Scott Baker

I can't believe anyone would pay this, but it's listed used on Amazon (3rd party seller of course) for $450!

And Chris beat me to the reply! The game I'm in right now is moving from 5E to 6E at the end of the current story arc. And when I say 6E, I mean Champions Complete. It's seems to be a great book for the group as most of them are not long-time Herophiles, and the size of the full 6E volumes 1 & 2 was a bit daunting for them.

Tasha is referencing that the 5E (print & PDF) book The Ultimate Skill is (essentially) the same as the 6E (PDF) book Hero System Skills. They have matched the new book to the old such that all page references for TUS still apply to HSS. As with all of the additional books, you can play Hero without one of the Skill books. However, if you want additional information and/or optional rules for skills, these are the books that cover that in great detail.

I like to roll my own as well. However, I agree with the sentiments of borrowing ideas. And sometimes I just like to see something complete about a setting I like.

Defs refers to PD & ED. As noted in the 2nd paragraph, reference the size templates on 6E1 443. It does not give you defenses you don't have (RAW). Prior to 6E, Growth didn't add to defenses, so I never really noticed it before. But the size templates in 5E do include additional defenses as appropriate (due to figured characteristics). 6E balances characters who are always large against characters to use Growth to get larger temporarily.

Yes. That started with 1E.

Life is too short. If 4th edition was perfect for you, go find a copy and forget about the current version(s). This should be fun, not torture.

Based on this thread this is the exact sort of thing I had been mulling over. I've never played FATE, so had no idea how that system worked.

I was going to say the same thing and see you beat me to it. While they may not have posted again, they have logged on.

You wonder why some of the powers were added (e.g., Growth, Density Increase, and Shrinking). Your examples date back to 1E. In those days, there was nowhere near the granularity or number of choices that we are familiar with today. The powers in the game reflect the comic book powers of the time. Reasoning from special effects wasn't called out, and it seems obvious, in hindsight, how Steve and George probably started with a slightly different concept, and then evolved it. In those early day you could not build the 3 powers you listed, as they were defined in 1E. There was no way to add climbing, no KB resistance, or increased KB. There certainly wasn't anything such as a Naked Advantage in those early rules. And with the original rules, it was hideously expensive to purchase any of these as Always On to represent a character who was always bigger, smaller, or denser. Which led to the dichotomy in 5E/6E around the size/density templates (for characters who are just that way), and the powers for characters that turn it on and off. If I remember correctly, value-wise (ignoring things that we couldn't actually buy, and the actual effect of being larger, smaller, or denser): Shrinking wasn't worth the points you paid Growth came in about even Density Increase was worth more than you paid 2E followed closely on the heels of 1E, so there wasn't any significant change in the core of the system. After that I suspect the momentum of what had gone before carried things along. Just a perspective on how this started. As always, Hero is a toolbox, and you can do what you want with it. However, it wasn't always the garage mechanic's toolbox that it is today. Some of your analysis only works because of the growth over the last 33 years. 1981 was a simpler time indeed.

Sounds like something out of Lords of Creation (Avalon Hill) which specifically had characters reach a power level where they could create their own pocket universes (and thus be GMs for games as well). Which was influenced by many sources, including Zelazny's Amber and probably Farmer's World of Tiers as well. As for building it...EDM, skill roll, and I'd probably throw in relevant science/knowledge skills for specific effects.

Given the parameters, I think this seems entirely reasonable.

As I noted above, I think this is an interesting idea and am reading all of the follow-up. I'm totally open to some new ideas. However, I have to say that I find this particular example points out, if following the rules as written, something the GM is ultimately responsible for negotiating. A limitation that doesn't limit isn't worth any points. A complication that doesn't complicate isn't worth any points. When the characters are created, the GM should know what these "negatives" are and plan accordingly. Given a change in the focus of the campaign, there should be some discussion with the player(s). Perhaps Cripple Man finally has to buy off that fear (with an appropriate story--could be before or after they leave Hollowland--but make him pay the points). If Cripple Man's powers don't work in some circumstance, plan for how that will come about. The players are told to expect these things to occur. If the GM does not follow up, you can't blame the system for that. Don't get me wrong, I'm not disagreeing with your concept. And Hero is a toolbox, so change it up as you will. In fact, I've experienced some of the frustration you are talking about, specifically with limitations, rather than complications. My character had powers with no limitations. Other characters had limitations. I certainly felt the effects when those limitations had little or no effect on an on-going basis. But, this is not a problem with the system, but with how we used it. Now, back to the discussion at hand.

Interesting. I haven't followed any other thread where I remember this coming up. I look forward to hearing more.

First, welcome to the forums. Second, I'm going to agree with everyone that replied before me. I've been playing Champions since the 1st edition hit the market. Back then it seemed rather radical, coming from D&D, Traveller, and the other games of that era. Some people didn't like that sort of a change, so they had a negative opinion of the system. You have the advantage that you seem to have embraced Hero system in the past. My advice (for what it's worth): Be glad that the folks here are so friendly and helpful. Take another look at the current edition and try not to let 4th edition knowledge cloud your judgement when looking at how it works now. Ask (positive) questions here on the forums. And if you really can't get over the system having changed in the last 15-20 years, I know there are copies of 4th edition running around out there for sale. I hope you'll join us in our ongoing discussions of the system we love here. And if you look around, you may even see some discussions about the older versions....

"It's RPG.net. that's how they roll over there." - Lather. Rinse. Repeat. It's a shame things seem to go that way.

If the base rules in the core book(s) satisfy you, then I wouldn't say rush out and buy it. If you want expanded detail about the various aspects of bases, and don't want to come up with it all on your own, I think it is a valuable reference. Like the other Ultimate books (for their areas), it expands on the detail and options around the various characteristics of bases and their equipment. It also includes chapters on bases in different genres (fantasy, modern, sci-fi) and provides a number of sample bases for each. There's also Kingdom rules that take bases to the next level (kingdoms, nations, etc.) This link is for the product announcement, including the back cover text: http://www.herogames.com/forums/topic/71731-the-ultimate-base/?hl=%2Bultimate+%2Bbase I bought it and found it to be an interesting read. I like seeing how others have done things. It helps spark my own creativity.

Yeah. Their tune has changed since the Kickstarter and go-live. Back then it was just a matter of time. Meh.

Cannot Be Stunned - 6E1 174

Too soon. RIP

I had started after doing some conversions of old PCs and NPCs, but really didn't get very far at all. I haven't run into any character I wanted to use that hasn't already been updated in various source books for my use or modification. Plus, RL seems to have gotten in the way of all my fun lately.

I agree with Spence about it being an art to to convert the old stuff.

Since the 6E books are available electronically, have you considered asking Jason if it would be possible to just get copies of the cover images? (By the way, how small is too small?)

I'm not sure what you mean by building skills. Hero already has a list of skills, many of which cover lots of areas (such as languages and science). If there is something specific that you think is missing, there are the Knowledge skills to cover most of those areas (knowledge of people, places, things). Also, don't go overboard making people buy skills for every possible thing they could know. If someone wants their character to know "Yodels of the Swiss Alps" as part of their background, and that knowledge won't give them any significant advantage, then they really don't need to pay for it.

I like your ideas. My chief thought is that you need to understand 2 areas: 1) the state of the world--events, etc.--over the intervening time; 2) evaluate the characters to see how active they may have been--disads/complications and their previous back story will highly influence this.Then I would try to use these, along with previous XP awards to determine how much to award for the intervening time. You already mentioned that the overall threat level was lower--lower the XP award level. As for characters, some may be more active--if someone doesn't age, for example, they don't have a common reason that people slow down over time--dont adjust the XP award level. Others may "retire" due to age--lower the XP award level. I hope that give you some idea of what I am thinking. I (relatively) recently had to work out something similar for a character of mine. I've been playing him off-and-on for 27 years (both real and game time). That's multiple campaigns in the same world. In my particular case, for this latest campaign, where he's effectively an NPC, I took our current XP awards to determine the base rate, then looked at activity, etc. There were some obvious updates to his disads, he has points in bases that he didn't have before, and has a whole slew of new skills (culled from my notes of what he was going to be working on from the last time I was actively working with the character). In short, I think you have the right idea already.Hopefully something I wrote makes sense to you or helps clarify your thinking.