Star Wars 8 complaint box

[Ternaugh]

5 hours ago, Ragitsu said:

Ternaugh, Disney is hurriedly cutting any branches that tie Neo Star Wars to the original trilogy; in particular, OT characters are being killed off right after their personalities have been decidedly mutilated. The excuse of "maintaining continuity" aside, this is why they also trashed the Expanded Universe...except when they want to adapt elements that they know will sell such as Grand Admiral Thrawn (and Mara Jade is rumored to appear in Episode IX). Isn't that just a bit convenient? Everything has to be pushed aside so brand new shiny and empty things can be marketed. I bet those Rose Tico action figures are just flying off the shelves!

 

I'm not sure exactly what you mean about "OT characters are being killed off right after their personalities have been decidedly mutilated." Harrison Ford had been lobbying for Han to die heroically in Episode VI. Sure, Luke went full curmudgeon, much like Yoda and Obi Wan before him (and even if he's now "one with the Force", he can always come back as a Force ghost). Leia wasn't actually killed off in Episode VII, but with the death of Carrie Fisher, it's highly unlikely that we'll see the character again. Let's face it, the actors are getting old. Ford's 75. Hamill is 66, or 3 years older than Alec Guinness when he played Obi Wan in the original Star Wars. The only reason why Chewbacca is still around is because they swapped out the actor in the costume.

 

The Extended Universe materials were frequently a mixed bag, and Lucasfilm had a complicated system of canon levels to deal with it*. Disney's Lucasfilm just formalized the system so that they would not be constrained by various bits which don't necessarily fit the narrative**. And you're right that sales figures were lower for Star Wars merchandise last year:

 

Quote

The “Star Wars” performance could hinder Disney’s bid to revive growth at its consumer products division, where sales fell 13 percent to $4.83 billion for the fiscal year that ended Sept. 30.

 

Sales figures should be even worse this year, with the demise of Toys R Us, and the trend of kids moving away from pretty much all physical toys (Lego has also been hit pretty hard by a sales slump). Heck, I don't buy nearly the same amount of collectible stuff anymore, and I'm guessing that a lot of collectors who are around my age are also ramping down on their purchases. The thing is, it's Disney. We kind of knew that they were going to milk it as much as possible, just like they did with the Cars franchise (which made more money in merchandising than ticket sales for all Pixar movies combined). 

 

 

*George Lucas basically treated everything other than Episodes I-VI as alternate canon (or non-canon).

 

** Otherwise, the Star Wars Holiday Special, the novel Splinter of the Mind's Eye, the various cartoons (including Droids and Ewoks) and a bunch of really weird stuff from the original run of the Marvel comics would need to be considered. There's also a lot of crap that's been produced, and I'm not sorry that it's not being forced into the continuity.

[Ragitsu]

46 minutes ago, Ternaugh said:

 

I'm not sure exactly what you mean about "OT characters are being killed off right after their personalities have been decidedly mutilated." Harrison Ford had been lobbying for Han to die heroically in Episode VI. Sure, Luke went full curmudgeon, much like Yoda and Obi Wan before him (and even if he's now "one with the Force", he can always come back as a Force ghost). Leia wasn't actually killed off in Episode VII, but with the death of Carrie Fisher, it's highly unlikely that we'll see the character again. Let's face it, the actors are getting old. Ford's 75. Hamill is 66, or 3 years older than Alec Guinness when he played Obi Wan in the original Star Wars. The only reason why Chewbacca is still around is because they swapped out the actor in the costume.

 

The Extended Universe materials were frequently a mixed bag, and Lucasfilm had a complicated system of canon levels to deal with it*. Disney's Lucasfilm just formalized the system so that they would not be constrained by various bits which don't necessarily fit the narrative**. And you're right that sales figures were lower for Star Wars merchandise last year:

 

 

Sales figures should be even worse this year, with the demise of Toys R Us, and the trend of kids moving away from pretty much all physical toys (Lego has also been hit pretty hard by a sales slump). Heck, I don't buy nearly the same amount of collectible stuff anymore, and I'm guessing that a lot of collectors who are around my age are also ramping down on their purchases. The thing is, it's Disney. We kind of knew that they were going to milk it as much as possible, just like they did with the Cars franchise (which made more money in merchandising than ticket sales for all Pixar movies combined). 

 

 

*George Lucas basically treated everything other than Episodes I-VI as alternate canon (or non-canon).

 

** Otherwise, the Star Wars Holiday Special, the novel Splinter of the Mind's Eye, the various cartoons (including Droids and Ewoks) and a bunch of really weird stuff from the original run of the Marvel comics would need to be considered. There's also a lot of crap that's been produced, and I'm not sorry that it's not being forced into the continuity.

 

Han Solo had his reset button pushed; he was, once again, a two-bit smuggler that had to kiss ass just to survive*. Let's put aside the fact that he should have been with Leia and doing his best to support her (his corrupted son needing their help is a damn good reason to stay with his wife during a protracted period of emotional turmoil). Why not make him some sort of "crime" lord "smuggling" various "illicit" materials? At least that would have been a nice role reversal compared to his situation in A New Hope.

 

Luke Skywalker forgot a major lesson learned during his ordeal aboard the second Death Star. He doesn't just make a random mistake; he becomes the antithesis of his "hope bringer" persona until roused to action by Mary "Rey" Sue.

 

Leia, I will admit, wasn't butchered too badly, but there were still some sketchy moments such as her going to hug Rey instead of Chewbacca at the end of The Force Awakens and her handling of Poe Dameron's (uncharacteristic, mind you) sudden rebellious behavior was only marginally better than Holdo's peremptory bungling.

 

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I do agree that the Star Wars Expanded Universe/"Legends" line of literature contains much dross to sift through, but there's also some silver (Shadows of the Empire, I Jedi) and even gold (X-Wing series, Heir to the Empire trilogy) that's worth unearthing. Interestingly enough, the city-planet of "Coruscant" witnessed in the prequel trilogy had its title adopted from an EU novel.

 

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/List_of_C-canon_elements_in_the_films

 

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* Yes, I know that he chose this occupation. Thematically, however, he's still doing the same thing...even if he has a choice this time around.

[Badger]

I can sort of see Han and Leia being split, that relationship definitely ran hot.  But, yeah, not really a good explanation for not being there.

 

Obi-wan and Yoda to my knowledge were never shown contemplating murdering someone in their sleep.  

[Ternaugh]

 

3 hours ago, Ragitsu said:

 

Han Solo had his reset button pushed; he was, once again, a two-bit smuggler that had to kiss ass just to survive*. Let's put aside the fact that he should have been with Leia and doing his best to support her (his corrupted son needing their help is a damn good reason to stay with his wife during a protracted period of emotional turmoil). Why not make him some sort of "crime" lord "smuggling" various "illicit" materials? At least that would have been a nice role reversal compared to his situation in A New Hope.

 

Luke Skywalker forgot a major lesson learned during his ordeal aboard the second Death Star. He doesn't just make a random mistake; he becomes the antithesis of his "hope bringer" persona until roused to action by Mary "Rey" Sue.

 

Leia, I will admit, wasn't butchered too badly, but there were still some sketchy moments such as her going to hug Rey instead of Chewbacca at the end of The Force Awakens and her handling of Poe Dameron's (uncharacteristic, mind you) sudden rebellious behavior was only marginally better than Holdo's peremptory bungling.

 

--- --- ---

 

I do agree that the Star Wars Expanded Universe/"Legends" line of literature contains much dross to sift through, but there's also some silver (Shadows of the Empire, I Jedi) and even gold (X-Wing series, Heir to the Empire trilogy) that's worth unearthing. Interestingly enough, the city-planet of "Coruscant" witnessed in the prequel trilogy had its title adopted from an EU novel.

 

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/List_of_C-canon_elements_in_the_films

 

--- --- ---

 

* Yes, I know that he chose this occupation. Thematically, however, he's still doing the same thing...even if he has a choice this time around.

 

I didn't have a problem with Han not being with Leia, as his character didn't seem the type to be happy hanging out for long periods of time in the political circles that Leia frequented, and there was an undertone of Han blaming himself for their son's fall to the dark side. I was never bothered by Leia's hug of Rey at the end of TFA, and just assumed that Leia was comforting her as Rey's immediate need was greater, and would grieve with Chewbacca in their own way later, privately.

 

It's interesting that the EU stuff also includes Luke's struggle and turn to the dark side in Dark Empire.

 

If anything, attempting to kill a student (and nephew) with the look of fear on his face would imply that he was, at that time, earning a Dark Side point or two. The implication is that it was the fear of losing his nephew to the dark side that drove him to his actions, and the horror at what he had done led to his exile and refusal to train anyone else. Likewise, during ROTJ, Luke is often conflicted during the confrontation with Palpatine, and has to actively work to maintain his composure as the Rebel fleet is being systematically destroyed by the Death Star II's main beam. Staying in the light isn't ever easy for Luke; but is rather a constant struggle to avoid the Skywalker heritage. Could this conflict have been handled better in TLJ? Most definitely.

 

As for the good and the bad in the EU, I'm well aware. The omnibus version of the Shadows of the Empire comic is literally about 2 feet away from me as I write this, and I've also read the novel (around here somewhere) and own the soundtrack. I've enjoyed a number of novels from the EU, including the original Han Solo trilogy and even Heir to the Empire. But I stopped reading when they became repetitive and dull.

[Ternaugh]

3 hours ago, Badger said:

I can sort of see Han and Leia being split, that relationship definitely ran hot.  But, yeah, not really a good explanation for not being there.

 

Obi-wan and Yoda to my knowledge were never shown contemplating murdering someone in their sleep.  

 

Obi-Wan cut off the limbs of his former student and "great friend" and left him to die on the side of a volcano in agony as his body was engulfed in flames from the heat of the lava. But at least Obi-Wan's victim was conscious while it was happening. 

[Hugh Neilson]

Luke's refusal to kill Vader wasn't welcomed by Yoda or Obi-Wan.  He wasn't looking for the good in Jabba or Boba Fett.  No callout for a heart of gold in the Emperor (hey, just a well-intentioned Senator who got in over his head, right?), among many others.  Why did Vader get a special pass?

 

The Daddy card?  Luke seemed to be doing his best to kill him, not calling on the "good still inside you", on Cloud City. Only once he knows Vader is his biological Dad does 'e "know" there is still good in him.  Taken in the most cynical light, maybe he just got lucky.

 

Taken in a more favourable light, could  Luke's connection with the Force have allowed him to "sense your inner turmoil" when he faced Vader (only really understanding it after reflecting on it, following the events of Cloud City, or maybe needing more training to even sense it)?

 

And, perhaps, sensing a similar hope for Kylo Ren, which allowed him to step back before striking a killing blow?

 

As others have noted, Luke was not a paragon of virtue - the Dark Side tempted him, he committed violent acts, he exerted control over others' minds, and even force choked a target in Jabba's palace, IIRC.  He was never shown as immune to either error or temptation.

[Ragitsu]

3 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

Luke's refusal to kill Vader wasn't welcomed by Yoda or Obi-Wan.  He wasn't looking for the good in Jabba or Boba Fett.  No callout for a heart of gold in the Emperor (hey, just a well-intentioned Senator who got in over his head, right?), among many others.  Why did Vader get a special pass?

 

The Daddy card?  Luke seemed to be doing his best to kill him, not calling on the "good still inside you", on Cloud City. Only once he knows Vader is his biological Dad does 'e "know" there is still good in him.  Taken in the most cynical light, maybe he just got lucky.

 

Taken in a more favourable light, could  Luke's connection with the Force have allowed him to "sense your inner turmoil" when he faced Vader (only really understanding it after reflecting on it, following the events of Cloud City, or maybe needing more training to even sense it)?

 

And, perhaps, sensing a similar hope for Kylo Ren, which allowed him to step back before striking a killing blow?

 

As others have noted, Luke was not a paragon of virtue - the Dark Side tempted him, he committed violent acts, he exerted control over others' minds, and even force choked a target in Jabba's palace, IIRC.  He was never shown as immune to either error or temptation.

 

Folks seem to be ignoring that, despite his questionable actions during the front half of Return of the Jedi, Luke learned his lesson (indeed, THE lesson of all lessons) when he finally discarded his lightsaber and chose to not give into the dark side of The Force. Seeing characters in the same rut they were in thirty years ago isn't fun. It isn't "cool" or "innovative". It is, at best, uninspired and, at worst, a cynical take on what makes for interesting cinema. We're currently in an age where it seems that everything and everyone good has to be dragged through the mud lest they seem overly saccharine.

[Ragitsu]

9 hours ago, Ternaugh said:

I was never bothered by Leia's hug of Rey at the end of TFA, and just assumed that Leia was comforting her as Rey's immediate need was greater, and would grieve with Chewbacca in their own way later, privately.

 

That is a generous interpretation of events. To me, that seemed like another scene written/shot in a way to positively bolster the image of newcomer Rey by focusing exclusively on her. If you'll recall, after Han and Luke repelled the TIE fighter attack following their "escape" from the Death Star, Leia and Chewbacca shared a celebratory hug despite barely knowing each other. Then, there was that time Han was frozen in carbonite and Leia buried herself in Chewbacca's chest while engulfed in anguish. Chewbacca had no problem affectionately embracing Han after missing him for a year; furthermore, Chewbacca had been Leia's guardian for that same year and, by the time of The Force Awakens, he had known Leia for three (or so) decades. The two life-long friends would have hugged. If Rey, too, must emotionally bond with Leia in that scene, so be it. There was no reason you couldn't have each returning character take turns consoling the grieving widow...unless you don't want the camera leaving the new lady for whatever reason.

 

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Edit -> Here is a quote from J.J. Abrams himself concerning why Leia didn't hug Chewbacca.

 

Quote

"That was probably one of the mistakes I made in that."

[JmOz]

Still think Rey might be related to leia....

[Ragitsu]

6 hours ago, Ternaugh said:

 

Obi-Wan cut off the limbs of his former student and "great friend" and left him to die on the side of a volcano in agony as his body was engulfed in flames from the heat of the lava. But at least Obi-Wan's victim was conscious while it was happening. 

 

You're comparing pyrite and gold here. Obi-Wan clearly warned against committing to a reckless maneuver in a face-to-face battle against a friend that had recently converted to the dark side: a move solidified by the unquestioning slaughter of various innocents (including children). Anakin was an opponent that wasn't going to surrender and wouldn't be caged (or, at least, caged by any means Kenobi currently had at his disposal). He wasn't going to relent. Dismembering him was merciful compared to a decapitation or Force Push into the lava. Did Obi-Wan handle the situation perfectly? Perhaps not...but to frame Anakin as "Obi-Wan's victim" comes off as a bit disingenuous.

[Ternaugh]

33 minutes ago, JmOz said:

Still think Rey might be related to leia....

 

I really hope not. I'm getting burned out on the Skywalker clan.

[Ragitsu]

37 minutes ago, JmOz said:

Still think Rey might be related to leia....

 

Going with that "revelation" would be akin to pulling a half-decomposed rabbit corpse out of a shabby beanie.

[Hugh Neilson]

3 hours ago, Ragitsu said:

 

Folks seem to be ignoring that, despite his questionable actions during the front half of Return of the Jedi, Luke learned his lesson (indeed, THE lesson of all lessons) when he finally discarded his lightsaber and chose to not give into the dark side of The Force. Seeing characters in the same rut they were in thirty years ago isn't fun. It isn't "cool" or "innovative". It is, at best, uninspired and, at worst, a cynical take on what makes for interesting cinema. We're currently in an age where it seems that everything and everyone good has to be dragged through the mud lest they seem overly saccharine.

 

So he can make a "right choice" and now ascendeth into Sainthood, never agiain to struggle with any moral challenge?  I could have lived with that, but it should mean pushing the new Trilogy further forward in time that this paragon of moral uprightness is History, if not all the way to Legend.  Perfect characters aren't good for drama.

 

Now, I would not have been unhappy with a story set, say. one or two generations further forward so the First Trilogy characters were all gone.  Having decided to use them, I think they still have to be fallible, physically and morally.  Not to say they could not have been used better, but "Luke made the right decision once" doesn't seem to  make him a saint.

 

Vader came to his defense against the Emperor - does that wipe away his past sins and mean, had he survived, he would have been an Infallible Paragon of Virtue forevermore as well?

[dmjalund]

38 minutes ago, Ternaugh said:

 

I really hope not. I'm getting burned out on the Skywalker clan.

then why watch what had been called "The Skywalker Saga"?

[Ragitsu]

6 minutes ago, Hugh Neilson said:

 

So he can make a "right choice" and now ascendeth into Sainthood, never agiain to struggle with any moral challenge?

 

Same region; different elevation of plateau. You can have a good Luke Skywalker struggling with an issue that isn't on the level of attempted murder.

[Ternaugh]

9 minutes ago, Ragitsu said:

 

You're comparing pyrite and gold here. Obi-Wan clearly made his intent known in a face-to-face battle against a friend that had recently converted to the dark side: a move solidified by the unquestioning slaughter of various innocents (including children). Anakin was an opponent that wasn't going to surrender and wouldn't be caged (or, at least, caged by any means Kenobi currently had at his disposal). He wasn't going to relent. Dismembering him was merciful compared to a decapitation or Force Push into the lava. Did Obi-Wan handle the situation perfectly? Perhaps not...but to frame Anakin as "Obi-Wan's victim" comes off as a bit disingenuous.

 

Not at all. It's true, from a certain point of view, just like the idea of mercy is watching your former friend immolate from proximity to a lava flow, and chiding him for his failures from the top of the rise without helping him. Obi-Wan had failed in his training of his padawan, and missed several signs of "emotional entanglements" concerning his mother and Padme, not to mention the personality changes as Anakin started down the path to being "seduced by the dark side", as seen in AOTC*. Perhaps, Obi-Wan's hubris was what prevented him from seeking guidance on the matter from more experienced Jedi masters, but the Anakin situation should have never reached the lava flows of that planet in the first place. And Obi-Wan certainly shouldn't have left him to die in his weakened state. 

 

 

*I would point out the various times that Anakin dropped comments that were authoritarian/contrary to Jedi teachings in AOTC, with Obi-Wan frequently giving him stunned looks, but not much more than a verbal reprimand.

[Ternaugh]

2 minutes ago, dmjalund said:

then why watch what had been called "The Skywalker Saga"?

 

Indeed.

[Ragitsu]

4 hours ago, Ternaugh said:

 

Not at all. It's true, from a certain point of view, just like the idea of mercy is watching your former friend immolate from proximity to a lava flow, and chiding him for his failures from the top of the rise without helping him. Obi-Wan had failed in his training of his padawan, and missed several signs of "emotional entanglements" concerning his mother and Padme, not to mention the personality changes as Anakin started down the path to being "seduced by the dark side", as seen in AOTC*. Perhaps, Obi-Wan's hubris was what prevented him from seeking guidance on the matter from more experienced Jedi masters, but the Anakin situation should have never reached the lava flows of that planet in the first place. And Obi-Wan certainly shouldn't have left him to die in his weakened state. 

 

 

*I would point out the various times that Anakin dropped comments that were authoritarian/contrary to Jedi teachings in AOTC, with Obi-Wan frequently giving him stunned looks, but not much more than a verbal reprimand.

 

You've expanded the parameter of the conversation to encompass the failings of the old Jedi order and Obi-Wan's shortcomings as an instructor pressed into service when he himself was straddling the line between Jedi Padawan and Jedi Knight. None of this still makes Anakin the "victim" of Obi-Wan in that fight.

[Ternaugh]

3 minutes ago, Ragitsu said:

 

You've expanded the parameter of the conversation to encompass the failings of the old Jedi order and Obi-Wan's shortcomings as an instructor pressed into service when he himself was straddling the line between Jedi Padawn and Jedi Knight. None of this still makes Anakin the "victim" of Obi-Wan in that fight.

 

I respectfully disagree.

[Ragitsu]

15 minutes ago, Ternaugh said:

 

I respectfully disagree.

 

*shrugs* There is no comparison between the chaos of an open battle rife with evident lethal intent against a foe (friend or otherwise) that has crossed the line into evil and a seasoned master (especially one cognizant of the old Jedi order's dogmatism) that happens to be an uncle contemplating committing murder against a nephew he thinks might fall to the dark side. I'll not press the issue any further with you, Ternaugh, but I will say that I find it disheartening that people are defending bad writing. Even Mark Hamill himself repeatedly voiced complaints that The Last Jedi Luke behaves in a way contrary to his established philosophy.

 

 

[Ragitsu]

 

[Vondy]

1 hour ago, Ragitsu said:

 

Same region; different elevation of plateau. You can have a good Luke Skywalker struggling with an issue that isn't on the level of attempted murder.

 

As a point of order, he never actually made the attempt. Attempted murder was a step farther than her went. He contemplated it and came to the brink, but realized that he now stood on the precipice of the darkside himself. As a good person would, he was filled with self-horror and shame at what he had almost done. Good people, even righteous people, are tempted all the time. The biggest temptations are those that beg us to do evil to preserve good. "Strike me down..." "Save your friends..."  Just because Luke threw his lightsaber aside in the Throne Room and refused to kill his father doesn't mean he was now free from that temptation for the rest of his days. Righteous people struggle with their desires and the lure of the wrong choice all the time. I ddin't find this half as disturbing or off-putting as many appaerently did. After all, he didn't actually kill Kylo Ren. No, what I did find disturbing and extemely off-putting was that our hero ran away and abandoned those who needed him and his duty rather than look himself in the mirror and own what he'd nearly done. King David failed miserably and yet owned his sin, made his penitence, and came to be referred to as the greatest and most righteous king in the history of Israel as a result. No, what bothered me was that the righteous choice a hero of Luke's caliber should have made would have been to acknowledge failure and then strive against it knowing he had more moral miles to go before he sleeps.

[Ragitsu]

30 minutes ago, Vondy said:

 

Just because Luke threw his lightsaber aside in the Throne Room and refused to kill his father doesn't mean he was now free from that temptation for the rest of his days.

 

That's a bit of a false equivalency*, Vondy: Luke was knowingly combating his father, extremely emotionally volatile (having been taunted by Vader regarding the potential corruption of his sister) not to mention operating with a rocky education in The Force as his guide, and pressured by all the dark mojo Palpatine was summoning against him. A calm, experienced, and elderly Jedi Master approaching a sleeping relative while considering an action born of the worst sort of moral cowardice against an individual who's hands weren't even soaked in blood by that point isn't equally understandable. Anyhow...you are correct in that Luke running away was also out-of-character. That was insult atop injury.

 

* Oh...there also happened to be a battle being waged for the fate of the galaxy right outside the window. Such an event could very well affect one's state of mind, too.

[Ragitsu]

On 12/21/2017 at 9:09 AM, Christopher R Taylor said:

Yeah its weird, the way they talked about the Clone Wars I envisioned a long war far in the past.

 

I never envisioned the Clone Wars as a PG-rated conflict between GOOD GUY clones and bad guy robots. In my mind, the Clone Wars referenced a time when the Jedi (and perhaps - but my memory is fuzzy on this, so keep that in mind - some Old Republic human soldiers) openly fought against BAD GUY clones.

[Badger]

11 hours ago, Ternaugh said:

 

Obi-Wan cut off the limbs of his former student and "great friend" and left him to die on the side of a volcano in agony as his body was engulfed in flames from the heat of the lava. But at least Obi-Wan's victim was conscious while it was happening. 

 

*sigh*  I seem to remember a duel before that though.  (and to be fair after the battle was abruptly finished, the lava did its things pretty quickly after an "I hate you".  Probably should have performed a mercy killing after that, I will give you that)