Major Transform 20d6 (Normal character into Feeble character, Regeneration), Partial Transform (+1/2), Does BODY (+1), Attack Versus Alternate Defense (Life Support (Longevity); +1 1/2) (800 Active Points); Damage Over Time, Lock out (cannot be applied multiple times, automatically occurs when target reaches 25 years of age) (15 damage increments, damage occurs every 5 Years, can be negated by regeneration or healthy living; -8 1/4) (Real Cost: 86)

 

What other builds might there be?

[whitekeys]

The way I like to think of it is it's useful, not for PC's, but for determining the relative power (points) of NPC characters. If the NPC is supposed to be a knowledge-font, for whatever reason, this might be purchased as KSs, but it could also be purchased as Longevity, reflecting that the NPC has been around for a long time and can possibly drudge up memories, or even items, from ages past. A specific memory is a little different than a KS in my opinion. And as many people have already said, it's well priced, etc. for that purpose.

 

Sorry if anyone's already mentioned this!

[Duke Bushido]

I don't have anything new write-up wise or alternate suggestion-wise for this thread, but going back to the original question, I do have something to mention:

 

I was introduced to Champions in '82.  I honestly can't tell you how many characters I've made over the years, or how many campaigns I've been in-- no; I don't want to sound like a war veteran; It's just that it's been 30-odd years of a really good time.

 

Over the years, I've only made four or five characters with Life Support: Immune to Aging.  Two retired; one was killed (Noble, heroic self-sacrifice; great way to go, from a player's standpoint ), and one was lost in the unexplored vastness of the cosmos (at my request: I was just _so tired_ of playing that character.  He was a favorite of most of my friends at the table, and they would often request I use him, but I just wanted to move on, you know?).

 

After thirty years, there's one I still bring to the table when his original GM is running something of the appropriate power level.  Even when he's running a near-future or far-future setting.  He allows this because the character is, well-- immortal.  It makes a sort of sense.  of course, if he gets killed, then this won't be happening anymore.

 

Only once has another player squawked about this: "If Duke gets to use that guy, why don't I get to use this guy?"

 

To which the GM (we'll call him "Jim"  ) replied : "This campaign is going to take place a hundred and fifty years after the one we just finished!  Is your character immortal or something?"

 

"No; of course not!"

 

"Well his _is_."

 

And that was the only complaint, ever.

 

 

I know: it's not much.  But it does point out one interesting bit of utility for the power.