What about a speed of 12?

[Soggybag]

I just found my old Champions books and was re-reading them for the first time in 30 years! I bought the original rules in 1981 or there about. This is a really great game in just 64 pages, total genius work.

 

I started making up some characters for fun. I had the idea that you could make a really fast annoying villain with a speed of 12, with a Dex of 20 this would cost 120 points. With some disadvantages you could have small energy blast. Might be fun to play.

 

Looking through Enemies I, II, and III i don’t see a villain with a Speed higher than 7, maybe there was one with 8. I seem to remember to playing once with Bruce Harlick, who turned our group on to the rules way back when, I remember him saying pre game that he wouldn’t allow characters with super high Dex or Spd. 

 

Its been so long since I played I can’t decide if this breaks the game, lacks efficiency, or is a non issue. It does seem like it might be a fun concept for an alternative character type. What are your thoughts?

[Duke Bushido]

It doesn't really break the game, particularly if it is a a villain and you're the GM: you know when to adjust tactics, etc, if the players aren't having a good time.

 

The problem from the player angle tends to be one of "screen time."  If everyone is running around with a SPD 5, the SPD 12 guy is going to get a lot more screen time.

 

Do remember the one "catch" to a high SPD: when you do twice as many things as everyone else, you burn twice as much END as everyone else.

 

Other than that, Speedsters are my personal favorite archetype, so I'm really not the guy to get a fair and unbiased answer from.

[Killer Shrike]

I allowed a SPD 12 character in a supers game, a teleporting spatial awareness martial artist called Fade, waaaaaay back in 4e days. It worked fine, but the insight I garnered was that it's overkill. Often there just wasn't enough useful stuff for the character to do to fill 12 segments consistently. And of course END can be an issue unless you pay for reduced END or a reserve. 

 

Really, speedsters are often better off at between 7-9 SPD and use the points on something else. Once the novelty of 12 SPD runs out, the return on investment isn't strong.

 

[bubba smith]

speed 12 might count as super speed or a flash type hero

[Soggybag]

Good points, I’m using the 1st edition rules where endurance cost is higher. Since you can each phase a spd 12 character would potentially be faster, a lot faster, but it cost 2 end per inch of movement. With that in mind end becomes the biggest drawback. 

 

Screen time is another issue, makes this concept best for a villain. Whom I picture with a really annoying personality to go with a fairly annoying power. 

[Hugh Neilson]

There was a villain published in Adventurers Club with massive DEX and 12 SPD, as I recall.  He attracted a lot of finger-pointing, although it was noted he's the type of villain that the comic characters fight ineffectually for a few panels, then think outside the box (his defenses and STUN were poor, so picking up a table and smacking him with it was pretty effective).

[Soggybag]

13 minutes ago, Hugh Neilson said:

There was a villain published in Adventurers Club with massive DEX and 12 SPD, as I recall.  He attracted a lot of finger-pointing, although it was noted he's the type of villain that the comic characters fight ineffectually for a few panels, then think outside the box (his defenses and STUN were poor, so picking up a table and smacking him with it was pretty effective).

 

Oh yeah, that’s exact;y what I had in mind. Maybe a small time guy that keeps escaping, and showing up to harass heroes repeatedly. Maybe there is a situation where they need this guys ability to solve a bigger problem...

[Christopher R Taylor]

The primary limitations on speed that high are endurance cost (even in 6th edition, actin 12 times in a turn before the free recovery is going to very quickly burn through your available END) and cost.  Because this is so expensive, its going to require the rest of the character to be built around this, a demonstration of the elegance of Hero's system.  You'll pay a lot for reduced END, which will limit the power of attacks and movement abilities, making the character act a lot, but not actually be very dangerous.  Unless you give them Dr Destroyer-level points, then its just a "well he has whatever he needs to win every fight" and you don't even care how expensive they are.

[archer]

You could allow a SPD of 12 if the character has huge flaws such as very low defense and/or a very weak attack. I don't think a player would be satisfied playing a character like that and the other players at the table would be irritated at all the extra phases that PC would get.

 

====

 

One of the SPD charts, I think 4th edition, had a SPD 5 overlapping all five of its phases with someone who had a SPD 8. So I built a character who had a base 5 SPD.  Then I gave him a  +3 SPD which had an activation roll of 11 (which cut the cost significantly). At the beginning of the three phases where a SPD 5 and 8 don't overlap, I rolled his SPD activation to see whether the character could act that phase or not.

 

The mechanics of it worked smoothly and it made the character more unpredictable than he would have been otherwise. It worked well for a villain and would have worked, I think for a PC if that campaign had actually happened as planned.

 

I did worry that it was borderline abusive since the activation limitation cut the cost in half but allowed the character to have the extra SPD around 60% of the time. That doesn't matter so much with most powers but with all the advantages which having extra SPD created, it was a cause of concern. If someone wanted to buy enough extra SPD to act in every segment but with all the extra SPD having an activation 11-, I probably wouldn't allow the character: the cost savings (reducing from the 120 points example in the original post down to 60 points). would probably allow the player buy enough skills or powers to do degenerate things.

[Hugh Neilson]

5 minutes ago, archer said:

I did worry that it was borderline abusive since the activation limitation cut the cost in half but allowed the character to have the extra SPD around 60% of the time. That doesn't matter so much with most powers but with all the advantages which having extra SPD created, it was a cause of concern. If someone wanted to buy enough extra SPD to act in every segment but with all the extra SPD having an activation 11-, I probably wouldn't allow the character: the cost savings (reducing from the 120 points example in the original post down to 60 points). would probably allow the player buy enough skills or powers to do degenerate things.

 

i consider the point savings reflective of  both the odds of the ability working and the inability to determine in advance whether it will work. 

 

Unless the character starts by selling all his SPD back, he's not paying 120 points so he's not saving 60 points.  Uncertainty on when my next phase will occur causes tactical issues, so I think the savings are reasonable, assuming I'd be willing to have a character able to act with a 12 SPD if the dice are favourable (knowing that, sometimes, they will beat the odds the other way).  Should I conserve my END in Ph 10, since may have another 2 phases to act, or go for broke now and hope I don't have to pay any more END before my PS12 recovery?  Do I delay, knowing it may be the same as forfeiting my phase?  When will my Dodge bonus run out?  Unpredictability can be a serious concern.

[Soggybag]

4 minutes ago, archer said:

You could allow a SPD of 12 if the character has huge flaws such as very low defense and/or a very weak attack. I don't think a player would be satisfied playing a character like that and the other players at the table would be irritated at all the extra phases that PC would get.

 

====

 

One of the SPD charts, I think 4th edition, had a SPD 5 overlapping all five of its phases with someone who had a SPD 8. So I built a character who had a base 5 SPD.  Then I gave him a  +3 SPD which had an activation roll of 11 (which cut the cost significantly). At the beginning of the three phases where a SPD 5 and 8 don't overlap, I rolled his SPD activation to see whether the character could act that phase or not.

 

The mechanics of it worked smoothly and it made the character more unpredictable than he would have been otherwise. It worked well for a villain and would have worked, I think for a PC if that campaign had actually happened as planned.

 

I did worry that it was borderline abusive since the activation limitation cut the cost in half but allowed the character to have the extra SPD around 60% of the time. That doesn't matter so much with most powers but with all the advantages which having extra SPD created, it was a cause of concern. If someone wanted to buy enough extra SPD to act in every segment but with all the extra SPD having an activation 11-, I probably wouldn't allow the character: the cost savings (reducing from the 120 points example in the original post down to 60 points). would probably allow the player buy enough skills or powers to do degenerate things.

 

Good points.

 

On the speed activation, I think I would rule that you’d have to roll the 11< at the beginning of the turn and it would apply for the whole turn. Not sure what the math rally is. Seems like you’d have a 50% of using the ability on any phase it would apply you’d likely always get an extra phase maybe two each turn. I guess costwise it’s about the buying one extra point of Speed. 

 

This has me thinking about the Speed serum! Maybe the nefarious Dr Brogolio has developed a serum that increases Speed with the limited use limitation. Maybe just 1 use. So for a turn a villain is moving every phase... maybe the serum also has some endurance bonus.

 

This could also be a time compression effect tied to an OIF/OAF... I think I have a new villain. Could be a cool trick for the villain to escape. While robbing a heavily guarded research facility Octonion is interrupted by some heroes, just when they think they have him captured, activating the time compression utility, he  starts moving at lightning speed and escapes. 

[Soggybag]

The idea of and activation for speed has a lot of flavor. I imagine a character who moves in and out of time, sort of “phasing” in and out. 

 

I’ll reiterate what a genius game Champions was in 1981!

 

The only drawback is the complexity. The calculation in character creation, is really fun,but requires pretty good understanding of the rules. Without you’re character is probably going to be under powered. In play the book keeping and dice calculations for damage and knock back can be pretty slow. 

 

I feel like everyone needs a software application to keep track of everything during play!

 

Everyone needs to be on it with the rules. My current group plays D&D 5e the rules are easy, we have a few drinks. 

[Christopher]

17 hours ago, Soggybag said:

Looking through Enemies I, II, and III i don’t see a villain with a Speed higher than 7, maybe there was one with 8. I seem to remember to playing once with Bruce Harlick, who turned our group on to the rules way back when, I remember him saying pre game that he wouldn’t allow characters with super high Dex or Spd. 

  

Its been so long since I played I can’t decide if this breaks the game, lacks efficiency, or is a non issue. It does seem like it might be a fun concept for an alternative character type. What are your thoughts? 

I feel that a speed over 7-8 should be reserved for "Single Villains that Challenge the Group". It is right up there with giving them percentile Damage Reduction in mandatory changes. Part of the "turns normal villain into boss villain" package.

 

That now of them natively have that speed, means you can add 4-5 SPD to just about any enemy as part of making them the boss villain.

 

I think I first noticed this Trend with the Console Game Grandia II. All the bossfights had multiple actors on the enemies side. 1 tough guy plus 2 slightly smaler. 1 though guy that summons smaler.  And most often, a monster with numerours independantly acting pieces "attached" to it. They die if the main part dies, but defating each piece independantly can still be beneficial (one actor less that buffs/heals the enemy, debuffs/damages the party).

In Hero you do that with "Hydra Head" like Duplication. Or extra SPD.

In Open Legens RPG, the "Boss NPC" just get plain extra Boss actions (that is actually the name of them). On top of minor resistances and a number of strong stats.

[Duke Bushido]

3 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

so picking up a table and smacking him with it was pretty effective).

 

[Soggybag]

Yeah it’s strategy, but there would be a weakness for characters to figure out. 

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

i consider the point savings reflective of  both the odds of the ability working and the inability to determine in advance whether it will work. 

 

Yeah, its not just how often you get the power but how often you can rely on it for strategy and use in combat.  Just because you can get it 60% of the time doesn't mean you can really build a reliable strategy around it: I really need to do this next phase, but can I?

[Scott Ruggels]

One of our GMs used a a low speed, a really low speed, that scared the hell out of all of us. it had a speed of 0.8 (estimated). If you  buy your speed down, you get a whole lot of points, So the Shafer Death bot was born. When Activated it would go on Phase 7, then next  turn on Phase 8, and then next turn Phase 9... ect. ect...  It turned a coordinated team of superheroes into panicked screaming monkeys, when it one shotted the brick, and then slowly turned its attention to the survivors.

 

 We then had 13 segments to take it down before it  shot again, and we were speed 5 and 6.  it managed to shoot again and took out the  Speedster. Taking it down was one of those heavy sweat incidents. 

[Soggybag]

2 minutes ago, Scott Ruggels said:

One of our GMs used a a low speed, a really low speed, that scared the hell out of all of us. it had a speed of 0.8 (estimated). If you  buy your speed down, you get a whole lot of points, So the Shafer Death bot was born. When Activated it would go on Phase 7, then next  turn on Phase 8, and then next turn Phase 9... ect.

 

That’s brilliant, especially for a villain. You don’t have to worry about balance so much. Makes for a fun combat, maybe easier to GM, you’re only rolling dice and making decisions once a turn!

[Hugh Neilson]

3 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

 

Yeah, its not just how often you get the power but how often you can rely on it for strategy and use in combat.  Just because you can get it 60% of the time doesn't mean you can really build a reliable strategy around it: I really need to do this next phase, but can I?

 

I've used activation on +1 SPD (rolled each turn) and it worked fairly well, but it was intended as a gradation as the character gradually bought SPD up with xp.  Having a 6 SPD, 12 SPD on 11- would actually be more reliable if you rolled once a turn than rolled for each additional phase, as you would know whether your next phase is in one segment or two.

[Christopher R Taylor]

The big problem is, of course, the way that he rules state how speed changes are supposed to happen.  Technically it would never work, because it has to be the next turn and a shared phase.

[clnicholsusa]

When I started with first edition, there had been recent calculus lessons. I applied those processes to discovering what values were most cost effective (the CON equations took four pages). Until version 6, your best bet was a SPD of 9 and a DEX as high as you could afford. The version one character I created had a 35 DEX with his 9 SPD. He was fun to play till the opposition figured out he would avoid anything that wasn't an area affect.

[Duke Bushido]

1 hour ago, Scott Ruggels said:

One of our GMs used a a low speed, a really low speed, that scared the hell out of all of us. it had a speed of 0.8 (estimated). If you  buy your speed down, you get a whole lot of points, So the Shafer Death bot was born. When Activated it would go on Phase 7, then next  turn on Phase 8, and then next turn Phase 9... ect. ect...

 

1 hour ago, Soggybag said:

 

That’s brilliant, especially for a villain. 

 

 

Agreed.  That _is_ brilliant!

 

Fractional SPD comes up in my games now and again-- (usually players slowly buying up their SPD).  I have never found it to be the big game-breaker it's advertised as.  But I never considered the effects on players of something with a SPD _less than 1_.  Absolutely wonderful!

 

[assault]

I've sketched out, but never played, 12 SPD Flash homages. 400 points 6e works well. 350 points would be OK for 5th.

 

I think 350 would also work in 1e, despite the extra END cost. That's without Limitations. With them, 300 points should work. Think Johnny Quick rather than the Flash.

 

For the sake of efficiency, it might be worth dropping a few points of SPD though. 9-10 is near enough to 12, and if you are using limitations on the character, it wouldn't be too hard to buy 12 with experience over time.

Am I talking through my hat? Let's try a quick proof of concept. As a reminder, I'm working with 1e, avoiding cheesy options, especially the ones eliminated in 2e!

 

Let's assume the character would be a novice with few if any skills, base Int, Ego and Com, and only a moderate Pre. We can modify most of the character's abilities with Only In Hero ID (+1/4). I'll ignore that in the following. The points below are unmodified.

 

The character's powers can be bought for about 100 points. Use Martial Arts as the main attack "power", because it's 0 End. Otherwise, it's defenses and movement powers. Add the frills later.

Usually I budget about 100 points for characteristics other than Int, Ego, Pre and Com. (I boost Str, PD and ED when I buy powers.) This is influenced by the 2e-3e suggestions. In this case, I'd run heavy on Dex, and ignore Spd until the next step.

Obviously the next step is to slap on lots of Spd. That will cost less than 100 points, depending on the points spent on Dex in the previous step.

 

You will need to do a fair bit of tuning, but the result should be a character with decent defenses, a decent attack, high combat values (but only base ECV) and a 12 Speed. His or her movement powers might be regrettably slow on a per phase basis, but not necessarily.

 

This wouldn't be a perfectly balanced character, but wouldn't be unbalancing to a game, wouldn't be cheesy, and wouldn't be crippled by a "very low defense and/or a very weak attack" unless the GM insists on it. In which case I would scrap the character, because it wouldn't be fun to play.

[assault]

19 hours ago, Soggybag said:

Since you can each phase a spd 12 character would potentially be faster, a lot faster, but it cost 2 end per inch of movement.

 

Sorry, I must have missed something here.

 

What is the "2 end per inch of movement" referring to?

[Tech]

In our campaign, we have one hero with a SPD of 10. No one has a higher SPD (on the hero side). The problem I see with a high SPD isn't cost but player compatibility: is this person going to be a glory-hog? It can be a problem if not carefully observed. It's the glory-hog aspect I watch out for.