Longevity: What Purpose Does it Serve?

[Nolgroth]

Pretty much what it says in the title.

 

I got to thinking about things you don't pay points for and my mind swung around to the longevity of certain species archetypes. Then I got to thinking that, aside from defending against some really esoteric NND attack builds, Longevity basically serves no real purpose in the game. Do you have campaigns that run a thousand years game time? Does the elf survive and all of his not so immortal companions die off somewhere in there? It there a material benefit to Longevity in your game?

 

I ask, because the more I think about it, the more Life Support: Longevity is one of those things like KS: Garbage Pail Kids. It might come up during the game but chances are very likely than an entire campaign can come and go without nary the mention of relative age. I want to see how Herodom Assembled handles this topic. Without a compelling reason, Longevity is about to go into the 0 Point flavor ability category.

[Hugh Neilson]

My bias is to either commit it will be relevant in play (commensurate with the rather low point cost) or allow it for free (like a very narrow KS). Perhaps it might come up because this character has, on occasion, some relevant life experience from his extended lifespan.

 

Thinking back to Plastic Man in the JLA, when his immortality became apparent because the rest of the team got back to the present from the distant past, then went and collected him from where he had been stranded for all that time. ["And perhaps that gives you some insight into the amount of power behind that goofy grin"]

 

That said, a lot of abilities may not actually change the game despite having point implications. If someone did not buy, for example, Megascale Teleport which can carry the PC group, does that mean they would often arrive too late to participate in the scenario? Had they not purchased a Contact with local authorities, would they be sitting at home while some NPC with such contacts solved tonight's adventure? If the PC's had no Hunteds, there would be no adversaries for them to contest with?

 

Often, points spent drive the nature of the challenges in the game, rather than being the solutions to such challenges. And/or they just make the PC's look impressive.

[Lezentauw]

If you do not have spells or creatures that can age the player, then no longevity is more of a flavor than an advantage.  In other games, *cough* D&D *cough*, a ghost will age you 10-40 each time it hits.  Or, if you use the spell Speed a lot, you will age 1 year each time you benefit from that spell.  

 

So, if you have age affecting things like that, then longevity has some value, otherwise you are correct in saying that it is more of a flavor thing and should probably not really be worth spending points on...

[Lord Liaden]

Sometimes my campaigns do include such "really esoteric NND attack builds." In the fantasy or superhero genres, it isn't uncommon to encounter an opponent with "death powers" or "time powers" to which this would be an appropriate defense. On the role-playing front it's a good rationale for a character to be familiar with events, places, and people from the ancient past, which IME applies most often to fantasy. In that case Longevity would function rather like a Perk.

 

Hero System operates on the basis of, "you get what you pay for." Where the examples above apply, I believe Longevity is an appropriate buy, and reasonably costed. If you don't anticipate those situations coming up in your campaigns, or only extremely rarely, I agree that it can be relegated to a free background element.

[Surrealone]

Sometimes my campaigns do include such "really esoteric NND attack builds." In the fantasy or superhero genres, it isn't uncommon to encounter an opponent with "death powers" or "time powers" to which this would be an appropriate defense. On the role-playing front it's a good rationale for a character to be familiar with events, places, and people from the ancient past, which IME applies most often to fantasy. In that case Longevity would function rather like a Perk.

 

Hero System operates on the basis of, "you get what you pay for." Where the examples above apply, I believe Longevity is an appropriate buy, and reasonably costed. If you don't anticipate those situations coming up in your campaigns, or only extremely rarely, I agree that it can be relegated to a free background element.

This completely encapsulates my thoughts on the matter, and I could not have said it better.  Frankly, Longevity is properly priced for the defense it purchases/provides against appropriate NND and AVLD/AVAD attacks.

[Christopher R Taylor]

What does it do? 

Well it can protect a character from time- or age-based attacks, even negate them.

It can be very useful in a long-term, or wide-scope campaign (as in, one that goes through years rather than days of events).

Its valuable for defining things in a character such as elves who live longer than humans.

Really, the price to live 500 years is pretty darn cheap.  Its not like its hurting your character.

[Christopher]

Pretty much what it says in the title.

 

I got to thinking about things you don't pay points for and my mind swung around to the longevity of certain species archetypes. Then I got to thinking that, aside from defending against some really esoteric NND attack builds, Longevity basically serves no real purpose in the game. Do you have campaigns that run a thousand years game time? Does the elf survive and all of his not so immortal companions die off somewhere in there? It there a material benefit to Longevity in your game?

 

I ask, because the more I think about it, the more Life Support: Longevity is one of those things like KS: Garbage Pail Kids. It might come up during the game but chances are very likely than an entire campaign can come and go without nary the mention of relative age. I want to see how Herodom Assembled handles this topic. Without a compelling reason, Longevity is about to go into the 0 Point flavor ability category.

 

My bias is to either commit it will be relevant in play (commensurate with the rather low point cost) or allow it for free (like a very narrow KS). Perhaps it might come up because this character has, on occasion, some relevant life experience from his extended lifespan.

 

Thinking back to Plastic Man in the JLA, when his immortality became apparent because the rest of the team got back to the present from the distant past, then went and collected him from where he had been stranded for all that time. ["And perhaps that gives you some insight into the amount of power behind that goofy grin"]

 

That said, a lot of abilities may not actually change the game despite having point implications. If someone did not buy, for example, Megascale Teleport which can carry the PC group, does that mean they would often arrive too late to participate in the scenario? Had they not purchased a Contact with local authorities, would they be sitting at home while some NPC with such contacts solved tonight's adventure? If the PC's had no Hunteds, there would be no adversaries for them to contest with?

 

Often, points spent drive the nature of the challenges in the game, rather than being the solutions to such challenges. And/or they just make the PC's look impressive.

 

 

If you do not have spells or creatures that can age the player, then no longevity is more of a flavor than an advantage.  In other games, *cough* D&D *cough*, a ghost will age you 10-40 each time it hits.  Or, if you use the spell Speed a lot, you will age 1 year each time you benefit from that spell.  

 

So, if you have age affecting things like that, then longevity has some value, otherwise you are correct in saying that it is more of a flavor thing and should probably not really be worth spending points on...

I have to agree that is highly situational. If you got the right NND's in the campaign (or the GM is willing to let it become a issue), then it might cost something.

But with many other cases it really becomes a flavor element.

 

It can propably the posterchild of the "what no to spend points on" rule.

Indeed it can be a posterchild of another idea of mine:

"What the GM can not use, does not cost any points/does not give any points". If the GM is not willing to make up those spells it is the same as him being unable to make a Complication Worthwhile.

 

What does it do? 

 

Well it can protect a character from time- or age-based attacks, even negate them.

It can be very useful in a long-term, or wide-scope campaign (as in, one that goes through years rather than days of events).

Its valuable for defining things in a character such as elves who live longer than humans.

Really, the price to live 500 years is pretty darn cheap.  Its not like its hurting your character.

It costs 3 points to become 500. Plus everyone seems to agree that you only use it in heroic games.

That is one skill worth of power on a really small budget. And only if the GM actually has spells ready with taht NDD defense or is willing to add them.

[Christopher R Taylor]

It costs 3 points to become 500.

 

Its the cost of a skill, less than 1/100th of your Superhero's starting points.

[eepjr24]

Its the cost of a skill, less than 1/100th of your Superhero's starting points.

Even in heroic it's only 1.7%. 

 

I use it as a player to influence my characters attitude. Those who live longer tend to be more deliberate and take a longer view on things, absent complications that would change that. 

 

- E

[bigdamnhero]

I ask, because the more I think about it, the more Life Support: Longevity is one of those things like KS: Garbage Pail Kids. It might come up during the game...

Hey, if a character wants to put points in KS: Garbage Pail Kids, I'll make sure it comes up in play at least once.

 

But yeah, point taken.

 

Plus everyone seems to agree that you only use it in heroic games.

Do we agree on that? I've seen it used in superhero games at least as often, if not more so. And since aging attacks tend to be more common in anything-goes supers, I'd say it's more likely to come up then.

 

I use it as a player to influence my characters attitude. Those who live longer tend to be more deliberate and take a longer view on things, absent complications that would change that. 

This. I've also let it be used as a proxy for KS: Stuff That Happened A Long Time Ago, or CuK: Old Timey Stuff, which can come in handy in time travel games.

 

I agree it's 90% flavor, but given how cheap it is I'm okay with paying for it.

[Ninja-Bear]

I agree Nolgroth about Life support. Thought along those lines for awhile now.

[Nolgroth]

Thank you everyone for responding. When I post these sorts of questions, I do so in the hope that somebody has an answer that is different than my supposition. It gives me an opportunity to see things from another point of view as I can be very...opinionated once my mind is set. As it turns out I got a lot of good feedback to consider.

 

That said, in my (not so) humble opinion, I dislike NND attacks and prefer AVAD/AVLD to model very strange attacks. So in this very particular instance, I would probably use Power Defense, Only versus Aging Attacks instead. For a heroic game, which is my go to, that still gives the Aging attack a chance to do a little damage while still providing decent defense at a low cost. I might even throw in a 0-Point Limitation on the Attack power that it doesn't work at all on characters who do not age (as opposed to have extended lifespans). 

 

Keep in mind that I have no real grief about using NND attacks or having Life Support options. Sometimes there is just no other way to model a given effect. I just like to look at how I can model an effect outside of the RAW. It's sort of like how I completely dismissed the Images, Only to Create Light and use Enhanced Perception (Sight Group), Usable Nearby. It comes out to like a point cheaper but it just feels right to me.

 

Again thanks for responding. Good information.

 

Nice to see you posting again Lezentauw. 

[Manic Typist]

Two thoughts, because so many others have already covered (very thoroughly) the pros/cons of a point for Longevity.

 

1) We frequently require PCs to spend X-points on Y-category to gain access to Z-ability. For instance, a wizard must invest at least 10 points into Ice Magic in order to learn/acquire higher level ice magics (The Reserved Magics of he Northern Umbra, as opposed to the Flurries of the Frost). Or you must spend so many points in Martial Arts KS in order to use the Martial Maneuvers associated with an art. Or more simply, one must have the "Touched" talent (5 points) to be able to use magic at all in X-setting.

 

 

This, essentially, constitutes a tax. A price to play. Therefore Longevity can be thought of in similar terms, while offering minor direct benefits like the above examples.

 

 

2) Many powers/abilities have indirect uses in play, especially roleplaying. You can perform Power Tricks, use an ability to intimidate or in an unexpected way that's not strictly in its description, etc.

 

Older nobleman giving your PCs some grief about showing proper respect? "I knew your father when he was knee high to a grasshopper, child. You should respect YOUR elders." +X to social interaction roll.

 

"Is there a chance I've seen this obscure language before, even though it's not on my sheet?" - a chance at a roll, modified by relevant skills.

 

There are more kinds of examples, obviously, though I feel most fall into the social/knowledge/language arenas.

[sageaqua]

I have an entire superhero team with immortality made up of ghosts, golems, elementals and others - all have pasts that crop up in the game from to time. Building a past for your Characters tells the players and gms who you are. You want to offer powers for free that's fine. But without a past - all your doing is building the most efficient character you can - To do that all you need is enough PD to take your own damage and run through something. . But it wouldn't be much fun. Now if your immortal and you've been trapped underground or in a cage for 50 - Captain America kind of thing or a forgotten god or even a new god such powers help you stand out." You know I heard Wonder Women's immortal. I wonder how she did it" asks the villain fearing dying from old age or a drain . etc.

 

You could build a character that's immortal that knows every marshal arts maneuver. Why? I had a ninja character like that - she was trained by the ghosts of her ancestors. - they where immortal and would possess her and trained her while she slept. She could never figure out why she kept waking up tired. As I said long life spans are useful for the story but combat wise?  It depends on the game - just don't get in the habit of free powers or players will take all those fee points and point out that the other players are cheating. Once the ball starts to roll down the hill the fabric of you worlds become undone.

[dsatow]

Longevity can also play a factor in very long campaigns.  If I was in that Strike Force campaign and one real year is one year in the game, that character would probably be hitting 50-60.

 

If you GM is nice or running multi-era games, your character can be in a Golden Age, Silver Age, Iron Age, and Celluloid Age game.

 

You can have a villain who ages people, backwards or forwards.  A person who is immortal can be immune.

 

I have seen some people use longevity as an ability to recall some thing from the past as an int roll instead of needing a skill. As an example:   

GM sticks fingers in players head: "This here building has a secret hide-a-way."  

Another player: "How do you know?"  

GM sticks fingers in players head: "It was the only bar in 1925."

[Lucius]

 

"Who wants to live forever?"

Brian May

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary says Brian may or may not want to live forever, but who dares to love forever, when love must die?

[Nolgroth]

Two thoughts, because so many others have already covered (very thoroughly) the pros/cons of a point for Longevity.

 

1) We frequently require PCs to spend X-points on Y-category to gain access to Z-ability. For instance, a wizard must invest at least 10 points into Ice Magic in order to learn/acquire higher level ice magics (The Reserved Magics of he Northern Umbra, as opposed to the Flurries of the Frost). Or you must spend so many points in Martial Arts KS in order to use the Martial Maneuvers associated with an art. Or more simply, one must have the "Touched" talent (5 points) to be able to use magic at all in X-setting.

 

 

This, essentially, constitutes a tax. A price to play. Therefore Longevity can be thought of in similar terms, while offering minor direct benefits like the above examples.

 

 

2) Many powers/abilities have indirect uses in play, especially roleplaying. You can perform Power Tricks, use an ability to intimidate or in an unexpected way that's not strictly in its description, etc.

 

Older nobleman giving your PCs some grief about showing proper respect? "I knew your father when he was knee high to a grasshopper, child. You should respect YOUR elders." +X to social interaction roll.

 

"Is there a chance I've seen this obscure language before, even though it's not on my sheet?" - a chance at a roll, modified by relevant skills.

 

There are more kinds of examples, obviously, though I feel most fall into the social/knowledge/language arenas.

 

This. This is the most compelling argument in favor of Life Support I have read today. Really well stated and thank you. That is exactly the sort of reasoning that helps me. Along with all the other posts in this thread that took the time to break it down, I am getting that LS: Longevity is not a standalone power, but rather like the KS: Martial Art needed to be a black belt as part of that package. The sum concept becomes greater than all of its parts.

 

Coming to that realization, I am less inclined to remove the Life Support: Longevity option from my games. 

 

You guys rock.

[Christopher]

Two thoughts, because so many others have already covered (very thoroughly) the pros/cons of a point for Longevity.

 

1) We frequently require PCs to spend X-points on Y-category to gain access to Z-ability. For instance, a wizard must invest at least 10 points into Ice Magic in order to learn/acquire higher level ice magics (The Reserved Magics of he Northern Umbra, as opposed to the Flurries of the Frost). Or you must spend so many points in Martial Arts KS in order to use the Martial Maneuvers associated with an art. Or more simply, one must have the "Touched" talent (5 points) to be able to use magic at all in X-setting.

 

 

This, essentially, constitutes a tax. A price to play. Therefore Longevity can be thought of in similar terms, while offering minor direct benefits like the above examples.

 

 

2) Many powers/abilities have indirect uses in play, especially roleplaying. You can perform Power Tricks, use an ability to intimidate or in an unexpected way that's not strictly in its description, etc.

 

Older nobleman giving your PCs some grief about showing proper respect? "I knew your father when he was knee high to a grasshopper, child. You should respect YOUR elders." +X to social interaction roll.

 

"Is there a chance I've seen this obscure language before, even though it's not on my sheet?" - a chance at a roll, modified by relevant skills.

 

There are more kinds of examples, obviously, though I feel most fall into the social/knowledge/language arenas.

 

 

Longevity can also play a factor in very long campaigns.  If I was in that Strike Force campaign and one real year is one year in the game, that character would probably be hitting 50-60.

 

If you GM is nice or running multi-era games, your character can be in a Golden Age, Silver Age, Iron Age, and Celluloid Age game.

 

You can have a villain who ages people, backwards or forwards.  A person who is immortal can be immune.

 

I have seen some people use longevity as an ability to recall some thing from the past as an int roll instead of needing a skill. As an example:   

GM sticks fingers in players head: "This here building has a secret hide-a-way."  

Another player: "How do you know?"  

GM sticks fingers in players head: "It was the only bar in 1925."

The rule purist in me cringes at that idea.

 

Yes, somebody with Longelevity should have knowledge of the past.

However, he should have bought the knowledge skills for it. Even just "KS: Personal History" would cover all those cases quite well, without having to invent skillike uses for a Power that is not really a skill.

If you want longelivity to work like a skill (say D&D style bard knowledge), then just make a skill out of it.´And let the "life longer" part not cost any points if it does not come up.

 

It feels like you are trying to hard to justify the cost, when it should be a clear case of "what not to spend points on".

I mean what if that character with longelivity suffers from really bad memory? Or maybe even Amnesia?

[Surrealone]

I mean what if that character with longelivity suffers from really bad memory? Or maybe even Amnesia?

Then the character should have an appropriate Complication to represent such a case.  (And note that the complication could be present regardless of the absence or presence of an appropriate KS -- which could result in a successful KS roll but a GM responding to indicate that the character can't remember.)

[bluesguy]

"Who wants to live forever?"

Brian May

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary says Brian may or may not want to live forever, but who dares to love forever, when love must die?

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PfiuIMwOq3s - I think of this scene before I think of that song (love Queen)

[bigdamnhero]

Yes, somebody with Longelevity should have knowledge of the past.

However, he should have bought the knowledge skills for it. Even just "KS: Personal History" would cover all those cases quite well...

Doesn't every character already have KS: Personal History? (Barring Physical Complication: Amnesia or something, as noted.) It's a fundamental part of being alive and intelligent, so much so that we don't bother to put it on the character sheet. The only difference here is how far back that personal history reaches. If we're not making 60-year-old characters pay more for their KS: Personal History than 15-year-olds, then why should the 500-year-old have to?

 

I get the rules purist argument against using LS to replace KSes. But I see immortality as simply an element of the character's background, and the personal history comes from that background, not directly from Longevity-the-Power. That may sound like semantics, but personally I tend to be fairly liberal with letting characters draw on knowledge based on their backstories anyway, ie - if a character's backstory is she grew up on a farm, I'll assume she basically knows her way around one even if she didn't put points into PS: Farmer. So I see no reason to treat "I'm 500 years old" any differently just because the player had to spend points to add that to their backstory.

 

Plus as has been pointed out, otherwise Longevity's just not going to come up in game much, so at least this way they get something tangible for the 3 points. Especially if it's something that only comes up once in awhile - if the player starts trying to use it every session, that might be different.

[Nolgroth]

Doesn't every character already have KS: Personal History? (Barring Physical Complication: Amnesia or something, as noted.) It's a fundamental part of being alive and intelligent, so much so that we don't bother to put it on the character sheet. The only difference here is how far back that personal history reaches. If we're not making 60-year-old characters pay more for their KS: Personal History than 15-year-olds, then why should the 500-year-old have to?

 

I get the rules purist argument against using LS to replace KSes. But I see immortality as simply an element of the character's background, and the personal history comes from that background, not directly from Longevity-the-Power. That may sound like semantics, but personally I tend to be fairly liberal with letting characters draw on knowledge based on their backstories anyway, ie - if a character's backstory is she grew up on a farm, I'll assume she basically knows her way around one even if she didn't put points into PS: Farmer. So I see no reason to treat "I'm 500 years old" any differently just because the player had to spend points to add that to their backstory.

 

Plus as has been pointed out, otherwise Longevity's just not going to come up in game much, so at least this way they get something tangible for the 3 points. Especially if it's something that only comes up once in awhile - if the player starts trying to use it every session, that might be different.

 

Good point on the default assumption of a KS: Personal History. I would go so far as to say that everybody has a sort of KS: Living Historian skill to go along with that, even if it is only at the Familiarity level. How many of us were in New York on 9/11? How many of us remember the event and its significance? Major cultural events become a part of that KS: Personal History. Our own opinions certainly shape how we viewed those events, but most of us have knowledge of the big things that occurred during our lifetimes. I mean, I wasn't at the Berlin wall when it fell, but I remember it. I wasn't in New York when the WTC was attacked, but I remember it. Similarly, Counselor Aelric might remember the Savage Wars, even though they occurred 374 years ago.  If nothing else, these KS should be considered Everyman skills. You might remember the events but the details are fuzzy after a couple of centuries.

[bigdamnhero]

Agreed. Tho it occurs to me we're all assuming Longevity: 500 Years means "I have lived for 500 years" rather than "I'm going to live for 500 years." The teenager who just discovered they're immortal doesn't necessarily have any more experience/wisdom/attitude than any other teenager. I still don't think I have a problem with paying the minimal cost for it - that's an awful lot of kewl for 3 points! - but it's something to consider.

[Christopher]

Doesn't every character already have KS: Personal History? (Barring Physical Complication: Amnesia or something, as noted.) It's a fundamental part of being alive and intelligent, so much so that we don't bother to put it on the character sheet. The only difference here is how far back that personal history reaches. If we're not making 60-year-old characters pay more for their KS: Personal History than 15-year-olds, then why should the 500-year-old have to?

Personal History and Breathing Air are everyman abilities.

Personal History going hundreds of years back and Breathing something in addition to Air are powers that cost point.

 

Do you write breahting Air on the sheet? Nope.

Same reason we do not write a Silent Everyman "KS: Personal History" on a sheet, because the game effect from that skill would be non-existent.

 

I agree that having that extra knowledge makes sense.

I just disagree with letting LS: Age be work as a Skill because you can not think of any actuall use. Just let it be cost free, and buy the skill instead.

[bigdamnhero]

Personal History and Breathing Air are everyman abilities.

Personal History going hundreds of years back and Breathing something in addition to Air are powers that cost point.

 

Do you write breahting Air on the sheet? Nope.

Same reason we do not write a Silent Everyman "KS: Personal History" on a sheet, because the game effect from that skill would be non-existent.

 

I agree that having that extra knowledge makes sense.

I just disagree with letting LS: Age be work as a Skill because you can not think of any actuall use. Just let it be cost free, and buy the skill instead.

Fair enough. I see your point, but it feels like a tomayto-tomahto thing to me. But again, I tend to be somewhat forgiving with background knowledge anyway as long as the player doesn't abuse it.