DreadDomain

Thanks Assault. If Beta is only for active playtesters, it's surely too late now as Ron is supposed to turn his manuscript.

And unfortunately not all backers have access to the beta so we are left in the dark.

Straight off the bat, I believe 6E is the best edition of HERO mechanically. I would not say it is the best it could be, but it is better than the previous editions. Most of the problems I have with 6E are not mechanical but rather with presentation. Presentation Again, I will declare it from the start, I love the two big-blue 6E books. I find them beautiful and neat and as reference manuals, they are golden. When it comes to look at general rules though, Champions Complete or HERO Basic are much more convenient. Behold hindsight 20/20, with better production value (and completeness for Basic) they could have been the equivalent of HERO Rulebook and Champions BBB for 4E. I would have seen them both on glossy paper, full color and using the layout template 6E1 and 6E2 use while the two big books could have been softcover and black and white (what they now are in POD I suppose). But my main presentation problems in 6E are on the character sheets. The wall of characteristics is horrible and with just a better layout could be easily avoided. Categorizing them like it was previously suggested in this thread would go a long way to make them look less intimidating. At the very least, grouping them slightly differently (example below but somewhat messed up) would definitely help. CHARACTERISTICS STR 40 17- STR Dice 9d6, Lift 6.4tons DEX 36 16- CON 19 13- INT 18 13- Perception Roll 13- EGO 15 12- PRE 13 12- PRE Attack 2½d6 OCV 10 OMCV 3 DCV 12 DMCV 3 SPD 5 Phases 3, 5, 8, 10, 12 PD 12 Total 12 PD/0 rPD ED 9 Total 9 ED/0 rED REC 10 END 40 STUN 40 BODY 12 MOVEMENT Running 12m (24m) Swimming 4m (8m) Leaping 30m (60m) Swinging 40m (80m) Another issue brought up previously is how some powers were deconstructed and need now to be built from other powers. While I have no problem with the approach, I would have preferred if they would have defined and used a simplified nomenclature on published character sheets (basically what they did with Talents). A few basic write-ups would have benefited from it (Force Field, Instant Change, Transfer, Super-Running (you know, the one not built with Running but with Flight or Teleport), etc…). In short, I would have liked if they looked for a way to declutter the character sheets and make them look more appealing, more fun (and yes, I would be totally happy not seeing Real Cost per line item and the advantages and limitations +/- values). Legacy Another aspect that clearly irks long time HERO fans is the loss of some legacy components. The two examples constantly referred to are Comeliness and Figured Characteristics. In both cases, I was initially against their departure but after the fact, my opinion is that the game is better without them. Comeliness was not doing much mechanically and every attempt I have seen to give it a purpose were heroic efforts for sure but ultimately unconvincing. I much, much prefer Striking Appearance as a mechanic. That being said, I agree that adding Comeliness in a sidebar as a potential new Characteristic would have been a must. It is clearly important to some of us and we should respect that. Figured Characteristics were a tougher nut to crack. The challenge is to balance a linear point cost progression per characteristics with what is fundamentally a breakpoint progression of abilities. Some benefits of characteristics increase every +1 but others only in +2, +3 or +5 increments. GURPS can balance its Attributes with its Secondary Characteristics by the simple fact that most benefits progress on a +1 for +1 basis. ST is equally divided in three components, Lifting, Striking and Hit Points, +1 in ST means +1 in all three components and the sum cost of the three components equals the total cost for ST. Trying to balance that in HERO was next to impossible and at best could have been better approximated than in previous editions (this is what I was hoping for while 6E was being developed). In the end, figured characteristics were not figured anymore and it suddenly became much easier to build any concept desired without worrying with point efficiency. But something was lost. Call it guidance or verisimilitude but the fact remains that a deeply entrenched paradigm, the relation between Characteristics and Figured was erased. Again, a few solutions were possible. First, a sidebar re-introducing Figured Characteristics with better balanced costs could have been added. Second, and even easier, a sidebar could have introduced “suggested values” for Secondary Characteristics based on Characteristics (example below). Base Cost Suggested Value OCV 3 5 DEX/3 DCV 3 5 DEX/3 OMCV 3 3 EGO/3 DMCV 3 3 EGO/3 PD 2 1 STR/5 ED 2 1 CON/5 SPD 2 10 1+DEX/10 REC 4 1 (STR+CON)/5 END 20 0.2 CONx2 BODY 10 1 10+STR/5 STUN 20 0.5 BODY+STR+CON)/2 From a cost perspective, nothing would change. You would still buy STR at 1 pts for +1 and no Secondary Characteristics would be automatically recalculated. If you wanted to bring your Secondary Characteristics in line with the suggested values, you would still need to buy them up. Suggested Values would simply give an indication of how the Characteristics could influence the Secondary Characteristics and the player would still have full power to buy them up their desired values based on their concept, may it be the suggested value or something else. Unless of course a campaign strictly enforces them. I haven’t touched on mechanics at all in this post. Hopefully will have time to do so later.

Massey gives the example that Damage shield worsen from 4th (Damage Shield +1/2) to 5E (Damage Shield +1/2, Continuous +1) and I agree. However, because we are talking 6E, Damage Shield actually improved and became Damage Shield +1/4, Constant +1/2, No Range -1/2. Much better than 5E and actually cheaper than 4E (in Real Points but not in Active Points.

Oh, I know why it's based on 3E. I still don't see how it makes good business sense. That it originates from 3E or 6E might be a moot point depending on how far it departs from the source material and if it becomes its own thing.

Personally I still struggle to understand why it makes good business sense to build Champions Now on 3E. Isn't 6E supposed to be the Ultimate Toolkit to build a game, your game, with the feel you want, with that "thing" you want? Wouldn't Champions Now have been a great opportunity to demonstrate just that? I am speaking a bit in a vacuum here since I haven't seen the Beta document. Any idea where I can access it?

Ah, good thing it's not what it is at all then ?

I love GURPS, it's one of the best system out there... but this comment is quite funny nonetheless ?

Fantastic covers! Personally I would get rid of the black frame for Cyber HERO but your cover for Horror HERO is brilliant. Shame that I do not have access to either Horror HERO, Western HERO (nor GURPS Old West). I have hardcopies in boxes in Canada but do not have PDF (I believe they do not exist yet).

It is actually a much easier question for me. I much, much, much prefer HERO 4E 5E, 5Er or 6E over 1E, 2E or 3E.

That's good because based on the latest Kickstarter comment, it'x the one we will get in the book!

In your opinion bro and your totally entitled to it. I personally much much prefer the latest edition of Golden Age over the former editions. The cover is okay-ish and I was bummed we didn't get to the full colour stretch goal but I thought the writing was excellent and engaging and really gave me a sense that I wanted to play in Golden Age game again. Now did it have the same level of information on WWII compared to GURPS WWII? Of course not but they have a totally different focus. Sure they share a time period and a significant historical event but as their titles suggest, one focuses on describing the historical event itself and the other covers superheroes in the 30s and 40s. Both are great but for totally different reasons. That being said, it prompts me to reopen the previous edition of Golden Age just for fun.

You are correct. I am not saying the 6E way is wrong. I just prefer the aesthetic of the previous build. I prefer: Transfer: Transfer END 4d6 (60 Active Points) Real Cost: 60 CP over Transfer: Drain END 4d6 (40 Active Points); Unified Power (-.) (total cost: 32 CP) plus Aid END 4d6 (standard effect: same roll as Drain dice), Trigger (when character uses Drain, activating Trigger takes no time, Trigger immediately automatically resets; +1) (48 Active Points); Only Aid Self (-1), Linked (-.), Unified Power (-.). Real Cost: 51 CP and Instant Change: Switch one set of clothes for another. Real Cost: 3 CP over Instant Change: Cosmetic Transform 1d6 (standard effect: switch one set of clothes for another), Trigger (changing clothing is a Zero Phase Action, Trigger automatically resets; +.) (5 Active Points); Limited Target (the character’s current clothing; -.). Real Cost: 3 CP

Ok, hopefully I didn't mess thing up too much. I have attempted to recreate Spider-Man using 3E. I have based him on the 6E version that I have instead of starting from scratch. Just a few observations: 1) In practice 6E secondary attributes are easier/more flexible but I still very much like the idea of figured characteristics. 2) I absolutely do not miss the movement in Hexes/Inches. Meters make so much more sense and I hope against hope that Champions Now would use them (but I know it won't) 3) I generally find the Power construction system much better in 6E (or 5E/5ER) but I still regret some of the decisions made. I would have kept Gliding, Transfer, Instant Change, etc instead of incorporating them with other powers. 4) I much prefer the skills in later editions All in all, Champions 3E is an impressive game (especially for its time) but I would not go back to it (well, never really was with it since I started with 4E) as I do not feel it is as flexible or coherent as later editions. To be fair, my ideal edition of Champions would be somewhere 5ER and 6E with a good dash of 4E with the production value of Champions 6E in a format akin to Champions 4E or Champions Complete.

Fair enough. I myself only just discovered (a few posts above) there was a beta document. I suppose if I knew where to find that document, it would answer some of my questions.

Ok, I am obviously not paying attention to CNow. Was there a link sent for a Beta version?

Even if I have supported the KS, I haven't followed the development progress. Can you elaborate on the 3 points above?

I would agree. Although there are clear changes from 1E to 6E, the game is fundamentally the same. In a sense, aside from the few additions here and there (which are perhaps more obvious in the modifiers) later editions, rebalanced, codified and gave more guidance and examples. A potential drawback of the evolution is that it gave some people the impression that characters had to be more complex and have more stuff on the sheet.

I would also suggest that the "complexity" of later editions is provided for gamers to use... or ignore. While we often hear about HERO's complexity, the fact is that characters can be built in a very convoluted way or in a very simple fashion and most of the time the system, though character points, will self balance. It is no more difficult to build a very simple character in HERO 6E than it is in earlier editions but later editions also provide for complex solutions. The power to make these design decisions rests with the players themselves and they choose the level of complexity their character will have. In any case these are cool characters Pariah. Keep them coming!

Aldo has provided an updated sheet (which looks much better in my opinion). He said he would try to reduce the gap between the two columns. Character Sheet take 3 It looks like a somewhat modernized take of the 3 columns sheet.

To be fair you could replace DC with Marvel in this sentence and it would still be true. I am no Aquaman expert but I believe his strength level has been in the 50 to 60 range (in HERO terms) for decades even though it is not really his schtick. Based on the latest comics I suppose it would be 60 at least maybe more. If I recall correctly, a few years ago he was given STR 10 in the DC RPG which I believe equates to STR 60 in HERO. Decades earlier he only had STR 8 (STR 40 in HERO) in DC Heroes. As usual his feats in comics (and now movies) do not necessarily match these numbers.

Hey, I missed that here! For everyone there is a discussion on rpg.net and Aldo has posted an updated layout (which is pretty good in my opinion). Freedom Star take 2

Then are the floorplans in the core book is what you were looking for?

There is at least one version in Champions 4E and another in Champions the New Millenium.

Any recent news on Champions Now. I believe the last updated playtest document was a while ago already.