"Insight" Check

[greypaladin_01]

I am working on Fantasy Hero and Champions games... and while I have played D&D and Hero alot.. im stuck on this. 

 

I am looking for a way to do something similar to Insight / Sense Motive checks for the VS on Acting, Persuasion and such.  What would you all recommend?

 

Thank you

[Amorkca]

Deduction is a skill you might consider for those...

[IndianaJoe3]

I think that Interrogation would work as a general, "detect lying" skill.

[Ninja-Bear]

What does Insight give you in game? Off the top, I was going to say perhaps Telepathy power would be in order but need more info.

[IndianaJoe3]

51 minutes ago, Ninja-Bear said:

What does Insight give you in game? Off the top, I was going to say perhaps Telepathy power would be in order but need more info.

 

Nothing that fancy. It's the skill used to figure out the general mood of the person you're interacting with, if they're being honest, etc.

[Lucius]

15 hours ago, greypaladin_01 said:

I am working on Fantasy Hero and Champions games... and while I have played D&D and Hero alot.. im stuck on this. 

 

I am looking for a way to do something similar to Insight / Sense Motive checks for the VS on Acting, Persuasion and such.  What would you all recommend?

 

Thank you

 

What's a VS?
 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary hazards a guess: Verification Sense?

[Ninja-Bear]

Then probably I’d just build a detect lies with req a skill roll.- appropriate interaction skill.

[Cantriped]

Every skill that has an opposed roll describes what rolls to use when. For example: Acting is opposed by an INT roll, Charm is opposed by EGO, Concealment is opposed by Perception or Concealment, Disguise is opposed by Perception, Forgery is opposed by Forgery, etc.

[massey]

We usually just use Perception.

[clnicholsusa]

If you're thinking PER is too broad for the specific 'insight' intended, characters with some skill in Acting or Persuasion could use a complementary skill roll with the PER roll.

[greypaladin_01]

Thanks for the inputs!    I tend to agree that INT / Perception seems to be the way to go for this.

 

To Clarify:   I am aware that certain skills have opposition skills, however it seems that for the most part they are built around PC vs NPC in their use.   PC1 uses Charm to try and get information from NPC1...  NPC1 rolls EGO check to see if they can resist letting anything slip.

It feels kinda clunky to use similar situation back on the players.  The thing I liked with the Sense Motive / Insight system was that it could be used as an assist for RP encounters.    PC2 is taking with NPC2 about a potential job...    NPC2 is attempting to downplay the danger and risk involved,  PC2 attempts an Insight check.

PC2 fails the check...  the player might feel suspicious, but there was nothing in the NPCs manor that PC2 noticed and they agree on the contract.

PC2 makes the check....  PC2 notices  odd body language or the fact the NPC is sweating a bit....  GM tells them "while the job seems genuine,  NPC2 seems to be a bit cagey about the danger"   thus allowing the players to try and press for more details and perhaps call the bluff.

 

EGO is more will power and resisting so felt wrong...  Perception seems more in line with this   INT rolls being for noticing things and drawing conclusions.

 

I am not against creating a new skill.... but hoping the other HERO gamers have some insight on ways to make this go smoothly.

 

Thanks again.

[Cantriped]

You are correct that the skills are written mostly for the player's use. That is because some skills just don't work properly when used on PC's... because the players can't or won't refrain from metagaming, and may even blank refuse to comply with the result of the check or be offended that you "took control of their character". Its generally advisible to work around not using those skills and avoid the fights with your players.

 

I'm not sure there is a meaningful distinction between the system you propose and what we already have.

For example in the second situation you posit the NPC is using Acting to bluff. Acting is opposed by an INT Roll: Because it involves noticing inconsistancies like that the NPC is sweating while talking about an "easy job" or "harmless pests", being more about critical thinking than perceptiveness you use your INT roll instead of PER (Even though it is also an INT roll). I would also allow a player to oppose Acting with Deduction.

 

You might have been thinking it was an example of Persuasion, but persuasion is for when you aren't just being deceptive, but actively trying to persuade someone of an untruth; like that a dragon's wings are vestigal and that they can't really fly... which would elicit an EGO Roll to disbelieve him if you had previously heard tales of flying dragons. They wouldn't even be allowed a roll, or it would automatically fail if you had recently seen a drafon flying.

 

Regarding the first example... why make it harder for yourself? The default rule is that if you fail a conversation roll badly, the target realizes they are being pumped for information. In otherwords it is normally something that you can adjudicate without having a target PC roll anything... if your NPC fails badly enough only then do you reveal that they were pumping the PC. If you call for an Insight roll the player is encouraged to act differently around the NPC no matter what the result was.

If the player catches on, despite successful Conversation rolls by the NPCs, I would allow the PC a Deduction roll to peice it all together.

[Cantriped]

Persuasion could be called seperately in the second example (and resisted appropriately by EGO) if one of the PCs actually makes their INT roll to notice the bluff, and the NPC now has to persuade the PC to take the job despite misgivings... However take note that players hate being told that a single die roll "persuaded" their character to accept the "easy job" (that is probably actually very dangerous).

[Cantriped]

Also... don't be afraid to make up new skills if you want.  HERO has numerous examples of custom skills created under the umbrella of either Analyze or Power (not to mention all the Background Skills).

 

If you want Insight to be a skill in your campaign, it can simply be an INT based Power Skill that you make an Everyman Skill or include in the Templates available to PCs.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Perception or conversation would work.

[greypaladin_01]

Thank you all for the assistance.   Ultimately I am trying to have an extra tool to give players to help with RP encounters.   Something to avoid their personal meta beliefs in situation or inablitiy to be as 'sharp' as their character might be to come into effect.

 

Ultimately I think perception is the way to go... unless I just create a new skill.  It is to give players a chance to help spot mistruths or lies from NPCs  but still allow the NPCs to try and 'bluff'   perhaps NPCs that are smooth talkers would have -3 on Insight check or some such...  

 

As always thank you all for the help!!

[Funk Thompson]

Yes, I believe there are notes about such "read a person" rolls under the Acting skill and several other "interaction skills."

 

They all note that the person attempting to "detect" their subterfuge or intent make a skill vs. skill roll, usually INT vs. the skill being used (see Acting skill in 6E1 p. 63)

 

So, there is no "Insight" skill (but you could easily make one) but rather raw INT vs. the interaction skill roll.

 

[Funk Thompson]

I could see EGO or PRE as the opposing skill in certain circumstances (EGO vs. seduction, for instance - willpower to resist the urge?)

 

Edit:  And yes, the Charm skill is vs. EGO

[Christopher R Taylor]

I allow any interactive skill that has an "aggressive" aspect such as persuasion and oratory to affect others to be used defensively as well.  He's using his oratory skill to sway you, but you are good at oratory as well and can recognize what he's doing.

[Lucius]

You can buy Skill Levels with INT rolls, Limited to this purpose.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary buys kill levels within Trolls.

 

 

[drunkonduty]

For my fantasy game I've gone with make up a new skill. It's called Awareness and comes off of INT. It's opposed by Acting.

[Ockham's Spoon]

I think PER roll is the way to go, but I would make other skills complimentary as circumstances dictate (Streetwise, Acting, KS: Psychology, etc.)

[Barwickian]

Hero System Skills expands Analyze to other areas, including Analyze Motive, which if just made allows a PC to realise an influence skill is being use on them, and if made by a greater margin of success, which influence skill is being used on them, or whther they're being lied to.