Badger Posted July 11, 2018 Report Share Posted July 11, 2018 1 hour ago, Ragitsu said: Thrawn, Joruus, and Mara Jade > Snoke, Kylo, and Rey. Only one > ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ragitsu Posted July 11, 2018 Report Share Posted July 11, 2018 15 minutes ago, Badger said: Yeah, well, I admit I bringing Maul back wasn't a great storyline to me. Better if he stayed dead (even if he was wasted, to kill him off in one movie). Even if he didn't die from the bifurcation, the fall should have (Luke in Cloud City, notwithstanding) My point is that if Disney wants to bring back a horizontally bifurcated Snoke, they have...er..."inspiration" to draw upon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ragitsu Posted July 11, 2018 Report Share Posted July 11, 2018 27 minutes ago, Badger said: Only one > ? Okay: you can still only have one "greater than", but I'll upgrade it to a GIANT "greater than". Thrawn, Joruus, and Mara Jade Snoke, Kylo, and Rey. Badger 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Badger Posted July 11, 2018 Report Share Posted July 11, 2018 2 hours ago, Ragitsu said: Okay: you can still only have one "greater than", but I'll upgrade it to a GIANT "greater than". Thrawn, Joruus, and Mara Jade Snoke, Kylo, and Rey. Still seems small, but I'll give it to you. Ragitsu 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ragitsu Posted July 11, 2018 Report Share Posted July 11, 2018 Upon rewatching the Kai Loren and Ray versus Praetorian Guard fight, I was struck by how sloppy Ray's attacks are. Y'see, the film wants to play up the "Ray is awesomely talented and needs little to no training." message for all it's worth, so we have her - an inexperienced lightsaber wielder - somehow beating elite warriors that gang up on her two or three at a time. Excuses of "Well duh, she has The Force on her side." fall flat when you realize she isn't fighting with the gracefulness of someone in sync with The Force, isn't utilizing telekinesis, isn't making prodigious leaps, isn't trying another Jedi Mind Trick, etc. This leads me to believe that there was some sort of underlying decision to ensure that the lightsaber fights of the sequel trilogy remain as "realistic" as possible. While I can appreciate modern films being taken in new directions, we lose some of the Star Wars magic when people strongly linked to The Force inexplicably restrain themselves from utilizing their abilities to the fullest in battles to the death. P.S. Kai Loren can one-up past Jedi by freezing energy in mid-air, but the best he can do in that same fight is duel like a "normal"? --- --- --- Below is an even longer explanation of my thoughts (for those of you bored/curious enough). Eventually, Darth Emo and Miss Perfect throw down with a retinue of red space samurai. The set piece itself is nice, but the fight choreography is f***ing wacky (Miss Perfect should have died twice over). Anyhow...that isn't my complaint. What I found bizarre was the utter lack of any Force abilities being utilized. You'd think that, when outnumbered by foes skilled enough to protect Emperor 2.0, they would capitalize on any advantage to stay alive. Now, as far as I know, the bad guys aren't immune to The Force and the room doesn't contain some sort of "dead magic" zone that prevents drawing upon The Force. Unless there was a detail from the script that didn't make the transition to production, there is nothing in-universe that justifies this absence of space mojo. Some have said that the sequel trilogy is aiming to be more realistic...more raw. Let that sentiment sink in while we witness a setting where "larger than life" is the de facto standard. Okay, let's move past that. I personally have no problem with a modern take on Star Wars where battles are rougher and overall less refined. Here's where the underlying issue comes to light: these films are in direct defiance of past precedence. We've had six films where Jedi/Sith engage in combat. We know that they're not particularly shy about jumping around like Mario, throwing things (including lightsabers and living beings!) about with telekinesis, casting lightning spells, meditating to focus the accuracy of their blows, smoothly defending against multiple attackers and more. Granted, the prequels took this up a notch, but there were still instances in the OT where Luke and Vader called upon The Force to aid them. Here, we have two characters - the Yin and Yang representations of The Force - that fight like normals. You cannot decide to prevent anything supernatual/fantastic from entering the fight scenes without throwing in even the flimsiest of explanations as to why this exception is all of a sudden perfectly normal. There has to be an in-universe reason as to why Darth Emo doesn't Force Choke the last Praetorian intent on choking him, or why he doesn't extend a hand to TK grab his lightsaber from the floor. Omissions such as these may not come to mind when we're rapt with attention the first time around (particularly in a theater where we don't have the luxury of "rewind" and "pause"); however, they do hurt a film on subsequent viewings when we DO have the chance to reflect on the intricacies that can make or break a scene. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ragitsu Posted July 11, 2018 Report Share Posted July 11, 2018 What's your favorite fan-excuse for why no one in the Star Wars universe has ever employed the tactic of hyperspeed ramming before? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Badger Posted July 12, 2018 Report Share Posted July 12, 2018 Curious, where did the quote come from? (seems I've seen/heard a similar quote recently, but I cant remember) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ragitsu Posted July 12, 2018 Report Share Posted July 12, 2018 1 minute ago, Badger said: Curious, where did the quote come from? (seems I've seen/heard a similar quote recently, but I cant remember) I wrote it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Badger Posted July 12, 2018 Report Share Posted July 12, 2018 oh, I guess the Darth Emo threw me off (not that that isn't what everyone calls him) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ragitsu Posted July 12, 2018 Report Share Posted July 12, 2018 This film is the gift that keeps on giving ??. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Badger Posted July 12, 2018 Report Share Posted July 12, 2018 In an MST3K kind of way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starlord Posted July 12, 2018 Report Share Posted July 12, 2018 5 hours ago, Badger said: Curious, where did the quote come from? (seems I've seen/heard a similar quote recently, but I cant remember) The tactic was discussed fairly early in the thread, as I recall. I know I brought it up among others. Obviously, one wonders why giant hyperspace-capable drones aren't used consistently in any major space battle. Additionally, bombers that move so mind-numbingly slow as those in the beginning of the movie would never, EVER survive any fight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grailknight Posted July 12, 2018 Report Share Posted July 12, 2018 You forgot carriers that don't launch fighters until the enemy is inside their point defense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Badger Posted July 13, 2018 Report Share Posted July 13, 2018 The one thing I have also been thinking with Leia Poppins. Given how fast even a sub-hyper speed ship is moving considering they are going to some other planet, wouldn't the ship have been hundreds if not thousands of miles away before she could even react to use the Force (i'd have to revisit the scene, which I don't care to, and it is relatively minor considering the expanse of space is hard to fathom for the average viewer-not to mention the ESB trip to Bespin probably should have taken years without hyperdrive, etc) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BarretWallace Posted July 13, 2018 Report Share Posted July 13, 2018 7 hours ago, Badger said: The one thing I have also been thinking with Leia Poppins. Given how fast even a sub-hyper speed ship is moving considering they are going to some other planet, wouldn't the ship have been hundreds if not thousands of miles away before she could even react to use the Force (i'd have to revisit the scene, which I don't care to, and it is relatively minor considering the expanse of space is hard to fathom for the average viewer-not to mention the ESB trip to Bespin probably should have taken years without hyperdrive, etc) The ESB trip to Bespin didn't bother me too much...in part because of a game mechanic quirk from the old West End d6 Star Wars RPG. Most ships larger than fighters had some form of backup hyperdrive. Backups were always hideously slow compared to the main drive, and weren't meant to be used for more than one or two jumps before needing an overhaul, but could help a ship limp to port to effect repairs. I wonder if they came up with that mechanic from that very scene, because it made more sense that way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ternaugh Posted July 13, 2018 Report Share Posted July 13, 2018 7 hours ago, Badger said: The one thing I have also been thinking with Leia Poppins. Given how fast even a sub-hyper speed ship is moving considering they are going to some other planet, wouldn't the ship have been hundreds if not thousands of miles away before she could even react to use the Force (i'd have to revisit the scene, which I don't care to, and it is relatively minor considering the expanse of space is hard to fathom for the average viewer-not to mention the ESB trip to Bespin probably should have taken years without hyperdrive, etc) Star Wars hasn't ever been consistent with F=ma, and most ships are shown to have a maximum velocity*, even in vacuum. Assuming that she and the ship are travelling at the same velocity, the only added vector for her would have been from the jet of air pushing her out of the ship. That egress wouldn't necessarily be fatal (the scene from 2001: A Space Odyssey is scientifically accurate in that regard), and the assumption that she has not progressed in the Force during the last 30+ years is probably way off the mark. That she obviously had medical problems afterward was also consistent. *Star Wars space ships are more akin to prop planes in most cases, which was carried to an extreme with the various Naboo ships of the Prequels (see the picture here from AOTC as an example). They can accelerate to a maximum "cruising speed" fairly fast, and can brake just as easily. By the way, this also explains the "slow" bombers, as that would totally be modeled on something like the B29 from WWII, which usually had a fighter screen to protect it. As for the Bespin trip, the usual excuse given is that the Falcon's main hyperdrive was down, but their backup hyperdrive was able to limp them there (option 2 is that they got a lift while attached to the star destroyer). Still, it took them enough time for Luke to travel to Dagobah and train extensively with Yoda, so time did pass. Much like a lot of Star Trek ships, the ultimately fly at the speed of plot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starlord Posted July 13, 2018 Report Share Posted July 13, 2018 45 minutes ago, Ternaugh said: By the way, this also explains the "slow" bombers, as that would totally be modeled on something like the B29 from WWII, which usually had a fighter screen to protect it. Only if B29s had the speed and maneuverability of hot-air balloons. massey and Ragitsu 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ragitsu Posted July 13, 2018 Report Share Posted July 13, 2018 On 7/11/2018 at 11:21 PM, Badger said: In an MST3K kind of way. I'd rather defend The Alamo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ternaugh Posted July 14, 2018 Report Share Posted July 14, 2018 10 hours ago, Starlord said: Only if B29s had the speed and maneuverability of hot-air balloons. Oh, I don't know, that looked like the bombing run was being done at less than 300 MPH. It certainly seemed to take forever onscreen to get there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Badger Posted July 14, 2018 Report Share Posted July 14, 2018 4 hours ago, Ternaugh said: Oh, I don't know, that looked like the bombing run was being done at less than 300 MPH. It certainly seemed to take forever onscreen to get there. Maybe they had to stop at a red light. Note: And I admit last night, I was probably on a nitpicky metagaming kick (it's what we're here for) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ragitsu Posted July 14, 2018 Report Share Posted July 14, 2018 All of a sudden, fuel matters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Badger Posted July 14, 2018 Report Share Posted July 14, 2018 THat didn't bother me as much as many people, because I did remember the X-wings fueling up in IV before they went after the Death Star (or I assumed those hoses they detaching were pumping fuel). Not, that didn't bother me a little, but that scene let me know fuel was used. Just not what kind, how much, etc. (admittedly being in the original we could possibly have called that "early installment weirdness" until VIII). In any case, I just wonder if some of the more vehement anti-fuelers had forgotten that brief background scene. ANd once again, quasi-defending TLJ has left feeling the need to take a shower many showers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pattern Ghost Posted July 14, 2018 Report Share Posted July 14, 2018 One thing TLJ accomplished was making the prequels look much better in hindsight. Badger, Ragitsu and massey 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ragitsu Posted July 14, 2018 Report Share Posted July 14, 2018 6 minutes ago, Pattern Ghost said: One thing TLJ accomplished was making the prequels look much better in hindsight. They were ambitious works that expanded on the Star Wars mythology while feeling like Star Wars. The acting* and scriptwriting, on the other hand... Oh, and the glut of CGI didn't help matters either. * Liam Neeson, Ian McDiarmid, Christopher Lee, and Ewan McGregor aside. Okay, okay...Hayden Christensen had his moments too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Badger Posted July 14, 2018 Report Share Posted July 14, 2018 Yeah, they were a very deeply flawed Star Wars films. VII seemed like fan fiction. VIII seemed like fan-fiction written by the guy who won a staring contest with Cthulhu. I think the prequels were helped by the Clone Wars cartoons (at least for me, it helped me to finally "accept" them. Although liking I and II is impossible. I did like III more or less, but accepting was hard due to the baggage of the first 2.) Accepting the new trilogy will require Ep IX having cameos from Victoria Principal and Patrick Duffy. Starlord and Ragitsu 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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