Guidelines Block Range Attack

[Ninja-Bear]

For clarification, when I asked about reliability, I’m referring to Penalties that can applied in game. In HSMA there is a Anime Power where the Player can pluck bullets out of the air. It’s bought +6 OCV to Block bullets. And in the description it states that this should be enough to offset potential penalties. This is where I get a little hung up.  Is a -6 average? Unreasonable?

[Ninja-Bear]

Btw, what is the suggested penalty to Block Lasers?

[archer]

I much prefer playing and GM-ing with 4e Missile Deflection rules. I know what I'm getting and not getting in every situation, simply and easily.

 

As far as IRL goes when I was much younger, my friend and I saw someone on That's Incredible! snatch an arrow out of the air with his bare hands. The guy was a trained martial artist of some sort, had years of experience, and was standing to the side as the arrow was going by.

 

We thought, "We could do that too" but (not being totally stupid) we decided to start out by catching darts out of the air. (Darts at the time were the only ranged weapon magic-users could use in D&D so we thought, why not?)

 

My friend learned to catch darts out of the air, which I was throwing deliberately slowly and predictably, in about five minutes. After a few hours, I could catch about a third of the ones he threw, deflect or got poked a third  of the time and miss entirely the rest of the time. I found out later than I had some rather severe uncorrected depth perception problems compared to everyone else in the world so looking back on it, I don;t feel as bad about my lack of success as I did at the time.

 

But that was with each of us throwing deliberately slowly and the other knowing in advance when the dart was coming. When the speeds went up even moderately, neither of us were successful (and neither of us were stupid enough to try standing directly in front of the dart and let the other attempt to throw it hard).

 

As a game mechanic, I just can't believe Missile Deflection as an everyman skill.

[Netzilla]

1 hour ago, Ninja-Bear said:

For clarification, when I asked about reliability, I’m referring to Penalties that can applied in game. In HSMA there is a Anime Power where the Player can pluck bullets out of the air. It’s bought +6 OCV to Block bullets. And in the description it states that this should be enough to offset potential penalties. This is where I get a little hung up.  Is a -6 average? Unreasonable?

For an anime martial arts genre where HtH combat is the focus and guns are downplayed, -6 seems perfectly reasonable.  If it were a James Bond style espionage or an Indiana Jones pulp adventure style of game, I'd rule it impossible.  What genre are you looking at?

[Ninja-Bear]

Netzilla I wasn’t looking at a particular Genre per se. What I’m trying to see is how GM have interpreted this new rule in their games particular to the genre in play. So I expect there to be differences.  By default though, I’m curious to Superheroic level. 

 

Also the the way I read Impossible to Block  (or Not possible to Block) as not so much as never being able to be Blocked with the right Power or sfx, just not anyone even with a HUGH Penalty could try.  So with my original post I mentioned Fantasy. In the Fantasy game I said magic cannot be Blocked. So even with a shield, a warrior wouldn’t have a chance to Block however a warrior with a magic shield should be able to block said spell. So should I set a cost, say -6 OCV, and build the shield from there or should I use the Deflection Power instead. 

[Netzilla]

Either approach is viable.  I'd probably go with the OCV mod because, RAW, Deflect only works against Ranged attacks (so HA and HKA would be immune to the shield).

[Ninja-Bear]

27 minutes ago, Netzilla said:

Either approach is viable.  I'd probably go with the OCV mod because, RAW, Deflect only works against Ranged attacks (so HA and HKA would be immune to the shield).

Speaking of Deflect and Range, in Champions Powers under Strength Powers, Steve Long has a Power, “Your Puny Energy Blasts Don’t effect me!” and it’s Deflect with No Range. Which really messed with me. (Yes I know he has a disclaimer in the book that even those builds aren’t Gospel-but still!)

Edited March 23, 2019 by Ninja-Bear
Added thought

[Ninja-Bear]

Btw, that we’re I got the notion of Deflect and reliability. If you buy Deflect, then you’re at base OCV and not at GM’s discretion. Plus I saw it as then Deflect should allow you to Block (because you spent points and sfx) what by game guidelines you couldn’t. I read into the Power that normally you couldn’t Block Energy Blasts but the Brick allows you to.

[Hugh Neilson]

3 hours ago, archer said:

As a game mechanic, I just can't believe Missile Deflection as an everyman skill.

 

Again, this feels like selective realism.  Why is Blocking a ranged attack not an "everyman skill", but blocking a punch, a baseball bat, a knife, a diving tackle, a sword, a tiger's claws or a charging elephant all OK as an Everyman skill (Block)?  Allowing Block of ranged attack as an "every important character" skill seems reasonable if we are looking for a cinematic game.  One more dial to set for the genre and specific game.

[Chris Goodwin]

4 minutes ago, Hugh Neilson said:

 

Again, this feels like selective realism.  Why is Blocking a ranged attack not an "everyman skill", but blocking a punch, a baseball bat, a knife, a diving tackle, a sword, a tiger's claws or a charging elephant all OK as an Everyman skill (Block)?  Allowing Block of ranged attack as an "every important character" skill seems reasonable if we are looking for a cinematic game.  One more dial to set for the genre and specific game.

 

Because the GM said so?

 

Because not everyone can even Block a punch, much less a tiger claw or a charging elephant?

 

Because the GM wants Blocking ranged attacks to be something special in his game?

 

I see any of those as valid reasons.  

[Chris Goodwin]

Why do we assume that a person who can Block a punch can also Block a tiger claw, and that therefore they can Block lasers?  

 

Why don't we then assume that a person who can Block a laser that's targeting themselves can't Block a laser that's targeting someone across the room from them?

[Scott Ruggels]

14 minutes ago, Hugh Neilson said:

 

Again, this feels like selective realism.  Why is Blocking a ranged attack not an "everyman skill", but blocking a punch, a baseball bat, a knife, a diving tackle, a sword, a tiger's claws or a charging elephant all OK as an Everyman skill (Block)?  Allowing Block of ranged attack as an "every important character" skill seems reasonable if we are looking for a cinematic game.  One more dial to set for the genre and specific game.

Simple size and speed of the incoming projectile. “Everyman’s” first instinct, is to duck a rock or projectile thrown at them, not deflect, or reflect, as that takes training, first to avoid the “ flinch”, and second, to control the projectile. 

 

“Cinematic”covers a wide territory from 80’s action schlock, like The Sword & The Sorcerer, to gritty realism of Saving Private Ryan.  Having dabbled in film making for a few years, the conditions are quite variable, between script, director, and budget. (Not to mention crew skill and competency. ). However, I have been gaming longer,  and found that a lot of people desire, when they say “Cinematic” is some variation of that 80’s style schlock, or card board cool. I’d like to think I run a higher quality game than that. 

[Hugh Neilson]

3 hours ago, Chris Goodwin said:

 

1.   Because the GM said so?

 

2.   Because not everyone can even Block a punch, much less a tiger claw or a charging elephant?

 

3.   Because the GM wants Blocking ranged attacks to be something special in his game?

 

I see any of those as valid reasons.  

 

3 hours ago, Chris Goodwin said:

4.   Why do we assume that a person who can Block a punch can also Block a tiger claw, and that therefore they can Block lasers?  

 

5.   Why don't we then assume that a person who can Block a laser that's targeting themselves can't Block a laser that's targeting someone across the room from them?

 

1.   The GM can decide that haymakers don't exist too.  Changing the rules to fit the game is part of customizing the Hero system to create a game.  If RAW says Block is Everyman, so anyone can attempt to Block any HTH attack, we accept that (the GM would have to say no, not so).  Now, the RAW says blocking ranged attacks is also generally allowed.

 

2.   This argues that Block should not be an Everyman maneuver, doesn't it?  Instead, since 1e, it has been permitted, but the GM can apply penalties.  Not everyone can block a punch, but cinematic action heros can, so it's a basic maneuver.  It's pretty cinematic to Block at least some ranged attacks as well, isn't it?

 

3.   But at present, Block is not something special by default.  Why is is so much worse for Blocking ranged attacks to not be something special by default?

 

4.   The RAW sets Block as a standard maneuver, and that maneuver allows Blocking a punch and a tiger claw.  Blocking a laser requires a roll at OCV zero since, realistically, lasers are invisible.  But a "movie laser"?  I've seen action heroes block those with reflective surfaces.

 

5.   At this point, we do assume that  Deflection is the "block attacks at range" power in 6e. 

 

Would I let a cinematic character try to prevent Grond punching some poor defenseless civilian by throwing a heavy object to divert his punch?  Yeah, probably - it's heroic, cinematic and fun, so why not?   Would I let Stalwart Sam try to prevent Dastardly Dick from shooting Incessantly Imperiled Iris by throwing a bible to jar his gun hand?  Yeah, probably - it's heroic, cinematic and fun, so why not? 

 

But it won't be as easy for someone without Deflection.

 

2 hours ago, Scott Ruggels said:

Simple size and speed of the incoming projectile. “Everyman’s” first instinct, is to duck a rock or projectile thrown at them, not deflect, or reflect, as that takes training, first to avoid the “ flinch”, and second, to control the projectile. 

 

“Cinematic”covers a wide territory from 80’s action schlock, like The Sword & The Sorcerer, to gritty realism of Saving Private Ryan.  Having dabbled in film making for a few years, the conditions are quite variable, between script, director, and budget. (Not to mention crew skill and competency. ). However, I have been gaming longer,  and found that a lot of people desire, when they say “Cinematic” is some variation of that 80’s style schlock, or card board cool. I’d like to think I run a higher quality game than that. 

 

Now we are back to MicroMan and his amazing flying move through.  How easy is it to Dodge a bullet?  Everyone can get +3 DCV, in most situations when the gun is fired (Abort).  Or they can Dive for Cover.  How realistic is that?  I can leap 4 meters less time than it takes the bullet (or laser beam) to cross the room?

 

"gritty realism"  and "cinematic" have historically been opposite ends of the scale in Hero parlance.  In a very gritty game, ranged blocks might not be allowed by default.  But would I tell a PC he can't try to throw off a rifleman's aim by throwing his helmet, or a fair-sized rock, at the rifle from a few meters away?  Seems like that kind of thing happens in even "realistic" cinema.

[Hugh Neilson]

While some here pooh pooh the ability to block a ranged attack, a few threads over they are discussing characters circling the earth several times in a single attack action and punching a mountain to lower its height so a plane won't crash.

 

Is it possible that some Hero defaults may require resetting in some games?  Choosing whether, and at what penalties, an attack can be blocked seems like it doesn't ask a lot more than choosing whether solid hits knock a target down or send them flying backwards, which we have had to do since 1e (well, actually, 1e just said we have knockback, so I guess you had to be enslaved by the rules and accept it, right?).

[archer]

4 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

 

Again, this feels like selective realism.  Why is Blocking a ranged attack not an "everyman skill", but blocking a punch, a baseball bat, a knife, a diving tackle, a sword, a tiger's claws or a charging elephant all OK as an Everyman skill (Block)? 

 

You could very easily talk me into not allowing the blocking of melee attacks be an everyman skill.

 

I have some experience in not being able to block ranged "attacks".

 

I have no experience at all with being in a brawl and trying to block a melee attack. I suspect that if I had tried at some point that I would have been spectacularly unsuccessful repeatedly.

[Scott Ruggels]

1 hour ago, Hugh Neilson said:

 

 

Now we are back to MicroMan and his amazing flying move through.  How easy is it to Dodge a bullet?  Everyone can get +3 DCV, in most situations when the gun is fired (Abort).  Or they can Dive for Cover.  How realistic is that?  I can leap 4 meters less time than it takes the bullet (or laser beam) to cross the room?

 

"gritty realism"  and "cinematic" have historically been opposite ends of the scale in Hero parlance.  In a very gritty game, ranged blocks might not be allowed by default.  But would I tell a PC he can't try to throw off a rifleman's aim by throwing his helmet, or a fair-sized rock, at the rifle from a few meters away?  Seems like that kind of thing happens in even "realistic" cinema.

 

I was not a Silver Age fan.  I saw the tail end of it, but even as a small child “Camp” was an anathema. The 1966 Batman, and the final two seasons on Lost in Space made me roll my eyes. It’s part of the reason, I went away from Superhero gaming after high school. I am not a genre guy apart from the initial setting. So the examples you bring up are lost on me until the last one. Anything involving a active gunfight means all parties have to make PRE rolls to expose themselves to enemy fire. A sergeant has to make a higher PRE attack upon his troops to get them to act, than the PRE threshold of the automatic fire coming their way. Yes the PRE degrades over time. But it starts fresh for each engagement.

 

As to Micro man, I would give him A Special that due to his size, that any block would be against his DCV, with all the additional DCV due to his reduced size, plus any relevant CSLs bought as “avoid being blocked while moving through” and/or avoiding a Martial throw. Micro Man  would be nearly impossible to block, in his move through, but then again, that’s his schtick. 

[Greywind]

3 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

While some here pooh pooh the ability to block a ranged attack, a few threads over they are discussing characters circling the earth several times in a single attack action and punching a mountain to lower its height so a plane won't crash.

 

Are they considering the environmental ramifications of so much displaced earth?

[Chris Goodwin]

If I were playing a Jedi in a 5th edition Champions game, and I'd bought Missile Deflection at the 20 point level so that I could Block any deflectable attacks, at a straight OCV vs. OCV roll, otherwise at will... what would I need to buy in 6th edition to do the same thing?  

 

I want my character to be able to do the same thing in 6th edition that he could do under 5th.  

 

I bought a Power in 5th edition to do that because it was assumed that nobody could do that unless they had a Power.  

 

If anyone can do it now, with the same facility as I could then, without buying a Power.. I'd be pissed, and IMO rightly so.  

 

Anyone can *try* to Block bullets or lasers...?  Well, I can *try* to jump 50 meters straight up, but I guarantee I won't succeed unless I buy some Leaping.  

 

So, what do I need my Jedi to buy in 6th edition so that he can Block everything he could in 5th edition with the same amount of reliability (which is what I mean by "reliably") using Missile Deflection at 20 points?

[archer]

5 minutes ago, Chris Goodwin said:

 

So, what do I need my Jedi to buy in 6th edition so that he can Block everything he could in 5th edition with the same amount of reliability (which is what I mean by "reliably") using Missile Deflection at 20 points?

 

You determine the maximum number of absurd penalties which the most anal-retentive GM at a convention could possibly throw at your character then buy that many skill levels in your everyman ranged blocking ability?

[Hugh Neilson]

2 hours ago, Chris Goodwin said:

So, what do I need my Jedi to buy in 6th edition so that he can Block everything he could in 5th edition with the same amount of reliability (which is what I mean by "reliably") using Missile Deflection at 20 points?

 

I would say Deflection (20 points), No Range (-1/2), OIF Lightsaber of Opportunity (-1/2) for 10 points.  You can now Block, to your heart's content, any ranged attack just like you could in 6e, but for a reduced cost.

 

Or you could pay 13 points, which would avoid the need for a Lightsaber - just wave your hand.

 

Or you could be truly skilled at this Force Power, take no limitation and apply No Range Modifier.  That is the example power Telekinetic Deflection, and enables you to Block ranged attacks at range.  Or make it Range Line of Sight - you can Block any missile attack within your line of sight.  How would I buy those abilities  pre-6e?
 

Anyone else trying to Block a blaster bolt will need an appropriate item to do so, and be subject to whatever limitations and penalties the GM considers appropriate.

 

Now, what do I buy in any edition to enable my Jedi to Block a Sith's lightsaber and a Stormtrooper's Blaster in the same phase?
 

[Grailknight]

This is not an everyman power.

 

 

[dmjalund]

personal rule of thumb for Blocking

 

you can block an attack of you ( or specifically the limb or focus used to block the attack) can fend off the minimum possible damage the attack can do

 

e.g.

someone with 3PD can block a 3D6 attack

someone with 1rPD can block a 1d6 HKA attack

 

[Ninja-Bear]

1 hour ago, dmjalund said:

personal rule of thumb for Blocking

 

you can block an attack of you ( or specifically the limb or focus used to block the attack) can fend off the minimum possible damage the attack can do

 

e.g.

someone with 3PD can block a 3D6 attack

someone with 1rPD can block a 1d6 HKA attack

 

I’ve never heard of a system like this before. I think it’s neat.

[Ninja-Bear]

Now when I said I have the gist of the new rule, here is what I mean. I think it’s to loosen up the rules so that “logical” things can happen in the game. For example (I’m pretty sure you couldn’t do this pre-6th), Now the warrior with the shield CAN block arrows with shield by default. Before, that didn’t make sense. Or better yet, say in a Spy game, the Hero could use an old book to Block a knife, or depending how thick a bullet. (You know FRED has stopped a bullet before ?).. 

[Ninja-Bear]

Another question I have is can you multiple Deflect as you can Block (with of course appropriate penalties)? If you can’t, then buying levels in Block might be the more attractive option.