Marvel Cinematic Universe, Phase Three and BEYOOOOONND

[drunkonduty]

I agree that Cap's status as living symbol of America is not as well developed as it should have been.

 

I'm just riffing here, so apologies for the rambling nature of the post.

 

There's a lot there we can infer; especially if you know the comics. But I think the movies have failed to do a good enough job of this. They've done  some work to establish his status as a symbol. But not enough.

 

We can figure out (it's not stated anywhere) that Cap saved Bucky and the Howling Commandos early to mid 1944. That is when the Anzio landings happened. Then he continued to fight Nazis/Hydra til the end of the war. So about a year on the front lines. Before that he spent a lot of time (honestly can't say how long, but the US was already in the war when he started) as professional poster boy for the US war effort. So roughly between 1942 and 1944. That's a fair amount of time as the world's only super hero. You'd think that would generate some press. Especially since his job was generating press.

 

But then, in Avengers, there's an older cop who has no idea who he is. Agent Coulson, on the other hand,is a fan boy.

 

After helping save NY from aliens he then goes on to fight SHIELD/Hydra. That's got to be good press. But maybe not as a lot of it would be top secret type stuff, out of embarrassment if nothing else.

 

Long and short of it is... I'm confused as to exactly how well known/well loved Cap is. I mean it's constantly stated by characters in the movie that he's America's Sweetheart. But I don't think it's shown.

[Lord Liaden]

Okay, a few points to clarify here.

 

According to an interview I read with Captain America: The First Avenger director Joe Johnson, Steve Rogers' career as Captain America took place over nearly three years, so probably from mid-1942 to near the close of the war in Europe. For almost the first half of that he was heavily advertised as a patriotic symbol, not just in USO shows and public appearances, but in a series of movies (which even the Red Skull said he saw). The remaining almost-two years he fought in Europe, which as we saw in scenes from the Marvel films, was also played up in American news reels.

 

As for the cop in New York during the Chitauri invasion who didn't recognize Cap, that was Steve's first modern public appearance. The cop suddenly saw a guy in a costume which only passingly resembled the uniform worn by a man presumed dead for seven decades. How would you react?

[drunkonduty]

So re. timing of the Cap's army career, it's what I said.

As for the cop's reaction being perfectly rational. Yep.

 

My point was Cap's status wasn't very well shown in the movies. Which is a failure of movie 101: show, don't tell. We are told Cap is super popular. We aren't shown it very clearly. At least, it isn't that clear to me.

[Lord Liaden]

Can't argue with that. The very fact so many viewers of the movies misinterpret the extent and awareness of Cap's career, shows that it should have been made clearer.

[Pattern Ghost]

1 hour ago, Greywind said:

Steve was active for years before he landed Red Skull's plane in the water. He mentions specific years during CA:TWS and I believe he did also in CA:CW.

 

CA:TFA didn't really portray that very well, though. And that, rather than references in dialog is what's going to stick for most movie goers, I think.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Steve knew Bucky was framed. What would Steve do to clear his buddy of these charges?

Framed?  He was the one that murdered Stark's Parents, that wasn't an LMD, it wasn't a clone.  Bucky tried to convince him that he'd done horrendous evil stuff, and he got a stack several inches thick on what the Winter Soldier had been up to.  There's being a friend and then there's just being crazy.

[Pattern Ghost]

In the comics, friends help brainwashed friends.

[Matt the Bruins]

29 minutes ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

Framed?  He was the one that murdered Stark's Parents, that wasn't an LMD, it wasn't a clone.  Bucky tried to convince him that he'd done horrendous evil stuff, and he got a stack several inches thick on what the Winter Soldier had been up to.  There's being a friend and then there's just being crazy.

 

You do get that up until the last little bit of the movie, who killed Tony Stark's parents was important to exactly one person: Tony Stark? The authorities were going all out with the huge manhunt for Barnes because he appeared to have just firebombed a diplomatic meeting that resulted in the death of Wakanda's king and injuries to who knows how many other heads of state and ambassadors, not because of assassinations he carried out as a perhaps mythical Russian agent decades earlier.

[Lord Liaden]

The American justice system can find someone accused of a crime not guilty by reason of mental disease or defect. That defense has never applied to anyone better than Bucky Barnes. The Winter Soldier was a completely different personality without even the memory of Bucky Barnes. He had zero free will regarding what Hydra ordered him to do. Once Bucky was again in control of his mind he had no desire nor intention to kill anyone. Ironically, he only became a lethal threat again after he was captured, allowing Zemo the opportunity to take control of him.

[RDU Neil]

15 hours ago, Lord Liaden said:

To quote one reviewer discussing Civil War, "If my government abuses its control of me, nothing's going to happen. If the government abuses its control of Captain America, or the Vision, or the Hulk, terrible things could happen."

 

Absolutely. And if I abuse my individual freedom, not much happens other than jail. If Captain America, or the Vision or the Hulk abuse their individual freedom, terrible things DO happen, as we've seen.

 

 

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

 

My point was Cap's status wasn't very well shown in the movies. Which is a failure of movie 101: show, don't tell. We are told Cap is super popular. We aren't shown it very clearly. At least, it isn't that clear to me.

 

 

Right, and whether or not he was active for years, it didn't look that way in the movie.  They did a montage without the slightest reference to time, in various attacks on Hydra which, lets face it, can't be that vast or widespread -- certainly less so than the German forces at the time.  So MOVIE Captain America, not Cap we know and love from 70 years of comics, the one shown in the movie doesn't seem to have earned the respect and admiration he's given.  Dropping in a retcon line in later movies (which I missed, if someone has quotes or something I'd appreciate it) doesn't help that any.

[zslane]

If the MCU was built entirely on 13-episode Netflix shows, instead of 90-120 minute movies, there would have been plenty of time to show all kinds of things, including the full extent of Cap's public identity and the general public's sentiments towards him. But it's not, and the writers and directors have to decide how to best parcel out the 90-120 minutes they do have to tell their story. Clearly, montages and brief mentions here and there are not enough for you guys, so there aren't really any tricks left in the book to deliver non-essential information like this. Besides, I seriously doubt anyone involved in the MCU thought people would be critical of the lack of time spent establishing how treasured Captain America is in modern times, and so saw no reason to spend any significant screen time on it.

[RDU Neil]

17 minutes ago, zslane said:

If the MCU was built entirely on 13-episode Netflix shows, instead of 90-120 minute movies, there would have been plenty of time to show all kinds of things, including the full extent of Cap's public identity and the general public's sentiments towards him. But it's not, and the writers and directors have to decide how to best parcel out the 90-120 minutes they do have to tell their story. Clearly, montages and brief mentions here and there are not enough for you guys, so there aren't really any tricks left in the book to deliver non-essential information like this. Besides, I seriously doubt anyone involved in the MCU thought people would be critical of the lack of time spent establishing how treasured Captain America is in modern times, and so saw no reason to spend any significant screen time on it.

 

Actually, I find the amount of time spent just fine... I just interpret it as "honored, but not revered like the comics, and honor only goes so far in buying credibility under such circumstances" where others feel differently. I'd argue that I'm interpreting it closer to the Russo brothers, because if he was as revered as others seem to expect, then everyone would have just "Shut up... Caps talking!" and we wouldn't have had a movie.  Such information isn't "non-essential" if verisimilitude and/or plot are affected by it.

[RDU Neil]

13 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

Framed?  He was the one that murdered Stark's Parents, that wasn't an LMD, it wasn't a clone.  Bucky tried to convince him that he'd done horrendous evil stuff, and he got a stack several inches thick on what the Winter Soldier had been up to.  There's being a friend and then there's just being crazy.

12 hours ago, Matt the Bruins said:

 

You do get that up until the last little bit of the movie, who killed Tony Stark's parents was important to exactly one person: Tony Stark? The authorities were going all out with the huge manhunt for Barnes because he appeared to have just firebombed a diplomatic meeting that resulted in the death of Wakanda's king and injuries to who knows how many other heads of state and ambassadors, not because of assassinations he carried out as a perhaps mythical Russian agent decades earlier.

 

In this case, I'm actually agreeing with Christopher, which is rare, I know. It isn't that the authorities knew about Stark's parents... it is that CAP KNEW! The biggest "Whoa!" moment for me in the movie is that Cap states that he suspected, based on all the info Fury had given him and the months of searching... that he highly suspected that Barnes was behind Stark's parent's death.

 

That suddenly puts everything is a VERY different light, because it explains why Cap never really asked for help with Barnes; why he did everything on his own, and never really laid his cards on the table. That paints Cap in a much less flattering light, and IMO, it is what REALLY sent Stark over the "He killed my mom!" edge.

 

It wasn't just that Cap supported Bucky, but that he knew about Stark's parents and never came clean... that he made his choice, Bucky before Stark and the Avengers. That was what I loved about Zemo's plan... if you are going to have a convoluted plan to destroy the Avengers, hinge it on personal betrayals.

 

Again, I love this movie because neither of the protagonists were right, and both made decisions that made things worse, and both egotistical enough (in very different ways) to justify their decisions to themselves. Oh, and all of it completely in character for these movie versions of the two classics. Stark is the most self-sabotaging of characters (doing the right thing in the most wrong way possible), while Bucky is the most important person in Cap's life (especially after Peggy died).

 

[Starlord]

Cap did whatever he could to save a friend who had been tortured and mind-controlled for 70 years.  Cap was right.  Maybe...maybe...the ends didn't justify his means (and he apologized afterwards btw), but he kept that friend from being murdered.  Cap was right.

 

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

Clearly, montages and brief mentions here and there are not enough for you guys, so there aren't really any tricks left in the book to deliver non-essential information like this.

 

There were a lot of tricks that could have been used, like dates at the bottom of the screen calendars being ruffled through, newspaper headlines showing events tied to real world events, etc.  I don't think they ever intended the original Cap film to be over a long period of time, then realized it had to have been to make the character work.

[Old Man]

3 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

 

Right, and whether or not he was active for years, it didn't look that way in the movie.  They did a montage without the slightest reference to time, in various attacks on Hydra which, lets face it, can't be that vast or widespread -- certainly less so than the German forces at the time.  So MOVIE Captain America, not Cap we know and love from 70 years of comics, the one shown in the movie doesn't seem to have earned the respect and admiration he's given.  Dropping in a retcon line in later movies (which I missed, if someone has quotes or something I'd appreciate it) doesn't help that any.

 

Cap was almost certainly more active than most Americans who fought in the European theater, given that less than a year elapsed between D-Day and V-E day.  And how long does it take to earn widespread respect in WWII?  Anyone who landed at Normandy probably earned that respect in less than 24 hours.

[Greywind]

...and Steve was bummed because he wasn't there.

[Greywind]

http://marvelcinematicuniverse.wikia.com/wiki/1940s

[zslane]

1 hour ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

 

There were a lot of tricks that could have been used, like dates at the bottom of the screen calendars being ruffled through, newspaper headlines showing events tied to real world events, etc.

 

Somehow I doubt that would appease the critics of this particular issue.

[Lord Liaden]

I dunno... sounds good to me.

[slikmar]

My brother actually was really annoyed with Ragnarok. He couldn't get past Thor and Hulk making quips and then a scene flashing to Thor's friends and people being slaughtered by Hel.

[Starlord]

It was kind of odd that Thor was FAR more upset at the thought of his hair being cut than the death of his dad, his city, his buddy Mjolnir, and the Warriors Three. 

[Lord Liaden]

I admit, I find the tone shift between the yuks on Sakaar, and the truly grim events on Asgard, quite jarring.

[Pattern Ghost]

I thought the Warriors Three deserved a better exit.