I wonder how many have stopped using Champions/HERO for similar reasons to this?

[Hugh Neilson]

Prior to 4e, each game stood alone - Champions, Espionage, Fantasy Hero, Danger International, Justice INC., Robot Warriors et al were separately published, used the same core rules with variations for the specific genre, etc. Maybe we're moving back to the "separate games using the Hero Engine" model. PS238 had the rules. So does Monster Hunter International, so that makes four sets...

[Scott Baker]

LUcha Libre had the rules as well. So that brings us to 5.

[bubba smith]

true but that was 5ed

[Scott Baker]

true but that was 5ed

So is PS238. Which is why I mentioned LL.

[Ninja-Bear]

I remember a couple of years ago that someone new to the boards got into an argument over rules. The problem was the OP was asking questions from Hero Basic and the people on the boards responded from 61&62.

 

I felt then simalur to Hugh that they should have had a seperate thread for hero basic.

[bubba smith]

consider it done

[Jason S.Walters]

A few thoughts from the management. Some of you will like them, some of you will not. But they're meant to explain things a bit, not offend anyone or be confrontational. They're just the facts on the ground as I know them to be.

 

1) Champions Complete *replaces* Champions: The SuperRoleplaying Game, 6E1, and 6E2 - and for a fraction of the cost. It's sold reasonably well too. Which matters.

 

2) The book Champions: The SuperRoleplaying Game has been out of print for years now, and will never come back into print. Nor will the 6E1 or 6e2 (at least in their pre-existing form). If someone, somehow has found one on a game store shelf and gotten confused, then.... [helpless Gaelic shrug]. What can I say?

 

3) The whole core book/genre book/setting book/equipment book model of selling roleplaying game books worked okay in the 80s, 90s, and maybe the early part of this century. But as far as I can tell it doesn't work now. It's a big money looser, and those companies who are doing it are either taking a hit, or are Paizo Publishing. OTOH books with stand alone rules in them seem to be what the majority of roleplaying game book consumers - especially new ones - want. So that's what we're going to do with Hero right now.

 

For those of you who disagree... well, there's something like 100+ 5th and 6th Edition books out there based on the previous model. It's not like releasing Champions Complete or Fantasy Hero Complete magically invalidates them. So collect away! Happy to sell you some. Happy to have people playing whatever version of the Hero System they like. Have fun!

 

4) "If the buyer feels misled, he's probably not coming back to buy more products." Since we were printing books that nobody was buying previous to releasing Champions Complete and Monster Hunter International - both of which have been financially successful, I might add - they weren't coming back to buy more products anyhow. And nobody is being misled when you explicitly tell them they are buying a stand-alone game.

 

5) I set two simple goals for myself when I found myself uncomfortably seated upon the Iron Throne of Hero Games. One, I would never help create a product that lost money. So far, so good. Two, I would encourage new people to play the Hero system. The stand-alone books are a big part of that. As far as I can tell: also so far, so good.

 

6) "Maybe we're moving back to the "separate games using the Hero Engine" model." We are. Because consumers seem to want it, and because it exposes new people to the system who might otherwise never try it. With that said, I'm thinking about next year's book or books being specific supplements for Champions Complete. Because they're projects I believe will self-fund on Kickstarter, that most of you will like, and that will sell enough after the fact to at least "do no harm."

 

7) "With Fantasy Hero Complete, we will now have three versions of the rules, with three different authors." If you include the 5th Edition Lucha Libre Hero and the upcoming Hero-derived Narosia: Sea of Tears, you could say seven including Darren Watts, Shane Harsh, and myself. And frankly... so what? Seeing the Hero System change and grow through the eyes of various fans and authors over the years is a good and healthy thing. That's why we've made our third party license so incredibly easy to use. Hero Games isn't just some stuff on my computer, a bank account, and a 1000-square-foot warehouse filled with books. It's a widespread idea that belongs most of all to you fans.

 

Thus I have spoken, and shall now return to my mountain of digital paperwork.

 

Jason Walters, CEO Hero Games

[Balabanto]

By the way, Imaginary Friends was designed with Champions Complete, as will everything I do until there is something newer.

[esampson]

A few thoughts from the management. Some of you will like them, some of you will not. But they're meant to explain things a bit, not offend anyone or be confrontational. They're just the facts on the ground as I know them to be.

 

1) Champions Complete *replaces* Champions: The SuperRoleplaying Game, 6E1, and 6E2 - and for a fraction of the cost. It's sold reasonably well too. Which matters.

 

2) The book Champions: The SuperRoleplaying Game has been out of print for years now, and will never come back into print. Nor will the 6E1 or 6e2 (at least in their pre-existing form). If someone, somehow has found one on a game store shelf and gotten confused, then.... [helpless Gaelic shrug]. What can I say?

 

. . .

 

Jason Walters, CEO Hero Games

 

That's great, and honestly, I think it is a good direction to go. I personally feel like the 'best' design would be for a core rule system to be developed with each individual genre book built off of those core rules (such as how Champions Complete and Fantasy Hero Complete are being done). The 'core rule system' is referenced by anyone designing a new genre book and compatibility is encouraged (if not mandated). This results in stand alone genre books that are compatible with one another rather than the sort of hodge-podge that existed back with Danger International, Fantasy Hero, and Champions 3e.

 

A genre book like Champions Complete might not include hit locations, bleeding, incapacitating, and other various optional rules that are usually not appropriate to the setting resulting in a book that is more streamlined for people first getting into the system. The 'core rules' could be published, much like the 6e books are published, to provide greater depth to people who want to dig into the system and tweak their games, although that is hardly a requirement (either for people to purchase or for Hero Games to sell).

 

The problem is that right now things such as Steve Long's earlier statement makes it unclear as to exactly what the 'official' rules are. I had been thinking that Champions Complete was meant to supercede the big blue books but then when I heard that I was uncertain until your post. Adding in the fact that Hero Designer needs to be upgraded to CC and people coming in might wonder if they've bought the wrong book. That sort of lack of clarity is not a good thing in the long run.

[Christopher R Taylor]

I think the rule book model can work but its got to be, you know, smaller and cheaper.  If your rules cost as much as a college textbook and functions well as a chock to stop aircraft, yeah you're going to be challenged to sell the monster.  But if you slim it down and make it cost a bit less, well that's going to be a bit more attractive to buyers, I'd think.

[Scott Baker]

Thanks Jason.

[Hugh Neilson]

TL; DR  Basically, I see nothing wrong with the new model, and the sales comments indicate there's a lot right with it.  Hero has to produce what the market will buy, and they continue to produce a top quality product.

 

What I do see is potential confusion because the online store descriptions don't reflect the new model, and especially the replacement of some products with newer products (CC Complete in this case), some teething pains with MHI (really the prototype Standalone 6e Game) which might merit some action, and a need for the online support (Rules Question Forum) to be consistent with the current business plan.

 

Jason, thanks for the details.
 

A few thoughts from the management. Some of you will like them, some of you will not. But they're meant to explain things a bit, not offend anyone or be confrontational. They're just the facts on the ground as I know them to be.
 
1) Champions Complete *replaces* Champions: The SuperRoleplaying Game, 6E1, and 6E2 - and for a fraction of the cost. It's sold reasonably well too. Which matters.

It seems pretty clear the market changed, and Hero had to change with it. It's good to hear CC is selling well - the new model seems more in tune with the market. However, I think it is important for Hero to present that message consistently. The Rules Question board response which says "Hero 6e are the rules" directly contradicts Hero's intention that the current rules are Champions Complete. When 6e was published, the Rules Question board made it quite clear that these are the rules now, this is the edition Hero is marketing, and it is the edition the rules questions will support. With CC replacing 6e, I suggest any official Rules Questions board should support CC, not the two volume 6e Core.

As well, some thought should be given to how rules Q's will be addressed when Fantasy Hero Complete is released. I assume those rules don't replace the CC rules, but rather that there will be two standalone games. I'm hopeful the rules will be pretty much the same, with the major difference being tone (Champions will have Supers examples like a Laser Eye Beams, while Fantasy would have a Lightning Bolt Spell example for the same power, but the mechanics could be transported between the two games with no changes), but I'm not sure what Hero's plan is.
 

2) The book Champions: The SuperRoleplaying Game has been out of print for years now, and will never come back into print. Nor will the 6E1 or 6e2 (at least in their pre-existing form). If someone, somehow has found one on a game store shelf and gotten confused, then.... [helpless Gaelic shrug]. What can I say?

There's nothing that can be done with what's printed and released. And those books may be sitting beside Champions II from the 1980's - some stores have a lot of old stock! But when I read the descriptions of Hero 6e Core, Champions: the Supers RPG and Champions Complete in the online store, nothing tells me that CC is the replacement, and more current than either of the 6e Core or Champions Super RPG, nor is a prospective buyer warned that a purchase of Champions Super RPG is buying a lot of material also in CC. Both CC and Super RPG are in the 6th Ed Champions section of the store, so it does not seem unreasonable a purchaser would believe each is a separate and distinct product.

Other than that, I like the CC description - it clearly states it is a standalone supers game, and that is precisely what it is.
 

3) The whole core book/genre book/setting book/equipment book model of selling roleplaying game books worked okay in the 80s, 90s, and maybe the early part of this century. But as far as I can tell it doesn't work now. It's a big money looser, and those companies who are doing it are either taking a hit, or are Paizo Publishing. OTOH books with stand alone rules in them seem to be what the majority of roleplaying game book consumers - especially new ones - want. So that's what we're going to do with Hero right now.
 
For those of you who disagree... well, there's something like 100+ 5th and 6th Edition books out there based on the previous model. It's not like releasing Champions Complete or Fantasy Hero Complete magically invalidates them. So collect away! Happy to sell you some. Happy to have people playing whatever version of the Hero System they like. Have fun!

The market dictates. From what I understand, the initial 6e products were not selling. CC is selling. Business demands producing and marketing things that sell.
 

4) "If the buyer feels misled, he's probably not coming back to buy more products." Since we were printing books that nobody was buying previous to releasing Champions Complete and Monster Hunter International - both of which have been financially successful, I might add - they weren't coming back to buy more products anyhow. And nobody is being misled when you explicitly tell them they are buying a stand-alone game.

The concerns I see relate to MHI using rules in its character write-ups that are not in its rules section. That means to use the write-ups, the buyer needs to purchase another product. That weakens it as a standalone product. I'm not sure how many power write-ups are used in the sample characters and aren't in the rules section - maybe Hero could make a supplemental rules .pdf available for the current edition, and include those rules in any future reprints.

The problem doesn't exist in CC as far as I can tell - it uses the complete Hero rules, so there is nothing in any 6e writeup which doesn't have rules in CC. That seems like the model going forward, so any real issue (at least as I perceive it) is limited to MHI. But there are definitely some disappointed comments on the MHI board from customers brought in to Hero by the MHI brand.

The only issue I would fear with CC is a purchaser coming here, posting a question on the Rules Board and getting a 6e Core Vol 1 page reference, with any reference to the CC rules dismissed as "not being the real rules set".
 

5) I set two simple goals for myself when I found myself uncomfortably seated upon the Iron Throne of Hero Games. One, I would never help create a product that lost money. So far, so good. Two, I would encourage new people to play the Hero system. The stand-alone books are a big part of that. As far as I can tell: also so far, so good.
 
6) "Maybe we're moving back to the "separate games using the Hero Engine" model." We are. Because consumers seem to want it, and because it exposes new people to the system who might otherwise never try it. With that said, I'm thinking about next year's book or books being specific supplements for Champions Complete. Because they're projects I believe will self-fund on Kickstarter, that most of you will like, and that will sell enough after the fact to at least "do no harm."

It's selling. Again, I come back to the web site supporting those separate games, and not having a company-official forum that refuses to acknowledge those standalone rules sets. I don't use Hero Designer, but it should also support those standalones. I think it already does - the mechanics haven't changed, only the verbiage accompanying them - but a HD user would know better.
 

7) "With Fantasy Hero Complete, we will now have three versions of the rules, with three different authors." If you include the 5th Edition Lucha Libre Hero and the upcoming Hero-derived Narosia: Sea of Tears, you could say seven including Darren Watts, Shane Harsh, and myself. And frankly... so what? Seeing the Hero System change and grow through the eyes of various fans and authors over the years is a good and healthy thing. That's why we've made our third party license so incredibly easy to use. Hero Games isn't just some stuff on my computer, a bank account, and a 1000-square-foot warehouse filled with books. It's a widespread idea that belongs most of all to you fans.

We can count all the prior editions (and that's a lot of games back in the 1e - 3e days!), but I don't think anyone reasonably expects Hero to support older editions. Again, I come back to the sole concern that the web site be consistent with the new model - which probably means answering rules questions based on MHI, Champions Complete, Fantasy Hero Complete, 6e Core an Basic (since the .pdf's are still presented as current rules in the online store) and any other version of the rules in a currently marketed Hero product. I don't think Hero can reasonably support 3rd party publishers to the same extent, other than possibly answering rules questions based on Hero-published rules.
 

[Hugh Neilson]

I think the rule book model can work but its got to be, you know, smaller and cheaper.  If your rules cost as much as a college textbook and functions well as a chock to stop aircraft, yeah you're going to be challenged to sell the monster.  But if you slim it down and make it cost a bit less, well that's going to be a bit more attractive to buyers, I'd think.

 

I'm not sure whether you're referring to the old "Core Rules" model or the new "Complete in one book" model. 

 

I think a 240 page "complete in one volume" game looks pretty good sitting beside three volumes of the current edition of Dungeons and Dragons, or the enormous Pathfinder core rulebook (both of which sit beside numerous additional books that the gamers just can't get along without). 

 

As I consider it, one of the biggest concerns raised with the "separate games" model was the need for the buyer to purchase all the rules again for each game.  But that's not hurting other publishers whose games are based on other published rule sets.  The same rules presented from a different genre perspective can be a very different read without any core mechanics changing at all.  The market accepts the game having its complete rules, and I don't see a lot of complaints about buying "the same rules again" by d20 purchasers.  There's no reason Hero should be viewed any differently.  If anything, "this game has familiar mechanics" seems like a selling feature, as it reduces the up front time invested to play this "brand new game".

[Christopher R Taylor]

I'm not sure whether you're referring to the old "Core Rules" model or the new "Complete in one book" model. 

 

I think a 240 page "complete in one volume" game looks pretty good sitting beside three volumes of the current edition of Dungeons and Dragons, or the enormous Pathfinder core rulebook (both of which sit beside numerous additional books that the gamers just can't get along without). 

 

Sorry I wasn't more clear; I was referring to Jason's statement about stand alone rule books not selling well, which was about the 2-volume massive 6th edition rule set.  That didn't sell well because in the heart of a recession, not many had a spare 100+ bucks to blow on a set of RPG rules.

 

I'm not convinced the market changed so much as the spare change gamers had to invest in a new edition and the cost/size of that new edition went in opposite directions.  Plus, looking over the store, it wasn't precisely clear what books were the main rules and to buy; they all looked the same and had pretty similar write ups.

 

I write this not to bash anyone but out of frustration, because I think it hurt my favorite hobby and what I think is the finest game system and set of rules that has ever been created.  The new direction Hero is going is selling well, which is good, and that is helping the Champions brand, which is also very good.

[Steve]

One thing that I feel would help the MHI snafu would be to put out as a free download an errata for the items in write-ups that are missing from the basic rule book. My guess is that it would probably be 2-3 pages at most.

 

My hope is that future books will be more carefully edited.

[Chris Goodwin]

When I run, I will specify what I'm running out of, whether it's CC, FHC, the Encyclopedia Heroica (6E1 + 6E2), 3rd edition, FH 1e, or whatever.  I will make as much accommodation as I can for someone who doesn't have the same books, up to and including translating characters from one edition to another.  As far as 6E is concerned, the 6E1+2 PDFs are still available, and that's good enough for me.  I use them in PDF a lot more than I use the physical books anyway.  If someone says "Hey, I want to use this thing from that book that isn't in the other book..." I'll probably think about it for all of a tenth of a second and probably say "Okay."

 

I rather liked the 3e era with the various standalone games that were mostly compatible, and I didn't really see anything that was completely incompatible to the point of unresolvable conflict.  As far as I was concerned, if we were playing Fantasy Hero the rules in the FH 1e book won out, and we brought plenty in from the other games; same for Danger International, Robot Warriors, &c.  Fantasy Hero 1e was a different game from Justice, Inc., and from Danger International, and from Champions 3e, and from Star Hero 1e, and it seemed right to me that the rules would be different as well.  I liked that when I picked up a new one of them I already knew how to play from the others; 11 + OCV - DCV wasn't different, nor was a Presence Attack, nor was the cost of PD and ED and SPD and STR and DEX and so on and so forth.  

 

5) I set two simple goals for myself when I found myself uncomfortably seated upon the Iron Throne of Hero Games. One, I would never help create a product that lost money. So far, so good. Two, I would encourage new people to play the Hero system. The stand-alone books are a big part of that. As far as I can tell: also so far, so good.

 

I can't think of any better goals to have, and I'm glad that the books are selling.  

[Balabanto]

I agree that the statements can be somewhat misleading. The covers of future superhero products should contain the words "Uses Champions Complete, the latest version of the rules" or something of that sort. This would be a big help. Part of the problem I see in this thread is the following argument.

 

1) "We hate edition wars."

 

2) "x" was my favorite version of the game. This was great, etc, etc.

 

3) "Why did you proceed from here? These rules are the same, aren't they?"

 

But the answer is that the devil is in the details. Furthermore, there are some of us who can only support the latest version of the rules, whatever that version happens to be. And this argument above is what kills the system. Part of the gaming experience is a near universal understanding of "what's going on." Versions of Hero are already extremely similar, and while people can drop back to previous versions of the game relatively easily, freelancers like myself don't have that choice. We have to roll with the ball where it lies. When people tell us "that's not the rules" and "Hero 6e1 says" and I've already been told by my editors "This is the rule set you use," things can go south. Imaginary Friends had two sets of page references for this reason. Champions Complete was too new at the time to not do this. Future products won't have that.

 

The problem is that this is a community of diverse voices. In our home games, we can all do what we want. But as far as published material is concerned, we can't all do what we want.

[Tasha]

As for me. When I answer rules questions I use Champions Complete as my first rules source. I only reference 6e1&2 IF there is a rule discussion that seems to require the greater depth of the Bigger Rule books (ie the Stretching Discussion). I give Champions Complete Page Numbers because I know that more people are likely to use that as a reference.

[Balabanto]

The thing is, Tasha, effectively those rules are gone. Champions Complete is all there is.

[Vondy]

1) Champions Complete *replaces* Champions: The SuperRoleplaying Game, 6E1, and 6E2 - and for a fraction of the cost. It's sold reasonably well too. Which matters.

I'm glad. I have Champions Complete and 6e1 / 6e2. I think CC is a great book and makes the game more accessible.

 

4) "If the buyer feels misled, he's probably not coming back to buy more products." Since we were printing books that nobody was buying previous to releasing Champions Complete and Monster Hunter International - both of which have been financially successful, I might add - they weren't coming back to buy more products anyhow. And nobody is being misled when you explicitly tell them they are buying a stand-alone game.

A prudent position to take , and its nice to see "reputation matters" in the market-place.

 

5) I set two simple goals for myself when I found myself uncomfortably seated upon the Iron Throne of Hero Games. One, I would never help create a product that lost money. So far, so good. Two, I would encourage new people to play the Hero system. The stand-alone books are a big part of that. As far as I can tell: also so far, so good.

Excellent news.

 

6) "Maybe we're moving back to the "separate games using the Hero Engine" model." We are. Because consumers seem to want it, and because it exposes new people to the system who might otherwise never try it. With that said, I'm thinking about next year's book or books being specific supplements for Champions Complete. Because they're projects I believe will self-fund on Kickstarter, that most of you will like, and that will sell enough after the fact to at least "do no harm."

I'm glad kick-starter is working!

 

7) "With Fantasy Hero Complete, we will now have three versions of the rules, with three different authors." If you include the 5th Edition Lucha Libre Hero and the upcoming Hero-derived Narosia: Sea of Tears, you could say seven including Darren Watts, Shane Harsh, and myself. And frankly... so what? Seeing the Hero System change and grow through the eyes of various fans and authors over the years is a good and healthy thing. That's why we've made our third party license so incredibly easy to use. Hero Games isn't just some stuff on my computer, a bank account, and a 1000-square-foot warehouse filled with books. It's a widespread idea that belongs most of all to you fans.

I really prefer the stand-alone approach. I applaud your bold steps.

[esampson]

As for me. When I answer rules questions I use Champions Complete as my first rules source. I only reference 6e1&2 IF there is a rule discussion that seems to require the greater depth of the Bigger Rule books (ie the Stretching Discussion). I give Champions Complete Page Numbers because I know that more people are likely to use that as a reference.

 

 

The thing is, Tasha, effectively those rules are gone. Champions Complete is all there is.

This is why I think a better setup would be to ensure that all rules are compatible with some core system and then the core system could be published separately, much like the Big Blue Books. The core system wouldn't be necessary at all for play but it would be available for people who need more detail on the finer points of a power.

 

Does OIF mean that the focus has to be obvious even when it isn't performing its function? Does it mean that it has to be obviously performing the function? These questions could make a big difference in whether an armored costume is OIF or IIF. Is it OIF if I can wear it under street clothes? Does that mean that if it functions (e.g. if I am shot) that it then becomes obvious because of torn clothing? When I am fully garbed in my costume and I am shot is it immediately obvious to everyone that it was my costume protecting me and not my natural toughness? When I am fully garbed is it immediately obvious to people that my costume is armored?

 

While the answers to these questions might seem to be immediately clear there still is a fair degree of room for people to argue interpretations. An awful lot of Spider-Man's enemies have armored costumes that would be usually construed as OIF yet they are pretty typically able to hide the fact they are wearing such costumes beneath a trench coat and hat. Naturally there are always going to be issues with the translation of comics to rules. Is this one of them? Maybe a trenchcoat is just a focus for a Naked Advantage (or whatever the new term is) that changes the OIF costume to an IIF costume.

 

While putting all of this detail into the Champions Complete book would be prohibitive (because it's not just this detail, but it is the same level for every power, advantage, limitation, etc.) due both to the cost of printing as well as bloating the book and making it unwieldy for new players (they generally wouldn't be as concerned with all the subtle nuances of whether a focus is Obvious or Inobvious and could get around the trenchcoat problem with general hand waving) I think a lot of us die-hard grognards would love to delve into it. Admittedly, sales for such a thing may not have a huge demand but with PDFs and with Print on Demand coming of age that becomes less of a problem. In fact given that such a system might need semi-constant revision as new questions are raised and answered a PDF subscription service might be a better way to go for such a set of rules (You pay $50 and for the next year you can download the latest revision to the Core Rules any time you want).

 

Even if the core system is never published it would be very useful for making sure that different authors maintain compatibility. It would prevent issues such as one author making the armored costume of his bad guy IIF since he is able to conceal it beneath a trench coat while another author uses the mechanism of an OIF costume with a separate Trench Coat focus that makes it IIF.

[Balabanto]

That's what editors are for. It's also why I use the path of least resistance rule. If there is any doubt, always use the lesser limitation bonus. If there is any doubt, use the more expensive advantage bonus. The biggest advantage you have here is asking a few simple questions, the most important of which are these:

 

Does the focus grant the character his powers and if so, is it immediately apparent that the powers come from the focus and not the character? If the answer is no, then the focus is inobvious.

 

Can the focus be disarmed, removed with a grab, etc? If so, the focus is accessible, if no, the focus is inaccessible.

 

Does the focus take a full combat turn to remove? If the answer is no, it's not inaccessible.

 

If the answer is no to all of these, this is better represented with other limitations.

 

Example: Thema is a Golden Age Superheroine infused with the power of an alien artifact, the Mace of Ankhnaton. The mace can't be disarmed, can't be removed after a turn, and the character can call it back whenever they want. This is just a multipower. It isn't anything else, unless there are limitations that require a skill roll to use the power, etc.

 

If there is confusion over the focus limitation, the answer is "There may be a better way within the rules to represent this device." Example: Terrax's cosmic axe. This is not a focus. He has total control over it, it always returns to him, it can't be disarmed, and the powers appear to come from the axe and not from Terrax. It's just his multipower of Cosmic Axe effects. He doesn't get a limitation bonus for it of any kind.

[esampson]

That's what editors are for. It's also why I use the path of least resistance rule. If there is any doubt, always use the lesser limitation bonus. If there is any doubt, use the more expensive advantage bonus. The biggest advantage you have here is asking a few simple questions, the most important of which are these:

 

Does the focus grant the character his powers and if so, is it immediately apparent that the powers come from the focus and not the character? If the answer is no, then the focus is inobvious.

 

Can the focus be disarmed, removed with a grab, etc? If so, the focus is accessible, if no, the focus is inaccessible.

 

Does the focus take a full combat turn to remove? If the answer is no, it's not inaccessible.

 

If the answer is no to all of these, this is better represented with other limitations.

 

Example: Thema is a Golden Age Superheroine infused with the power of an alien artifact, the Mace of Ankhnaton. The mace can't be disarmed, can't be removed after a turn, and the character can call it back whenever they want. This is just a multipower. It isn't anything else, unless there are limitations that require a skill roll to use the power, etc.

 

If there is confusion over the focus limitation, the answer is "There may be a better way within the rules to represent this device." Example: Terrax's cosmic axe. This is not a focus. He has total control over it, it always returns to him, it can't be disarmed, and the powers appear to come from the axe and not from Terrax. It's just his multipower of Cosmic Axe effects. He doesn't get a limitation bonus for it of any kind.

This wasn't really meant to be a post about foci but simply about how the amount of information you might want to put into something like Champions Complete will always be insufficient and will need expansion, usually to the point where it is unwieldly for the more 'casual' use.

 

As for the editors, yes, there job would be to examine a work and compare it to the core rules to make sure the rules are consistent between authors. However if the greater level of detail isn't recorded somewhere then even the editors will not be in full agreement. Is the Pendant of Isis OIF? It appears that it needs to be exposed and obvious for it to work, yet it can be worn underneath clothing and when seen can be easily believed to be a piece of jewelery (if perhaps a bit gaudy). Very easy for one editor to rule one way and another to rule another without a more lengthy explanation of precisely what Obvious means.

 

And once that information is written down it should probably be made available to authors creating products because while the editors are suppose to catch errors it would still reduce headaches if the authors knew the exact rules they were writing for rather than the general rules they were writing for.

[Hugh Neilson]

OK, I'll play:

 

That's what editors are for. It's also why I use the path of least resistance rule. If there is any doubt, always use the lesser limitation bonus. If there is any doubt, use the more expensive advantage bonus. The biggest advantage you have here is asking a few simple questions, the most important of which are these:

 

Does the focus grant the character his powers and if so, is it immediately apparent that the powers come from the focus and not the character? If the answer is no, then the focus is inobvious.

Yes, the powers obviously come from the focus

 

Can the focus be disarmed, removed with a grab, etc? If so, the focus is accessible, if no, the focus is inaccessible.

No, it takes a full phase.

 

Does the focus take a full combat turn to remove? If the answer is no, it's not inaccessible.

No, it takes a full phase.

 

So my focus is obvious and both accessible and inaccessible?

[Balabanto]

The answer to this, Hugh, is you have to pick an option the rules allow.