The Superman problem

[Christopher]

Of all the Superheroes between DC and Marvel, Superman has a unique problem:

His powerlevel - or at least his upper potential - is unlimited.

The only thing keep him (somewhat) in check are his own psychological limits. Or not having tried to break a limit yet.

 

Only the two Superman vs Goku deathbattles made me fully aware of that fact.

Before I just asumed he just had poorly defined power levels (based on having too many writers), but actually his intention appears to have been the one absolute of the DC universe.

He is the best a human can become even if we have all the power. He prooves it is possible to have the absolute power without being corrupted by it.

 

In every setting where he was not the "boyscout", he was the single most threathening Character in the universe.

His "Man of Steel" interpretation is definitely very scary for the humans.

 

I think at least Toryama is partially aware of that, with the Character of Lord Beerus (Dragonball Super interpretation* in particular):

Beerus is very similar in mindset to Goku. But he archieved a powerlevel nobody could challenge anymore. And has been stuck at this leve for at least 900 years (according to Whiz).

Indeed for me it seemed like Beerus is practically depressed about his own power and the lack of a challenge. Unlike Goku he also has a Kai-level lifetime and nearly nobody to relate too.
In a way Beerus is the worst Goku could become if he ever ran out of challenges to conquer and outlived his friends and family.

 

That does at least explain his fixation on the SSJ God. He was depressed for at least 900 years, with only food and the odd exploding planet to cheer him up. Until the SSJ God came around.

 

Now I stumbeled upon a anime that explores the same issue complex - effectively unlimited power with Goku mindset - "One Punch Man". Basically a superhero that is so powerfull, he can beat every monster/villain with one punch. And he is really depressed about it. "Absolute power is boring."

 

 

*I noticed severe difference in his Character between Battle of Gods and Dragonball Super. I asume that either BoG is another universe or that at least DBS will become cannon that ignores the movies (again).

[bubba smith]

I see your point

[Christopher R Taylor]

Well Supes does have some limitations, such as his vulnerability to magic and kryptonite.  Also his personal code of behavior (at least, in the comics) keeps him within specific, narrow boundaries.

 

The Hulk is theoretically unlimited in power as well though.  His strength has no upper end.

[zslane]

Superman did not start out that way. I don't think that was Siegal and Schuster's intention at all. Superman evolved into the unstoppable god somewhere along the way for a myriad of reasons, few of them having to do with deep philosphical explorations of the human condition.

 

The ancient Greeks understood that mythological heroes, and even the gods themselves, were more interesting when deeply flawed. Human even, albeit immortal. But the writers of ancient Greece didn't have monthly circulation figures to maintain, or stockholders demanding double-digit returns on investment every year. I'm sure they had their share of bad writers too, but most of them have been lost to history, and so we forget that every society has its cultural trash, even Classical Greece.

 

I look at what Superman has become during my lifetime and I wonder what the appeal is. He certainly doesn't entertain me anymore, and there is virtually nothing left of his character that I can relate to. Maybe one day he will once again be relevant.

[Comic]

What Superman in DC suffers is the Galactus problem.

 

While I might read a comic series with Galactus in it, I've long ago gotten bored with the Clark Kent version of Galactus, and much prefer comics with some tension that won't be solved in the end by Deus Ex Kryptonian Physiology.

[Opale]

The perfect Evolution for Superman, is to become... Wonder Woman

 

Now this is an interesting character which I can easily relate to when I daydream

 

"La Femme est l'avenir de l'Homme" 

 

Opale

[Christopher]

Superman did not start out that way. I don't think that was Siegal and Schuster's intention at all. Superman evolved into the unstoppable god somewhere along the way for a myriad of reasons, few of them having to do with deep philosphical explorations of the human condition.

The original Shuster and Siegel superman was even more broken. He could obliterate Solar Systems by Sneezing!

 

I can only advice to watch the first part of both Superman vs Goku Deathbattles. They do a very good job of summing the characters up.

[bigbywolfe]

What you described is Silver Age, not the original. Also, he had inhaled a city full of magic sneezing powder from Mxyzptlk, everything Mxy does defies logic not to mention physics.

[massey]

The original Superman was unstoppably powerful.  Remember that while the guy from the 40s might have only been a 75 Str, 40/40 rDef brick with a ton of leaping, he was only fighting normals.

[bubba smith]

the writers became a victim of power escalation

[CaptnStrawberry]

Problem solved!

 

[Cassandra]

Perhaps it would be better just to assume the comic books were exaggerating Superman power, and just build him on the same points as everyone else, and let the Hero System take care of the rest.

[massey]

Superman has more powers and abilities than most heroes do. If you give him the same number of points as everyone else, then he will be weaker than everyone else. He will be more spread thin.

[CaptnStrawberry]

In Champions terms, I always figured he has more complications than just about anybody else, too.  The above mentioned kryptonite and magic vulnerability, red sunlight reduces his strength to normal, codes against killing or even lying, a long list of dependants constantly getting in trouble, the world's media obsessed with trying to figure out his secret identity, and hunted by a lengthy list of powerful foes, including some with immense resources (Darkseid).  Basically, every supervillain in the world, the galaxy even, wants to make a name for himself as 'the guy (or gal) who took down Superman.' 

 

In the DCAU, they made it so that he was bulletproof but not totally invulnerable.  He would often be knocked back/out early in a fight, giving his teammates a chance to shine. 

[zslane]

The original Superman was faster than a speeding bullet, more powerful than a locomotive, and able to leap tall buildings in a single bound. Bullets also bounced off his body. Without extrapolating beyond reason, that means he can run at about Mach 1.5, can pull at least 50,000lbs (equivalent to a locomotive steam engine), and superleap about 500m (enough to clear the Empire State Building). There is nothing Galactus-like about (that version of) him.

[massey]

So I built him on a series of tiers.  They range from Golden Age/Animated Series level, where he's got like a 70 Str and appropriate levels of Def and other powers, all the way up to a Pre-Crisis monstrosity.  The idea is to use it to explain certain inconsistencies in his power level in the comics.  To explain why he acts the way he does.  Why does he sometimes fight Kalibak or Lobo to a draw, and sometimes he slaps them unconscious with a casual gesture?  This is why.

 

Generally Supes will operate on the lowest power level available.  He's got 70 Str and like 30 Def, resistant.  He's got a 25 Dex and 6 Spd, which puts him in the "heroic human martial artist" level.  Superman, left to his own devices, will stay at this level of power forever.  He wants to be as close to humanity as possible.  He'll fly around Metropolis with like 25" of Flight, rescue cats out of trees, stop bank robberies, things like that.  If a supervillain appears, Superman will stay at this level of power if he can.  So anytime you see Superman fighting some big robot the Toyman made, or something like that, this is what he's doing.  Superman has a tremendous amount of Stun and End, even at this level.  It is really hard to knock him out.  In a 12D6 game, this is probably a good place for Superman.  He can be "super", yet still affected by the majority of opponents.  This is the version of Superman that Batman can do a ninja move on and fling him into a wall.

 

If Superman encounters an opponent he can't beat at that level, or he is in a situation where a lot of people will die if he doesn't use more power, then he'll go up to one of the higher tiers.  This isn't like using a Multiform or something like that, it doesn't take an action -- he's just suddenly got more power.  Doctor Destroyer shows up and starts blasting people with a 10D6 RKA?  Supes blinks and he's now got 130 Str, 60 Def and a 10 Spd.  But when Dr D is defeated, Superman willingly lowers his power level back down to where it was before.  I've got versions of him going all the way up to 250 Str, 150 Def.

 

Why does he do this?  Because Superman is really really nice.  He doesn't want other heroes to feel outclassed.  So he holds back a lot.  A LOT.  He doesn't even want villains to feel that bad.  He fights Durak or something.  "Ow, that was a really good punch!  I don't know if I could take too much more of that.  You're probably one of the strongest opponents I've ever fought!"  Then his supersenses pick up the fact that a dam is about to burst in Guatemala or something, and the next panel has Superman backhanding Durak without even looking at him.  The other guy goes flying into the distance and Supes vanishes in a streak of red to go save a lot of people.

[Comic]

The original Superman was faster than a speeding bullet, more powerful than a locomotive, and able to leap tall buildings in a single bound. Bullets also bounced off his body. Without extrapolating beyond reason, that means he can run at about Mach 1.5, can pull at least 50,000lbs (equivalent to a locomotive steam engine), and superleap about 500m (enough to clear the Empire State Building). There is nothing Galactus-like about (that version of) him.

 

Actually, in April 1938, Superman's power levels were described in Action Comics #1 as leap 1/8 of a mile, hurdle 20-story buildings, "raise tremendous weights", outrun a train, and "that nothing less than a bursting shell could penetrate his skin" and the train in question was likely the A4 Mallard, which a few months later broke its own US record and set the land speed record, at 125.88 mph on July 3rd 1938.

 

The tremendous weights Superman could lift appear to have had no upper limit but the needs of the story, and in the first story that need was about six tons.

 

The faster than a speeding bullet took years to happen, as did the 'more powerful than a locomotive'.

 

And Superman stories have always been tall tales of imagining the unimaginable, and then topping it. Superman's over-the-topness is his signature characteristic. It's what makes him a great role model for Champions superheroes, but a terrible by-the-book Champions player character for balanced campaigns.

 

But over-the-top fits some gaming groups, and I have no issue with that where the group is having fun.

[Badger]

Well Supes does have some limitations, such as his vulnerability to magic and kryptonite.  Also his personal code of behavior (at least, in the comics) keeps him within specific, narrow boundaries.

 

The Hulk is theoretically unlimited in power as well though.  His strength has no upper end.

And in the Superfriends version, deductive reasoning was not his friend either. Sorry, I have to go there, now and again.

 

Superman, has never really been a favorite of mine when I think back on it. He is a combo of way too powerful and mundane vulnerabilities.

[Christopher]

Perhaps it would be better just to assume the comic books were exaggerating Superman power, and just build him on the same points as everyone else, and let the Hero System take care of the rest.

But exactly that can not work with Superman. You are trying to squeeze infinite power into a finite point budget. At the very least the guy is a flying brick, speedster, energy blaster, detective/reporter with supersenses.

That is 4-5 concepts - each one enough to use up a point budget - at once.

 

And he got more where that came from.

 

The original Superman was unstoppably powerful.  Remember that while the guy from the 40s might have only been a 75 Str, 40/40 rDef brick with a ton of leaping, he was only fighting normals.

 

 

The tremendous weights Superman could lift appear to have had no upper limit but the needs of the story, and in the first story that need was about six tons.

 

The faster than a speeding bullet took years to happen, as did the 'more powerful than a locomotive'.

 

And Superman stories have always been tall tales of imagining the unimaginable, and then topping it. Superman's over-the-topness is his signature characteristic. It's what makes him a great role model for Champions superheroes, but a terrible by-the-book Champions player character for balanced campaigns.

His "always being able to top" the foe is what makes his powerlevel so hard to nail down. His upper potential is unlimited.

 

There is the old question who would win a landrace - Superman or Flash. I think the canonical answer is: Superman can go faster then Flash, but Flash has a lot more experience at running for long times at high speed. So Flash would win, until Superman would actually do some more running (and less flying), at wich point he would beat Flash.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Why does he do this?  Because Superman is really really nice.  He doesn't want other heroes to feel outclassed.  So he holds back a lot.  A LOT.  He doesn't even want villains to feel that bad.  He fights Durak or something.  "Ow, that was a really good punch!  I don't know if I could take too much more of that.  You're probably one of the strongest opponents I've ever fought!"  Then his supersenses pick up the fact that a dam is about to burst in Guatemala or something, and the next panel has Superman backhanding Durak without even looking at him.  The other guy goes flying into the distance and Supes vanishes in a streak of red to go save a lot of people.

 

 

There's a lot of truth to this.  Superman holds back constantly (insert world of cardboard speech here).  He pretty much lives in fear of killing people he fights, of turning his opponent into a smear of strawberry jam by accident.

 

As for who is faster on foot: The Flash, by a long shot, but Superman can fly as fast.  At least, that's what the comics show.  Depending on what era, story, etc.  DC isn't real big on specifics and benchmarks - that's why Who's Who had almost no specific data like The Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe.

[Cassandra]

There's a lot of truth to this.  Superman holds back constantly (insert world of cardboard speech here).  He pretty much lives in fear of killing people he fights, of turning his opponent into a smear of strawberry jam by accident.

 

As for who is faster on foot: The Flash, by a long shot, but Superman can fly as fast.  At least, that's what the comics show.  Depending on what era, story, etc.  DC isn't real big on specifics and benchmarks - that's why Who's Who had almost no specific data like The Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe.

 

Superspeed running could be simulated with Teleport.

[bubba smith]

Cristopher Taylor is correct DC prefers to allow the writers leeway as to powers

[megaplayboy]

I wouldn't say that Superman is the only character with this attribute of being nigh-omnipotent and nigh-invincible. Thor, the Spectre, Silver Surfer, even Batman. Superheroes win a lot more than they lose, on average, and even for "Street-level" heroes their lives are not in serious jeopardy all that frequently. Most of this, however, has little to do with their relative level of ability within the fictional universe. Mostly it's because they are the heroes of their own stories, and in those stories the heroes usually win.

As to the general problem of always being able to step up the level of power to solve the problem, this isn't limited to being super-powerful. Super-smart characters are often portrayed this way, too. Reed Richards always has an answer, a gadget or explanation that enables him to overcome the obstacle or adversary. Tony Stark whips up a new suit of armor. Etc.

 

Generally, it's a matter of "balancing" the story so that any challenge is suitably challenging for the hero. Superman can move planets(sometimes), but how is he at resolving diplomatic problems? Tensions in his relationship(s)? What about magical or psionic foes, or opponents who can't be beaten with a simple punch in the jaw? Or Luthor, who tends to operate behind proxies, with the protection of the law, etc?

[Christopher R Taylor]

I agree, when Superman is written well its not about someone that's able to punch him out or dangerous to him physically, but instead something he can't solve, figure out, or is being attacked from a different direction such as legally or psychologically.

 

Dr Strange can do, well, anything.  But the best stories are ones where he solves problems and mysteries, or is under assault in a way he doesn't understand or know.  Its not about being too powerful, its about finding other ways to challenge them.  There's almost nothing in the marvel universe that's going to give Thor a physical fight that even challenges him but he's had some very great comics over the years, such as Simonson's run.

[Christopher R Taylor]

I agree, when Superman is written well its not about someone that's able to punch him out or dangerous to him physically, but instead something he can't solve, figure out, or is being attacked from a different direction such as legally or psychologically.

 

Dr Strange can do, well, anything.  But the best stories are ones where he solves problems and mysteries, or is under assault in a way he doesn't understand or know.  Its not about being too powerful, its about finding other ways to challenge them.  There's almost nothing in the marvel universe that's going to give Thor a physical fight that even challenges him but he's had some very great comics over the years, such as Simonson's run.