Power builds/abuses of Hero

[dsatow]

Staff: "Boss!  The hero just bribed all our people to leave you."

Villain: "Kill them all! The traitors."

Staff: "We can't.  The brute squad left for the hero."

Villain: "The ruin them!"

Staff: "The IT group destroyed all the data and back ups."

Villain: "Set off the doomsday device!"

Staff: "Can't.  The scientists gave the IP over to the hero.  He's disabled the device."

Villain: "God damn it!" <Blasts staff> "Maintenance, clean up this mess.  ...  Maintenance?"

[massey]

This is why you have robots.  Or you hire cheap foreign henchmen who don't speak English.

[dsatow]

4 hours ago, massey said:

This is why you have robots.  Or you hire cheap foreign henchmen who don't speak English.

 

Villain: "UR2Die, kill the hero."

UR2Die: "You must reboot the system in order to install the latest Microsoft patch."

Villain: "That's the last time I trust an OS from another supervillain's lair..."

 

Villain: "Fire the deathray!"... "Why isn't it working?!"  <messages to engineering>

Henchman: "Service desk, Raju speaking"

Villain: "Why aren't you firing the death ray?"

Henchman: "Have you turned on the Death Ray?"

Villain: "Of course, I have."

Henchman: "Have you plugged in the Death Ray?"

Villain: "Look I designed the Death Ray, don't you think I would know if it was plugged in or not?"

Henchman: "Have you plugged in the Death Ray?"

Villain: "Its plugged in.  Look can you just run a service diagnostic"

Henchman: "Is the ready light Green?"

Villain: "Just run the service diagnostic."

Henchman: "Is the ready light Green?"

Villain: "You're just reading from a script aren't you?"

Henchman: "Is the ready light Green?"

Villain: "Last time I outsource to India..."

[indy523]

On ‎4‎/‎7‎/‎2018 at 10:29 PM, Ndreare said:

The only build I see get really abused is Focus man.

 

Focus man wants a discount on all his powers, but then complains of the unfairness when the focus is interfered with.

 

i one time had a player suggest that a symbiotic organism living in her abdomen is a focus. When I suggested no, there is no practical way to remove it then it is a special effect the player going pretty hot. 

 

Other things come and go, but Focus man or Focus woman is always there

They way to go with that is to tell the player if he takes the limitation then there will be things in game that take it away.

In this example the symbiote can get sick and the power stops working or is reduced.  The symbiote can also be required at times to leave the body to perform other tasks meaning the player won't have it.  Enemies who become knowledgeable can do this.

 

Even if he buys it IIF -1/4L it is possible for a bioengineer to create a chemical or biological agent that deadens the creature turning off the focus until the player can heal it.  How much the GM should have this interfere with the character should depend on how much of a limitation they took.

[indy523]

On ‎4‎/‎7‎/‎2018 at 9:54 PM, specks said:

What builds (powers, advantages, etc...) that you may have heard, seen or can think of that would be seen as munchkin or power gaming to some?

 

For example; If I remember the Aid power right you can divide in a certain number of ways as to where the points go. One person in my group sent half the points into his ED and the other half into Aid.

The end result was a perpetual motion machine type build!!!

 

I maybe wrong on the interpretation but I didn't see anything written to say it couldn't be built

 

I'd like to see some of the ways players have "twisted" the game to make them the "Ultimate" PC" ?

 

 

Page 135 of the section on Adjustment Powers from the Hero Book One 6th edition

 

"At the GM’s discretion, a character can create
an Absorption or Aid power which specifies that
some or all of the Character Points received go
to improve the effectiveness of the Adjustment
Power itself. However, the GM should review such
powers carefully, and forbid them or require the
player to revise them if they prove to be too unbal-
ancing or too disruptive of game play."

 

Remember that using AID is an action, usually, and the points fade at 5 per turn.

Someone doing this for a turn let's say uses all his actions to boost his ED and then increase the amount of total ED he can  boost by adding more points to the Aid, I guess so that he can be a punching bag for lazer blasts. 

 

You should note that unless they buy cumulative successive aids do not double the benefit.  They merely give the character the ability to continue increasing the AID until the roll the maximum

 

If you have a character wanting this build explain that he is sacrificing several actions for little effect.  Adding 2 dice of aid averages 6 points which will add 1 dice of AID.  So by first AIDing his 2 dice AID and averaging the roll to a 3 dice attack when he uses the attack again he gets a 3.5 point increase because he does not add his rolls together just takes the highest roll.

 

Tell him you want to outlaw it to avoid all the complication and to just buy the same power with a high level of cumulative (say 8x) for a +3/4A.  This gives him the same effect he wants, cumulative increases to his ED every time he uses the power without all the extra paperwork calculating when the points came in and when the fade out for every roll because you have to determine when the ED fades and when the AID fades and the net result of multiple rolls will be increased ED value until he gets to his limit 8x points or whatever it is purchased. 

 

Honestly in the end this build loses points and is complicated for no reason.  The character is failing to understand that you can never aid a power more than the total one can roll on the AID dice.

[Ndreare]

At the time I was immature as a GM and simply caved in. Then passive aggressivly had bad guys target her more often. 

 

Now days,  I would be more reasoned

[indy523]

On ‎4‎/‎8‎/‎2018 at 12:28 AM, Christopher R Taylor said:

Usable By Other on something the character doesn't have (1m of flight, for instance) and Aid: that power.  Then let the UBO go away; they still can fly!

 

That would not work I don't think.  You can only AID a power that you have.  So yes if someone gives you flight you could AID it however once the UBO ended the AID would end because the flight would go away and the AID with it.

[indy523]

On ‎4‎/‎8‎/‎2018 at 12:31 PM, Hugh Neilson said:

Aid presently costs 6 points per 1d6, unmodified.  Let's say we buy 10d6 of Aid for 60 point, half of which goes to ED and half to the Aid itself.  What happens?

 

First phase, spend 6 END and roll 10d6 - let's say it comes up 36.

 

+18 ED (halved is +9), and +18 Aid, so now you have 13d6 Aid.

 

Second phase, spend 8 END and roll 13d6.  Assuming an average or above roll, you will add 42 to reach the 78 point maximum.

 

That's another +21 ED (halved is +10, so +19 in total) and another 21 to Aid (so now you have a total of 60 + 18 + 21 = 99  AP, or 16 1/2d6 of Aid, with a 99 point maximum)

 

Maybe you only use 10d6 on the third phase, so only 6 END - rolling 21 to max out at 99 should be pretty easy.

 

So another +10 ED (halved is +5, so +24 in total from 49 Aided AP) and +10 to Aid (now 109 AP, so 18d6, and a 108 maximum).

 

This will be our fourth phase using the Aid, and we reach our 108 maximum.

 

Half of that, 54 points, is enhancing ED (so +27 ED) and the other half boosts Aid (so +9d6 - now 19d6, and a 114 AP cap)

 

Eventually, rounding permitting, we should have reached 120 points Aided, 60 to ED (so we have +30 ED) and 60 to Aid (so we have 120 AP = 20d6 = 120 maximum points Aided).

 

It sure took a lot of attack actions, and a lot of END, to convert the 60 points spent on Aid to +30 ED, didn't it?  Maybe +30 ED, Usable by Others, would be more efficient.

 

I suppose if you directed 1/3 of the points to the ability you want to enhance, and 2/3 to the Aid, you might get even higher, but it really doesn't seem worthwhile.  You could make the Aid infinite, though - direct all the points to Aid, and now it is unlimited.  Purposeless, but unlimited.

 

Pre-6e, when you could add 2 to the limit for every 1 point spent, infinite Aid (or Absorption - I've used that) was possible.

Multiple Aids do not stack unless they are bought with the power cumulative.  In the example above you add 18 points to your aid with the 36 roll.

Roll again at 13d6 and  roll say a 44.  That is not +11 ED more and 22 more points AID.  That is now a total +11 ED only three points more than before and +22 points total to the AID +6 points more.  On top of that you are probably 25% likely roll less on your 13 dice roll than your 10 dice roll due to bad luck (not sure the probability so let's accept that for sake of argument because I am not bothering with the math).  This means one fourth the time you spent eight more endurance just to get no effect.

 

This build is not munchin when you apply the rules, it is actually counterproductive.

You would be better off buying the power at +_1/4A Cumulative for 2x the effect and the ability to accumulate rolls.

[clnicholsusa]

I've used Absorption as a defense that feeds itself, not to break the envelope but because defenses require double points for adjustment and as the absorption defends it slowly becomes LESS effective. The power was to simulate a force field that absorbed the energy into a battery, when the battery was full the force field was greatly reduced in effectiveness.

[Old Man]

On 4/8/2018 at 7:14 AM, Hugh Neilson said:

 

The winner was

  Hide contents

a 4d6 Killing Attack, thanks to its volatility

 

Late to this thread.  You guys have touched on many of my favorite rules efficiencies, but here are some more specifics.

 

- The most volatile attack isn't a 4d6KA.  It's a 1d6-1KA with maximum STUNx.  Instead of a 4d6 bell curve, you have a 2d6 bell curve that scores ludicrous STUN about 1/6 of the time.  As a bonus, it's unlikely to outright kill even the squishiest target, so you can still pretend to have a Code vs. Killing.

 

- Any power with Cumulative, especially Transform.  Useless in combat but unstoppable given about five minutes of game time.

 

- Drain and Suppress versus END or INT.  INT is cheap, and who has more than 18 INT besides the mentalist?  Hell, Suppress is so cheap you can even make it AOE and turn everyone in the room into a drooling cretin.

 

- Duplication isn't exactly a minmax, but I like it because it makes it harder for your character to be KOed and turning you into a spectator for the session.

 

- Cheap transparent Entangles are a favorite when you have a teammate.  Hit the enemy martial artist with a 1-hex transparent entangle and he's instantly DCV 0 unless he can casual strength out before the brick hits him.  Splat.

 

- I'm also fond of AOE Entangles as a method of terrain creation. 

 

More as I remember them.

[Hugh Neilson]

3 hours ago, Old Man said:

 

Late to this thread.  You guys have touched on many of my favorite rules efficiencies, but here are some more specifics.

 

- Any power with Cumulative, especially Transform.  Useless in combat but unstoppable given about five minutes of game time.

 

 

Mental powers with cumulative can have a similar effect.  16d Mind Control, Telepathic Commands (+1/4), Cumulative (+1/2), x512 maximum (+1 3/4) costs 17 points.  So, I want to get Ego +40, -100 to the breakout roll, target remembers everything and thinks it was his own idea.  One breakout roll when the effect is achieved (Ego roll -20), a second after a phase, then a minute, an hour and a day.  Now that the conditioning is tested, the next step up the time chart to have a shot at rolling a 3 will be at a week, month, season and year.

[Hugh Neilson]

On that KA, 14 x 5  = 70 STUN (remembering that the issues arose in 5e and prior - 6e took a lot of the wind out of the KA sails).

 

1d6-1 KA, +10 Stun Multiple (it's +1/2 for each increase, isn't it?)  means 5 x 25 is the best I can do - 75 STUN, 1 chance in 36.  I can beat that one time in 6 if I can roll at least 16 on 4d6 - that's a much better chance, I think.

 

[Greywind]

3 hours ago, Old Man said:

- The most volatile attack isn't a 4d6KA.  It's a 1d6-1KA with maximum STUNx.  Instead of a 4d6 bell curve, you have a 2d6 bell curve that scores ludicrous STUN about 1/6 of the time.  As a bonus, it's unlikely to outright kill even the squishiest target, so you can still pretend to have a Code vs. Killing.

 

 

Using anything that has the possibility of killing, such as a Killing attack regardless of damage class level, will trip a CvK.

[Lucius]

2 hours ago, Greywind said:

 

Using anything that has the possibility of killing, such as a Killing attack regardless of damage class level, will trip a CvK.

 

This is a non-sequitur.

 

A Killing Attack that does NOT have a possibility of killing shouldn't trip a Code vs Killing.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary asks what about a Code vs Munchkins?

[Ninja-Bear]

Conversely, a large enough normal attack should trip a CvK, yet I haven’t seen it done. Anyone else?

[Old Man]

 

This is why I prefer lims like "Casual Killer" or "Contempt for Law Enforcement". 

 

5 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

On that KA, 14 x 5  = 70 STUN (remembering that the issues arose in 5e and prior - 6e took a lot of the wind out of the KA sails).

 

1d6-1 KA, +10 Stun Multiple (it's +1/2 for each increase, isn't it?)  means 5 x 25 is the best I can do - 75 STUN, 1 chance in 36.  I can beat that one time in 6 if I can roll at least 16 on 4d6 - that's a much better chance, I think.

 

 

+STUNx is +1/4, so 5 x 25 would be 125.  Ironically this works even better (relatively speaking) with the nerfed KA in 6e:

 

1d6-1K, 0.5d6 +20 STUNx --> min 20, avg 44, max 115 STUN

 

4d6K, 0.5d6 STUNx --> min 4, avg 28, max 72 STUN

 

At least I think so, the caffeine hasn't taken effect yet.

 

Good catch on the mental powers, too.  That's some Inception-level stuff right there.

 

[IndianaJoe3]

Way back in 2e I figured out Extra-Dimensional Movement, Usable as Attack. The defense is having XDM. If you get zapped, you're on an extended vacation.

[Greywind]

14 hours ago, Ninja-Bear said:

Conversely, a large enough normal attack should trip a CvK, yet I haven’t seen it done. Anyone else?

 

I have. I've done it to players.

[Ninja-Bear]

3 hours ago, Greywind said:

 

I have. I've done it to players.

That’s good!

[Hugh Neilson]

On ‎4‎/‎25‎/‎2018 at 7:32 AM, Greywind said:

 

Using anything that has the possibility of killing, such as a Killing attack regardless of damage class level, will trip a CvK.

 

How does the character know the mechanics of his power?  Is his character sheet printed on the back of his government-issued ID?  I am pretty sure most of us would not consider sleep darts a violation of a CvK, but I have built them as a 1 pt RKA, linked to an NND the defense for which is that the target would not take BOD from a 1d6 Penetrating KA.

 

A Code vs Killing is not a refusal to inflict BOD damage - it is a refusal to kill.

[Hugh Neilson]

19 hours ago, Old Man said:

 

This is why I prefer lims like "Casual Killer" or "Contempt for Law Enforcement". 

 

 

+STUNx is +1/4, so 5 x 25 would be 125.  Ironically this works even better (relatively speaking) with the nerfed KA in 6e:

 

1d6-1K, 0.5d6 +20 STUNx --> min 20, avg 44, max 115 STUN

 

4d6K, 0.5d6 STUNx --> min 4, avg 28, max 72 STUN

 

At least I think so, the caffeine hasn't taken effect yet.

 

Good catch on the mental powers, too.  That's some Inception-level stuff right there.

 

Maybe it was +1/2 in an earlier edition. 

 

1d6-1 (which I am accepting for discussion as the same cost as 1/2 d6 as it is the same DC - but should it be when it averages 2 2/3 instead of 2?*) is 10 points, so +5 Advantage would be +20 Stun Multiple, making your math right. 

 

Restrict it to 1/2d6 and max STUN drops to 75.  Make it 1d6 and +13 x 6 = 78.  Still a decent chance of a big number, which is likely why GM permission is explicitly required for more than +1 SM.

 

Going from 1d6-1 to 1d6 would increase the cost by 50%, the average damage by less than 1/3 and the max by 20% - doesn't feel like you are getting what you pay for.

 

As for the mental powers, toss on some Penetrating and IPE, and start with Mind Scan...Good ol' Margarita Man!

[Greywind]

18 minutes ago, Hugh Neilson said:

 

How does the character know the mechanics of his power?  Is his character sheet printed on the back of his government-issued ID?  I am pretty sure most of us would not consider sleep darts a violation of a CvK, but I have built them as a 1 pt RKA, linked to an NND the defense for which is that the target would not take BOD from a 1d6 Penetrating KA.

 

A Code vs Killing is not a refusal to inflict BOD damage - it is a refusal to kill.

 

Because there comes a point when the GM has to step in and say, "No. Throwing a 20d6 attack at a 6 year old is going to kill them."

[Hugh Neilson]

11 minutes ago, Greywind said:

 

Because there comes a point when the GM has to step in and say, "No. Throwing a 20d6 attack at a 6 year old is going to kill them."

 

Fully agree.  What about injecting the 6 YO (possessed by a Demon and wreaking great havoc, but still a 6 yo) with a sedative, using a 1 pip RKA drugged dart gun?

 

My question wasn't "how does the character know his attack is powerful, and potentially lethal?"  It was "How does he tell the difference between a Lightning Bolt which is a 4d6 KA and one which is a 12d6 Blast (so that he knows he can jolt the kid with a 2d6 Blast, but not a 1/2d6 KA), since you told us the CvK character could NEVER use a killing attack on a living being?

 

I guess a surgeon can't have a Code vs Killing - I am pretty sure a scalpel is a killing attack, and someone with a CvK could NEVER use a killing attack, right?  Who gets to tell Hippocrates?

[dgulledge]

On 4/8/2018 at 11:51 PM, ghost-angel said:

But then you get shenanigans like the following:

Does Body, Alternate Defense (Hardened Smell Flash Defense) which is perfectly book legal, and utterly ridiculous for 99.99% of all games out there.

 

I've been using the Hero System since 1981, and not once in all that time had Hardened Smell Flash Defense occurred to me.  I'm sure I've never used a Smell Flash, and yet I can easily give real life examples.

[dsatow]

4 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

 

Fully agree.  What about injecting the 6 YO (possessed by a Demon and wreaking great havoc, but still a 6 yo) with a sedative, using a 1 pip RKA drugged dart gun?

 

My question wasn't "how does the character know his attack is powerful, and potentially lethal?"  It was "How does he tell the difference between a Lightning Bolt which is a 4d6 KA and one which is a 12d6 Blast (so that he knows he can jolt the kid with a 2d6 Blast, but not a 1/2d6 KA), since you told us the CvK character could NEVER use a killing attack on a living being?

 

I guess a surgeon can't have a Code vs Killing - I am pretty sure a scalpel is a killing attack, and someone with a CvK could NEVER use a killing attack, right?  Who gets to tell Hippocrates?

 

I would say anything which does 4+ body after defenses would be considered lethal.  Otherwise its just aggravated assault.