Lord Liaden

Re: Older HERO rules in 5E games

Re: Giant Robot RPG (carry over post to SH from DC) Thank you, TH. That clears things up nicely. Essentially you want to your HERO mecha game to feel more like the ones you've liked in the past, but with the benefits of the HERO System. Which is understandable and reasonable. I believe that when you get Robot Warriors and go over Chris's notes, you'll find that Size Class and Ground Movement deal with some of your concerns about vehicle Speed and movement rates, as well as some issues about combat between mechs of different sizes. Lots of us use rule variants to adjust damage capability in various circumstances - I use a bunch myself - but I'm going to hold off suggesting any more until you've had a chance to digest all the relevant data, and are ready to ask for help with particular issues.

Let me make one thing clear at the outset: overall I love HERO Fifth Edition. I love the clarity, I love the general consistency, I love all the new options. I consider it a step up from Fourth Edition, which I also loved. Notheless, there are a few changes, additions or omissions from earlier parts of the ruleset that just don't feel right to me, or leave me going when I try to understand why they were made. In some cases I've ported rules from earlier editions of HERO which I felt dealt with elements better than the 5E default. I'm not talking about just changing the current rules to work "my way," but actually using rules that were previously official in place of or in addition to ones that are official now. Some recent rules discussions here on the boards have left me curious as to what older rules some of you might have brought into your 5E games, and what you think using them does to improve your HERO gaming experience. If possible I'd prefer to avoid rants against any of the present rules that irk you - constructive input would be more welcome. Let me start with a few of my most notable ones: Regeneration. The official build uses complicated Modifiers to create a very specific effect, yet the end result still violates the rule limiting the maximum that can be Healed based on the number of Healing dice you buy. I've continued to use 4E Regeneration, but also apply the new Adders and Limitations for Healing. Generally more expensive, but the simplicity of it is worth it to me and my players. Shockwaves. The rules for creating Shockwaves from Champions III wonderfully simulate the classic comic-book effect, with all its benefits and restrictions, moreso IMO than creating a separate Power build for it. I've allowed any characters in my supers game to generate a Shockwave with Strength or any Body-damaging Power; however, they need to buy a +1/4 Advantage to their attack in order to do so reliably. Alternatively, they can improvise a rare Shockwave with successful use of the Power Skill. Self-Inflicted Damage. I use a modified version of this rule from 'way back in the original (pre-Fourth Edition) Golden Age of Champions. As it stands in 5E there's no detrimental effect on a normal human trying to punch his way through a brick wall, unless you want to give every wall and other hard object its own Damage Shield. This rule provides a simple, easy to use way to adjudicate hurting yourself when hitting anything with Resistant Defenses (including supertough characters - remember the last scene with the diner bully in Superman II?) So, what elder HERO arcana have you resurrected?

Re: generation / Healing Besides the very complicated Modifiers used to build the new Regeneration, what irks me most about it is that it violates the rule about the maximum amount of a Characteristic that can be Healed based on the number of dice of Healing that you buy. Regeneration does not have a maximum; it eventually restores full Body to a user regardless of how little was bought for it, and there's nothing in the official build that would account for this difference. Why go to all the trouble of modifying something according to the official rules, if the result is an exception to those rules anyway? Practically speaking, I don't see why we couldn't have had Regeneration still be subset of Healing, but just work differently. After all, that's exactly the relationship between Succor and Aid. You probably could modify Aid to function like Succor does, but would it be worth the effort? (In case you're wondering, I've decided to use 4E Regeneration in my games, with the additional Adders and Limitations for 5E Healing. It tends to cost more, but the simplicity is worth it to me and my players.)

Re: Giant Robot RPG (carry over post to SH from DC) Thia, these observations are really intriguing to me. That's not a criticism, just a legitimate curiosity about observations from someone looking at the system with fresh eyes. I know that quite a few HERO gamers are dissatisfied that the vehicle builds "feel like people," but I would have thought that for a game featuring anthropomorphic giant robots, that would be a plus. As for distinctions for weapons on different vehicles that are built with the same system stats, "dramatic sense" is pretty much the main distinction with all HERO builds. The only thing that separates a 2D6 RKA Autofire 10 on a mech from the same thing on any other vehicle is special effects. FWIW I've ignored the prohibition on the "Size +DC vs. smaller vehicles" rule from TUV going in the other direction, i.e. smaller vehicle weapons doing less damage against larger ones, and the results of such conflicts have seemed more reasonable to me, especially when using any of the published prewritten vehicles. I even extend that rule to human-size attackers, as Humans would be Size 0; this has largely eliminated the "sink a trireme with arrows" phenomenon. FWIW2, the Robot Warriors construction and combat rules make mecha significantly different from people, which may be more to your liking. I'd be interested if you'd care to expand on your objections.

Re: Teen Titans (TV) E80, I know you've seen this thread before, but perhaps you just lost track of it. Anyway, it sounds like this is just what you're looking for: http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=38485

Re: What would Dr. Destroyer *really* do? Looking at the history of Dr. Destroyer's actions, both in his current and past incarnations, a clear pattern emerges. Satellite-based global mind control; wiping out 90% of the human population at once; invading the United States from a mobile artificial island; bombarding the US with asteroids... whatever scheme Destroyer comes up with, it's going to be big, loud, technologically sophisticated, and designed to achieve his ends at a single stroke. The Doctor is capable of great subtlety, guile and patience when setting up a long-term plan, but the climax of the plan will be direct and grandiose, drawing the attention of the whole world to the genius, irresistable power, and sheer magnificent supremacy of Dr. Destroyer.

Re: Is it time for people to stop making new RPG systems? Hmm... a setting book without any game stats is rather like a novel. Or an encyclopedia. Ultimately it's the ability to frame a setting within some kind of game mechanic that sets it apart from those other media. Other media are a tremendous source of ideas and inspiration for games, which is probably why so many companies license those properties to be able to do just that. If all we really wanted was the source material, which we would supply with our own game stats, there'd be no need for new games. Certainly there are plenty of gamers willling and able to do that - lots of them post to these boards, in fact. Yet there are many others who want the whole package, setting plus stats that they can use in a game. I would have to be convinced that there were enough of the first kind around to make it profitable. I can also understand the preference of some game designers, when developing a unique new setting, to want to design rules for it that they feel are especially tailored to it. Mind you, there are plenty of game systems around that one could adapt to your setting, and maybe that is a more marketable approach than creating a brand new one. OTOH there are issues of licensing a system, both legal and economic, that need to be dealt with. (Things like D20's OGL were one other avenue, but the success of that venture has been mixed.) I do remember one original, richly detailed setting that came out at first with no game attached to it at all - Talislanta, in the original Chronicles of Talislanta sourcebook. Of course a couple of years later, they'd written a new game for it.

Re: Eating your lunch... For what it's worth: I thought that stan da ork's "filth" opinion was unnecessarily derogatory. But that's very much the exception around here, generally and for him in particular. I thought that MitchellS's reaction to it was unnecessarily harsh. But that's very much the exception around here, generally and for him in particular. I have seen fairly extreme reactions posted on these forums about some games, including HERO itself. But that's very much the exception around here, particularly in contrast to some other gaming forums that I visit, such as RPGnet. I remember a few years back when a newcomer to HERO came onto the boards with the fervor of a new convert, praising HERO while contrasting it with D20 in pretty negative terms. A series of responding posters chided him (pretty calmly overall IMO) for running down another game and the people who played it, to the point where he protested that he was being persecuted for loving HERO. That's something I personally have yet to see on another gaming forum. (I could dig up the specific thread if anyone needs to see it.) I've found the HERO online community to be generally calm, reasonable and open to dissenting opinions, as far as such communities go. There are certainly exceptions, but they're a long, long way from being the rule. I'm afraid I don't really see the benefit in generalizing about any of these communities based on a few aberrant examples.

Re: Giant Robot RPG via Dark Champions BTW if you'd like to see examples of various mecha built according to standard Fifth Edition rules, as well as suggestions for how to build them, may I suggest following the link in my signature, below, and checking the listings for Battletech and Robotech? Tons of interesting and useful stuff there.

Re: Giant Robot RPG via Dark Champions It's actually a pretty nice mecha game, with rules tailored to the conventions of the genre, and the PDF is cheap for what you get. It does have some significant differences from Fifth Edition HERO, though. OTOH one of our board colleagues, Chris Goodwin, has posted pretty detailed notes on how to blend Robot Warriors with 5ER to create a pretty kick@$$ giant-robo game. You can view Chris's notes on his website, here.

Re: Combo too much? Whether or not you intended to, what you're doing by instituting these rules is bringing your martial-arts campaign more in line with superheroic conventions. IMHO this sort of thing is for when you want your martial artists - or whatever other characters you're using - to be able to cause devastation to the environment for relatively low cost. I've used rule variants like these to fine-tune my own supers campaigns to get the level of devastation that I'm comfortable with. It sounds as though you like the idea of enhancing your martial artists in this way, but just not the magnitude of the power that it gives them. Assuming that's the case, here are a few suggestions for adjusting the situation based on my own experiences: Lower the increased damage from Martial Artist attacks from 2x to 1 1/2x, like the option for Vulnerabilities; Set a minimum level of damage for this increased damage effect, i.e. an attack that does less than Xd6 affects a target normally; Have the extra damage apply only to living targets, or only to inanimate objects, whichever you're more concerned about the character affecting; For living targets, consider substituting the Critical Hits optional rule from Ultimate Martial Artist p. 156. Normal people may still suffer increased damage, but it's not a sure thing especially if they actively try to avoid being hit; Define some mystical or scientific "super materials" that are not affected by the characters' increased damage capability, and make sure that they're used against your characters (although not very often - too frustrating); Consider using the old Self-Inflicted Damage optional rule. This was detailed in the original (pre-Fourth Edition) Golden Age of Champions. If a character strikes an object which has Resistant Defenses (including living characters), and the Body damage total he rolls exceeds the total of the object's Resistant Defense, he affects the target normally. However, if the attacker doesn't exceed the target's Resistant Defense, the attacker himself suffers damage (minus his own Defense) as if he had performed a Move-Through on the target. If you're generous the attacker takes half damage; if you want the attacker to really suffer for his failure, he takes full damage. If you're using Hit Locations, the attacker can take the damage for the attack modified by the Hit Location of the body part he used to strike with. This rule doesn't affect a character's damage-dealing capacity, but will make him more cautious in using it full-out. I hope all that is of some use.

Re: Spell Law? Other than this thread and Hierax's website which he linked to above, these are all the Rolemaster conversions I've come across so far: Some general Rolemaster conversion notes, especially for classes of spells: http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=34470 [starting at post #8] Converted Rolemaster "Scar Unbinding" spells, in both Hero Designer Prefab and HTML format: http://homepage.mac.com/badger3k/BadgerHero/4/4.html [under the appropriately-named links]

Re: Ultimate Martial Artist BACK for an Encore You mean he left them with Mork?

Re: Eating your lunch... I admit that the Mutants and Masterminds line includes some very nice-looking books. I also admit that I've been somewhat disappointed in the production quality of certain HERO books recently, notably in the artwork. I don't expect Hero Games to pay for glitzy color art like in some M&M books, but a return to the standards of HG's first couple of years would be welcome, and might draw the interest of non-hardcore HEROphiles. All that said, I've mostly been very happy with the content and direction of my Champions books. OTOH I'm glad that there's another quality supers game out there that caters to people with different preferences and expectations than Champions and HERO covers. That sort of product helps generate interest in the genre in general, which IMHO is good for the hobby overall. As Steve Long is fond of saying, "A rising tide floats all boats."

Re: Super Agents? Shelley Chrystal Mactyre (author of the PRIMUS sourcebook) has participated in two extended superagents-type campaigns for Champions, which she has turned into pretty cool mini-sourcebooks on her website: Chessmen, patterned after the "Checkmate" organization from DC Comics; and Armitage Investigations, a private paranormal investigation agency. Michael Surbrook has done the same thing for his campaign setting, The Phenomena Department, revolving around an agency dedicated to combatting supernatural menaces. Very nice stuff.

Re: First time Hero buyer Hey, Naked Mole Rat, I hope you don't feel personally responsible for this. This sort of debate happens all the time around here. It seems to be endemic to HERO gamers. IMHO it's part of the fun of hanging around here. Even if you don't participate you can just sit back and watch the train wreck.

Re: Superheroic Weapons of Legend You are aware of Michael Surbrook's repertoire, right? http://surbrook.devermore.net/herosource/enchantedweapons.html I know some of those entries have Independent, but surely it wouldn't be that hard to leave them out.

Re: Multiple charges Ah, I get it now. Sorry, Ladikn, I didn't understand your question. The chart with the values of those Limitations is still in the original online rules FAQ here on the website, from before much of the FAQ was incorporated into 5ER. Just go here, http://www.herogames.com/SupportFAQs/rules/POWER%20FRAMEWORKS.htm , and scroll down to the Multipowers section. The chart is a few entries further down. BTW the old rules FAQ contains a great deal of the material that's since gone into 5ER, although it's far less organized. Still, I don't have 5ER either, and I generally do okay with my good ol' FREd and the FAQ. Those FAQ are available both online and in free PDF. In case you haven't found it yet, here's where you can find links to both the current (Revised) FAQ and the old FAQ: http://www.herogames.com/SupportFAQs/supportfaqsherogames.htm Also, since most of what's in 5ER was originally in FREd, it may help you when Steve Long gives a 5ER page reference to know what the analogous page in the original 5E rulebook was. One of our boardmates, zornwil, generously posted the correspondences between 5E and 5ER page numbering, here: http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=26915

Re: First time Hero buyer Let me join the chorus of Welcomes, Naked Mole Rat. (I hope wherever you're posting from, it's warm.) The Strength Debate is ongoing around here. Just to throw another opinion into the mix, a lot of HEROphiles (myself included) feel that at this price Strength is competitive with Energy Blast and the like for superheroic games, where you want to be able to build superstrong characters as inexpensively as other types. In that genre the various Power Frameworks tend to get used more often, and those plus the Ranged capacity of Powers balance better with Strength. I'm also one of those that Thia Halmades mentions who double the cost of Strength in heroic-level games. IMHO the recommended increased Endurance usage for Strength in those games justifies doing that. But you will indeed find numerous dissenting opinions about all the above factors. Be aware that if you're so inclined you can probably keep this discussion going a long, long time.

Re: "Berserker" character There's a Power construct like this in The Ultimate Brick, "Rage Enhanced Strength" - essentially the Hulk's "madder he gets, stronger he gets" ability. Basically it's a Continuous Aid to Strength, Triggered when the character becomes Enraged. Darren Watts used this construct for his "official" Hulk writeup in Game Trade Magazine when that periodical was commemorating the Hulk movie. That issue of GT had a feature statting the Hulk in several RPG systems. They even put the feature on their website as a free PDF. Although the PDF is no longer there, one of our board colleagues, John M. Hammer, has generously hosted it on his personal website, here. If you were to base your writeup on this one, I'd just use Variable Effect for Aid to cover all the Characteristics and Powers that you want to be increased simultaneously. Succor could be used in a similar way, if you prefer that.

Re: Everyman progress? No, it's actually a compendium of writeups for diverse and interesting "normal" people to use as NPCs in a Champions campaign. They can be DNPCs with different backgrounds; sources of support, information or help for PCs, possibly as Contacts or Favors; nonsuperpowered but still influential obstacles to PC actions, like wealthy businessmen, lawyers and politicians; or people with plot hooks to draw the PCs into, or just intriguing encounters in the course of their adventures. There was a book like this for Fourth Edition called Normals Unbound, which many of us considered one of the most useful books in the line.

Re: Relics of the Arch Mage Wards of the Sanctum: Four talismans that, when placed at the foundation of a building at the four cardinal compass points, erect a magical ward around that building. No mystical being can pass through the ward without the Archmage's permission (unless the being is powerful enough to shatter it), and the ward blocks any type of magical scrying into the building. I'm thinking a powerful Force Wall large enough to englobe a moderate-sized residence, Opaque to a custom "Mystic Sense Group," Fully Invisible so that it's not obvious to the Archmage's enemies, with Personal Immunity so that the Archmage isn't impeded by it. I'd probably make the talismans Inobvious Accessible Foci, Immobile, and add a custom Limitation, "Only blocks supernatural beings/forces."

Re: Multiple charges You'll find the specifics about applying Charges to Multipowers on FREd pp. 207-208. If that doesn't answer your questions, please post a followup.

Re: Superheroic Weapons of Legend How about the adamantine sickle of Cronus, leader of the Titans? I don't think it was ever definitively stated in myth that it passed into Tarterus when Zeus imprisoned Cronus there. Cronus is also often identified as an agricultural god (especially when associated with the Roman Saturn), so it wouldn't be unreasonable that it might grant some powers over plants, as well. Sickle of Cronus: Multipower, 75 point reserve (75 Active Points), all slots OAF Unbreakable (-1) 4u Adamantine Blade: 2D6 HKA (4D6 with STR), Armor Piercing, Penetrating, Reduced Endurance (0 END) 3u Plant Mastery I: Telekinesis 50 STR, Only where plants can grow (-1/2) 3u Plant Mastery II: Entangle 8D6, DEF 7, Only where plants can grow (-1/2) Total Cost: 47 points Other plant-related Multipower slots could easily be added.