Can we forgive old movies?

[Tech priest support]

12 hours ago, Hermit said:

If Fantastic Four 2: Rise of the Silver Surfer and the Green Lantern movie have taught me anything, it's you should try not to have your main antagonist be a nebulous cloud thing from space

Speaking of STTMP the cloud was just a power field around v'ger it generated possibly for protective reasons.  It was visible due to interaction with interstellar hydrogen. The actual v'ger model was accidentally heavily damaged and unusable for complete shots which is why then full v'ger wasn't seen until the CGI version was made and added in later.

 

[Ragitsu]

I find it very difficult to watch Westerns prior to the 1980s or perhaps 1970s. The brownface and redface (not to mention gouda-thick put-on accents) is simply too distracting.

[Badger]

12 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

Well the movie was sort of an homage to 2001, which moved at a stately pace and focused on interesting imagery and scenery.  The problem was it went too slowly at times.  The slow reveal of the Enterprise, I did not mind.  That was kind of a love note to fans and the ship.  But 5 minutes of space cloud or drifting slowly past odd technological structures, that really was not needed.

 

Pretty much eliminating those 2 parts of nothing would have made it much better  (that and the part with wormhole mishap, that whole audio/video distortion was nothing but annoying, it was outer space version of chalkboard scratching)

 

*Ok, if you wanted to slow reveal the Enterprise for the fans, but slow, not ultra-slow

 

 

[Michael Hopcroft]

22 minutes ago, Ragitsu said:

I find it very difficult to watch Westerns prior to the 1980s or perhaps 1970s. The brownface and redface (not to mention gouda-thick put-on accents) is simply too distracting.

I don't think I could watch The Searchers, legendary a film as it is, because it would be unbearable today. If your response to their even being a possibility of your daughter being touched without her consent by a member of a racial group you despise is to kill her horribly, you've got a serious problem, bub. What's worse? Most of the audience when the film was made had no trouble with that attitude at all. None.

[Ragitsu]

1 hour ago, Michael Hopcroft said:

I don't think I could watch The Searchers, legendary a film as it is, because it would be unbearable today. If your response to their even being a possibility of your daughter being touched without her consent by a member of a racial group you despise is to kill her horribly, you've got a serious problem, bub.

 

The in-universe bigotry (extremism?) is something I can see myself letting slide, if only because people of that era did possess decidedly uglier views on ethnicity. However, I wouldn't want my protagonist to be the one espousing those views and I certainly don't want broad groups of people from differing cultures painted by an even broader brush dipped in the well of ignorance.

 

What's worse? Most of the audience when the film was made had no trouble with that attitude at all.

None.

 

That I do admit is rather depressing...disturbing?

[Badger]

Well, death did seem a better alternative than repeated rape in that time.

 

 

In any case,  in the end of the movie, she was saved rather than killed.

[massey]

10 hours ago, Michael Hopcroft said:

I don't think I could watch The Searchers, legendary a film as it is, because it would be unbearable today. If your response to their even being a possibility of your daughter being touched without her consent by a member of a racial group you despise is to kill her horribly, you've got a serious problem, bub. What's worse? Most of the audience when the film was made had no trouble with that attitude at all. None.

 

See, I'm going to disagree with your assessment of this movie.  The Searchers intentionally portrays John Wayne in a negative light.  He's not the hero.  He's a man consumed by vengeance.

 

Jeffrey Hunter was the protagonist.  One of the things that makes it a brilliant film is the fact that John Wayne (normally the hero) is playing a character you're not supposed to like.  I haven't seen it in about 20 years, but as I recall, Wayne's character desecrates some corpses, and that's when he audience goes "whoa, this guy is not who I thought he was".

 

By the 1950s, it was becoming accepted by most Americans that the US government had screwed over the Indians.  Their portrayal in film was generally more positive than it had been in the old black and white westerns, where they were just faceless antagonists.

[death tribble]

10 hours ago, Ragitsu said:

I find it very difficult to watch Westerns prior to the 1980s or perhaps 1970s. The brownface and redface (not to mention gouda-thick put-on accents) is simply too distracting.

I can't agree with this. There are plenty of Westerns which do not have brownface or redface made prior to the 80s which are very good. High Noon for example,  The Magnificent Seven, The Sons of Katie Elder, True Grit (original version), Rio Lobo, Rio Bravo and El Dorado, Gunfight at the OK Corral, Once Upon a Time in the West, The Good, The Bad and the Ugly, A Fistful of Dollars and For a Few Dollars More.

 

The ones that changed things were Soldier Blue with graphic portrayals of cavalrymen raping Indian women, The Wild Bunch with its graphic violence and The Long Riders with its slow motion gunfire.

[Ragitsu]

1 hour ago, death tribble said:

I can't agree with this. There are plenty of Westerns which do not have brownface or redface made prior to the 80s which are very good. High Noon for example,  The Magnificent Seven, The Sons of Katie Elder, True Grit (original version), Rio Lobo, Rio Bravo and El Dorado, Gunfight at the OK Corral, Once Upon a Time in the West, The Good, The Bad and the Ugly, A Fistful of Dollars and For a Few Dollars More.

 

The ones that changed things were Soldier Blue with graphic portrayals of cavalrymen raping Indian women, The Wild Bunch with its graphic violence and The Long Riders with its slow motion gunfire.

 

I didn't state all Westerns before those decades utilized brownface/redface. That said, it certainly was a more common practice the further back you went. Also, note that i'm including television series in addition to films.

[death tribble]

There was a Western TV series in the Seventies with Kurt Russell called The Quest. And there were several rape scenes in that. It did not make it past the first season.

[Michael Hopcroft]

One of my friends called The Good, the Bad and the Ugly one of the best films about the American Civil War ever made. The war is largely the backdrop and the plot driver (the object of obsession for the three main characters is a stolen shipment of Confederate gold), but it is definitely messy. Angel Eyes, posing as a Union officer, is more than willing to use torture to get what he wants and convince unwitting Union troops to go along (the Confederate prisoner being forced to sing to cover up the sounds of the beating is heartbreaking), and the battle over the bridge as the film approaches its climax (while not at all essential to the main plot) is a great testament to the absurdity of war in general. Sergio Leone had lived through seeing his country as a battlefield in World War II, and that's something you don't set aside easily.

 

Americans' attitude about our Civil War is complicated, and not in good ways.

 

As an aside, Clint Eastwood learned a lot from his time making films with Sergio Leone. Whether he was actively tutored by his director or simply observed carefully everything that went on I don't know, but he certainly carried it over into his own directing career. I was blown away by his incredibly nuanced Western The Outlaw Josey Wales, which starts as a simple revenge story and goes much deeper before it's through.

 

Once on Turner Classic Movies I got to see a double-feature of American submarine movies -- one wartime propaganda (Destination: Tokyo) and one made in the mid-50s (Torpedo Run). Needless to say the latter was much more nuanced, though still clearly anti-Japanese in its outlook. The latter becomes a study of obsession, as a submarine captain finds that a Japanese supercarrier has become his own personal Moby Dick, to be destroyed at all cost no matter who he hurts in the process.

[Cassandra]

30 minutes ago, Michael Hopcroft said:

One of my friends called The Good, the Bad and the Ugly one of the best films about the American Civil War ever made. The war is largely the backdrop and the plot driver (the object of obsession for the three main characters is a stolen shipment of Confederate gold), but it is definitely messy. Angel Eyes, posing as a Union officer, is more than willing to use torture to get what he wants and convince unwitting Union troops to go along (the Confederate prisoner being forced to sing to cover up the sounds of the beating is heartbreaking), and the battle over the bridge as the film approaches its climax (while not at all essential to the main plot) is a great testament to the absurdity of war in general. Sergio Leone had lived through seeing his country as a battlefield in World War II, and that's something you don't set aside easily.

 

Americans' attitude about our Civil War is complicated, and not in good ways.

 

As an aside, Clint Eastwood learned a lot from his time making films with Sergio Leone. Whether he was actively tutored by his director or simply observed carefully everything that went on I don't know, but he certainly carried it over into his own directing career. I was blown away by his incredibly nuanced Western The Outlaw Josey Wales, which starts as a simple revenge story and goes much deeper before it's through.

 

Once on Turner Classic Movies I got to see a double-feature of American submarine movies -- one wartime propaganda (Destination: Tokyo) and one made in the mid-50s (Torpedo Run). Needless to say the latter was much more nuanced, though still clearly anti-Japanese in its outlook. The latter becomes a study of obsession, as a submarine captain finds that a Japanese supercarrier has become his own personal Moby Dick, to be destroyed at all cost no matter who he hurts in the process.

 

They should have done a triple feature with Destination Tokyo, Thirty Seconds Over Tokyo, and The Purple Heart.

[Tech priest support]

I saw "the purple heart". Good god someone PLEASE  tell me tat one guy's teeth were fake.....

[Ragitsu]

On 11/21/2017 at 6:39 AM, Cygnia said:

In a similar vein, I no longer listen to old Cosby comedy CDs, read Marion Zimmer Bradley or watch "The Usual Suspects".  I just CAN'T.

 

Did you ever watch "American Beauty"? In light of the accusations against Spacey, certain scenes in that film come off as especially...uh..."illuminating".

[Ragitsu]

4 hours ago, Michael Hopcroft said:

I was blown away by his incredibly nuanced Western The Outlaw Josey Wales, which starts as a simple revenge story and goes much deeper before it's through.

 

Incidentally, I find that film features one of the best representations of Native Americans in all of fiction. Ten Bears comes across as a man seriously committed to his tribe's customs while NOT behaving like a caricature.

 

 

Josey: "You be Ten Bears?"
Ten Bears: "I am Ten Bears."

 

 

[Starlord]

5 hours ago, Michael Hopcroft said:

One of my friends called The Good, the Bad and the Ugly one of the best films about the American Civil War ever made. The war is largely the backdrop and the plot driver (the object of obsession for the three main characters is a stolen shipment of Confederate gold), but it is definitely messy. Angel Eyes, posing as a Union officer, is more than willing to use torture to get what he wants and convince unwitting Union troops to go along (the Confederate prisoner being forced to sing to cover up the sounds of the beating is heartbreaking), and the battle over the bridge as the film approaches its climax (while not at all essential to the main plot) is a great testament to the absurdity of war in general. Sergio Leone had lived through seeing his country as a battlefield in World War II, and that's something you don't set aside easily.

 

Americans' attitude about our Civil War is complicated, and not in good ways.

 

As an aside, Clint Eastwood learned a lot from his time making films with Sergio Leone. Whether he was actively tutored by his director or simply observed carefully everything that went on I don't know, but he certainly carried it over into his own directing career. I was blown away by his incredibly nuanced Western The Outlaw Josey Wales, which starts as a simple revenge story and goes much deeper before it's through.

 

Once on Turner Classic Movies I got to see a double-feature of American submarine movies -- one wartime propaganda (Destination: Tokyo) and one made in the mid-50s (Torpedo Run). Needless to say the latter was much more nuanced, though still clearly anti-Japanese in its outlook. The latter becomes a study of obsession, as a submarine captain finds that a Japanese supercarrier has become his own personal Moby Dick, to be destroyed at all cost no matter who he hurts in the process.

 

Well, Josey Wales is my favorite western ever...by far.

[Cygnia]

2 hours ago, Ragitsu said:

 

Did you ever watch "American Beauty"? In light of the accusations against Spacey, certain scenes in that film come off as especially...uh..."illuminating".

Never saw it, thankfully.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

I don't think I could watch The Searchers, legendary a film as it is, because it would be unbearable today. If your response to their even being a possibility of your daughter being touched without her consent by a member of a racial group you despise is to kill her horribly, you've got a serious problem, bub. What's worse? Most of the audience when the film was made had no trouble with that attitude at all. None.

 

Massey is correct, Wayne is the bad guy, he's portrayed as a jerk that makes everyone nervous.  People around him try to get him to change his mind.  And the audience at the time did not agree with him.  They thought he was being a jerk, too.  They understood concern over a girl being taken away from her culture and heritage and thought she'd be a mess as a result (not to mention that the tribes sometimes were less than gentle with female captives, shall we say).  But nobody thought killing her was a reasonable response, nor did the film portray that as proper.  Clearly, the end of the movie shows that Wayne has learned and changed.

[Badger]

1 hour ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

 

Massey is correct, Wayne is the bad guy, he's portrayed as a jerk that makes everyone nervous.  People around him try to get him to change his mind.  And the audience at the time did not agree with him.  They thought he was being a jerk, too.  They understood concern over a girl being taken away from her culture and heritage and thought she'd be a mess as a result (not to mention that the tribes sometimes were less than gentle with female captives, shall we say).  But nobody thought killing her was a reasonable response, nor did the film portray that as proper.  Clearly, the end of the movie shows that Wayne has learned and changed.

 

THis, though I am not sure if I would classify Wayne's technically as the "bad guy" per se, the synopsis of his character would be complicated to say the least (terrible person, but probably in the "hard and merciless", and absolutely jaded from years of war.  That shouldn't be an excuse, of course)  If I remember the movie right, it should also be mentioned an older girl in the family was also kidnapped, and on the initial trail Wayne's character found her body brutally massacred, and didn't let Hunter's character see the body.

 

In regards, to redface, I can be somewhat forgiving in pre-1960 or thereabouts movies, but portrayal is key.

 

Note: My dad is fond as saying more "Apaches" were killed on screen in movies of the period than in that time in real life.  (they didn't exactly travel in large numbers)

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Tech priest support]

Wayne's lucky he died wen he did, otherwise this interview would have been all he was remembered for.

 

https://www.snopes.com/john-wayne-white-supremacy/

[mrinku]

On 01/12/2017 at 4:12 PM, Ragitsu said:

I find it very difficult to watch Westerns prior to the 1980s or perhaps 1970s. The brownface and redface (not to mention gouda-thick put-on accents) is simply too distracting.

 

Pick your Western. Quite a lot of them don't have any Native Americans, and Hispanics are often done okay. I'd definitely suggest High Noon (1952), Shane (1953), Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid (1969), The Magnificent Seven (1960) and pretty much any of the spaghetti westerns (all through the 1960s, but the Eastwood ones start from 1964). Paint Your Wagon (1969) is okay - a little bit of mild Mormon baiting and the morbid fascination of hearing Lee Marvin and Clint Eastwood sing.  Films about the various gangs and gunfighters (i.e. the various Gunfights at the OK Corral) also tend to be white-on-white and avoid the issue. 

 

Also, if the Native Americans in question are there as scenery extras, like townsfolk, it doesn't much bother me so much. Even if there's a fight... a bunch of warriors taking a swipe at a wagon train isn't racist, it's historical.

 

Never much took to John Wayne. He's good as the arrogant bigot in The Searchers (and as has been pointed out above, this was the role. It's not casual racism, but actively making the point about how evil it can be. If you think he's the hero of the film, you're missing the point), as Rooster Cogburn in True Grit and as an old gunfighter dying of cancer in The Shootist, filmed when he was actually dying of cancer. I grew up on old westerns, but by the time I'd actually grown up, Clint Eastwood was the man, not Wayne.

[Lucius]

 

 

W p p s u o t i f n o m e?

I a a h.

 

LA

 

The palindromedary hopes the point is made but will provide translations upon request.

Will people please stop using only the initial for names of movies etc.? It's annoying as heck.

[Tech priest support]

I honestly have to say some movies that were meant to be very racist are so overblown and overdone that now they almost come off like comedy. Boris Karloff's Fu Manchu seems so ridiculous today it's laughable.

[Badger]

Yeah, I get confused on initials, occasionally myself.  (although probably guilty of doing so, because I am a lazy typist......though if anyone doesn't know what LOTR means, why are you on a nerd board in the first place)

[Doc Shadow]

Just because someone is a nerd doesn't mean they like all things nerdish. 

 

I hate both Tolkien and Harry Potter, and have no intention of ever seeing the 3rd Star Wars trilogy.