Is not Density Increase OP?

[Kevinmcc]

Qiuick background. I was 4th edition player. I got back into Champions about 2 years ago as the Game Master. I have helped about a dozen newbies create character as best I can with my past knowledge. I have just gotten a character that wants to use Density Increase.  I am finding it very Over Powered! 4 cp for +5 Str +1 PD +1 ED -2m KB and increased mass. If bought seperately that is 9cp. I did several searches to find any past discussion on this to no result. I had gotten the impression that 6e was meant to balance out the power inequities. Was there an errata I have not found? or is this really how it was meant to be?

 

Thank you 

Kevin

[Derek Hiemforth]

I don't think it's overpowered.  Yes, the component pieces would cost you 9 CP.  But when they're bundled as Density Increase, they also have a bunch of downsides:

• They cost END every Phase the power is active, even if they're not used (for example, having the +5 STR costs END even if you aren't using the STR, then costs more END if you actually do use the STR).
• The increased mass is more of a problem than a help.
• They have visible power effects.
• They're not Persistent.
• etc.

If you figure the package of 9 CP worth of stuff also comes with Costs Endurance (-½) and another -½ Limitation for the combined value of extra perceptibility, extra mass, etc., then the 9 CP is knocked down to 4 CP, just like the power has.

[Kevinmcc]

Thank you for your response,

 

 I still hold to my assertion that it is OP. I don't accept the argument that it comes with automatic limitations. It is a power that has to be activated and as such does cost END and would have to be paid for each phase, and using the STR gained should also cost the END that additional STR generates. Saying that is costs END when most powers do cost END just does not make sense given that Cost Endurance is only applicable to powers that don't cost END in the first place.  Nor do I agree there is a perceptibility limitation. The Power clearly states it is Obvious, many powers are.

 

For the character I was working on I have multiple powers in a VVP. Density Increase, (obviously), Blast, and Telekinesis. If I purchased each power separately for  60 CP:

• Blast would net me a 12d6 attack (This is a basic attack and is at the heart of the CP buy system and my standard of comparison),
• Telekinesis would give me just 39 STR albeit at a range, which is actually 1 STR short of Buying 40 STR and applying the advantage Ranged +1/2 to it.

Each of these two powers would cost me 6 END. Yet applying the same 60CP to Density increase I get

• +75 STR which gets added to my base STR 10 netting a 85 STR for a 17d6 punch attack. (60 CP Blast - 12d6, 60 CP Density Increase 17d6?)

Sure that punch would cost 14 END (8 END for the STR plus 6 END for the Density Increase) and it is not at range, but it is rather easy to mitigate that END cost.

 

If I just bought STR it would cost me 75 CP to get that same result at 8 END just over half what the Density Increase would cost. It does not make sense I can buy a power that cost more to get than if I purchased Density Increase.

 

Yet on top of that I am getting +15 PD/ED and defenses cost 0 END. That is a free 30 CP power!  To which we finally add -30m KB resistance. The likelihood of this character getting knocked back approaches zero. 

 

The only argument that does make sense is that increased mass is more of a problem than a help. Yet it is the basis for the KB resistance in the first place so it is a benefit. Any difficulty that a GM could implement to hinder a person with Density increase is easily overcome with a simple purchase of Flight which says nothing about the effect of the mass of the person who purchases the power. 

 

 

if I purchased STR, PD/ED, and KB Resistance separately, it would cost 135 CP less if I accept a limitation for each of these that "increases" my mass and the "problems" inherent with that mass. Even at a generous -1/2 this would still cost 90 CP. Yet Density Increase lets me get all of it for 30 CP less. I am truly surprised this has not been discussed before.

 

I think Density Increase could easily be a 10 CP power.  I am letting my player purchase it at 6 CP. 

 

Quote

YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR
One of the most important general principles underlying the
Champions rules is You Get What You Pay For. For the average
gaming group, the rules as written are reasonably “balanced;”
if two abilities have a roughly equal effect during the game,
they should have a roughly equal cost.

- Champions Complete Pg 7

 

I'm not seeing two abilities as "roughly equal" in either effect of cost.

 

Thank you again

Kevin

[assault]

What Derek said.

[Grailknight]

It's not really OP but it is better than it was in previous editions(except 1st, getting Figured Characteristics was broken).

[LoneWolf]

Adding on the advantages 0 END and persistent brings the cost up to 7 per level.  If we add on invisible powers to make it inobvious to two sense groups that brings the cost up to 9pt per level.   Density Increase is not overpowered it is priced exactly right.   

[Derek Hiemforth]

18 hours ago, Kevinmcc said:

I think Density Increase could easily be a 10 CP power.  I am letting my player purchase it at 6 CP. 

 

Great!  Sounds like you've solved it for your game.  As long as you and your players are good with your approach, then all is as it should be! 

[Christopher R Taylor]

Yeah you break it down by cost with modifiers and the price is right (I did the same thing Derek did when I first saw the price).  The reason it feels powerful is that its all straight combat bonus stuff, everything about it makes you fight better.  So if your game is combat heavy and doesn't require so much clever problem solving as a fist to the face, its going to be super effective.

[Derek Hiemforth]

1 hour ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

Yeah you break it down by cost with modifiers and the price is right (I did the same thing Derek did when I first saw the price).  The reason it feels powerful is that its all straight combat bonus stuff, everything about it makes you fight better.  So if your game is combat heavy and doesn't require so much clever problem solving as a fist to the face, its going to be super effective.

 

That's true, but it also reminds me of another point about the mass that hasn't been made so far in the thread.  While the mass effect of a level or two of Density Increase may not be all that problematic, the problem rapidly accelerates.  If you're using DI to ramp up your STR to supers-caliber attack levels (say, 10-12 levels of DI), that's a LOT of weight. You're basically reaching the point where you all but can't fight anywhere but on the ground (or under self-powered movement), and even then, there may often be environmental side effects.  If you're trundling around weighing in the neighborhood of 100-400 tons, that's no joke...

[Christopher R Taylor]

Yeah I didn't touch on that but a lot of GMs kind of let that slide, when its a serious issue.  Even with 28 points of you'll start to wade through asphalt streets like they were mud.  You will destroy cars, furniture, steps, elevators, sidewalks, etc.  All that weight concentrated on one square foot.... 

 

Even if you're not running a super realistic game, there comes a point a GM has to say "look, you weigh too much for this floor"

[unclevlad]

I have a weird fixation with EXTREMELY dense builds.  As in, a level of Shrinking with Normal Mass (1/2 height == 1/8 volume, so with normal mass, x8 density) and 4 levels of DI to get you into the 128 range.  Turns out that's about the same density as the sun's core.  

 

Yeah, when you get this massive...and this, note, only masses about 1.5 metric tons...you're way, way over weight limits for typical construction.  Look at weight-bearing ratings for even pretty high-grade shelving...500, maybe 1000 pounds.  Wanna run?  Cracking the concrete.  With the teeny tiny feet he'd have?  Making big deep holes as CRT points out.

 

Those 15 levels of DI you mention...2^15 is 128K  You're 10,000 times the density of lead. You're about 1000 times the density of the core of the sun.  There's basically NOTHING this dense in the realm of normal matter;  neutron stars are actually MUCH more dense, but that's a form of degenerate matter.  And figure that the mass alone...given the size of a human foot, the normal pressure exerted by the foot is about 6 pounds per square inch...PSI.  (CRT:  the area of a human foot is actually closer to about 1/6 of a square foot.)  So with this density your foot...just standing there...is exerting about 750K PSI.  VERY few things will not collapse.

 

To OP:  if you have 6E1, then go back into the appendix, page 446.  Heavy Characters.  It's the templates for "always on DI"...the bonuses and drawbacks for extremely massive characters whose density doesn't change.  Even 4 levels of DI justifies a 20 point physical complication;  5 levels maxes you at 25...very frequent, greatly impairing.  

 

[Hugh Neilson]

I'd say the OP's 6 points per level is probably reasonable if the increased mass is going to be ignored.  Now you are just buying the stats, with "costs END", which would be 6 points per level.  Although even then, you could also be Limiting them with Unified Power and/or Linked.

[unclevlad]

The very low base cost of DI, and the lack of Limitations, do have their own implications in the rules.  DI at 6 points per level is NOT identical to the STR, PD, ED, and KBR bought with Costs END.  They look that way on the surface...but not once other Advantages and Limitations come into play.  The low base cost makes Advantages cheaper.  Limitations are subject to diminishing returns...you get less and less for each -1/4.  First gives 20% savings.  Second gives 13%.  Third gives 9%.  Fourth gives 7%.  There can be active point implications for MPs and VPPs.

 

I've done "Constant Mass DI" like that, buying STR, PD, and ED...but not necessarily the KB resistance.  It's a combination of Shrinking and DI where the mass changes offset.  But rather than worrying about it, given that even the KB is being cancelled, just buy everything as a compound power with the SFX of "I'm smaller."

 

These are all basically equivalent...not in points per se but in effect...as a Compound Power:

 

Shrinking, 1 level

DI, 3 levels

 

Shrinking, 1 level, Normal Mass

+15 STR, +3 PD, +3 ED.  Add in Perceivable and Costs END to Maintain on some of em.

 

+15 STR, +3 PD, +3 ED, +2 DCV.  Again, toss in Perceivable (none of these are normally) and Costs END to Maintain

Custom Power, hard to spot...4 points for -2 to perception rolls

SFX:  half normal height

 

Since Shrinking doesn't impact movement (at least not at this level...gets more arguable with several levels) and the mass and KB are all offsetting, this is the net result.  You maybe have to tweak with custom limitations, but it's manageable.  

 

Not saying any of these is right or wrong...just pointing out that they're all functionally equivalent.  This gets you a baseline to start saying, OK, I want DI but no defenses...because I'm not gonna buy nonresistant defenses, I'm gonna Link substantially more Resistant Defenses to them:

 

+15 STR, Costs END to Maintain, Obvious == 8 real

+2 DCV, Costs END every phase, Invisible Power becomes Obvious (-1/2) == 5    [or 6 if you'd call DCV Inobvious to start with, but it feels like it's Invisible'

4 points for the hard to spot...I'd leave it alone just because it's easier.  And in a compound power it won't matter.

 

So the compound power is 29 active and 17 real.  29 active means I get 9/9 Resistant, where I can toss in Linked to knock it to 18.  Total?  35 points for a pretty darn nice combat boost, with no implicit Complications.  

 

I'm not saying any of these are better or worse.  DI alone has multiple effects.  Some might not be good enough...like the semi-trivial non-resistant defense increase.  3 levels of DI means you're density 8...same as steel.  So entirely appropriate to say you're solid steel...but only 3 PD?  Ehhh...  Package powers always have issues like that, so it's always worth considering unpacking them to look at different configurations.  

 

Side note:  with RAW DI, 3 levels is 12 points.  If you want to Link some Resistant Defense to that, the most you can toss on is 8 points, in whatever config you want, in order to get the full -1/2.  You can toss on more for -1/4.  By the same token, you're getting 9 active points' worth of benefits for 4 to 6 (depending on how much Reduced END you want to apply)...this can be important in a VPP or multipower.  And it's with NO Limitations.  You can play games like:

 

DI 3 levels, Costs END only to activate).  15 active.  Extra Time, Full Phase only to activate (-1/4) --> 12.  

Shrinking, 1 level, Costs END only to activate (7 active), Linked to DI --> 5.

 

 

 

 

[indy523]

On 10/21/2021 at 12:30 AM, Kevinmcc said:

,

 

  It is a power that has to be activated and as such does cost END and would have to be paid for each phase, and using the STR gained should also cost the END that additional STR generates. Saying that is costs END when most powers do cost END just does not make sense given that Cost Endurance is only applicable to powers that don't cost END in the first place.  Nor do I agree there is a perceptibility limitation. The Power clearly states it is Obvious, many powers are.

 

 

You misunderstand.  To get the benefit of say a +30 STR from Density increase you have to pay END to maintain the DI.  At 6 x 4 or 24 pts this is two points END.  Then if you use the extra 30 STR to damage someone this is another 3 end.  Since STR does not normally cost END just to have the STR this is a disadvantage so at a minimum you have to accept the +1/2 level of the limitation the poster maintains.  Furthermore, extra STR, KB resistance and PD and ED don't cost END either also they are Inobvious.  DI is obvious when used to the perceptibility is a limitation.  

 

However beyond that you will just make your player buy his STR with a limitation cost end and he will get what he wants anyways.  And he does not have to take the disadvantage of falling through the floor when he turns it on.

[Sean Waters]

On 10/21/2021 at 1:54 AM, Derek Hiemforth said:

I don't think it's overpowered.  Yes, the component pieces would cost you 9 CP.  But when they're bundled as Density Increase, they also have a bunch of downsides:

• They cost END every Phase the power is active, even if they're not used (for example, having the +5 STR costs END even if you aren't using the STR, then costs more END if you actually do use the STR).
• The increased mass is more of a problem than a help.
• They have visible power effects.
• They're not Persistent.
• etc.

If you figure the package of 9 CP worth of stuff also comes with Costs Endurance (-½) and another -½ Limitation for the combined value of extra perceptibility, extra mass, etc., then the 9 CP is knocked down to 4 CP, just like the power has.

 

It does cost END to use, true, but if you make it 0 END then it would be 6 points, and you could make it 0 END and persistent for 7 points.  The visual power effects are probably not a real issue as, if you are lifting and throwing a MAC Truck people are going to guess that you have powers anyway.

 

All you really have to contend with then is the increased mass and that is very much down to how the GM plays it.  Sure you might not be able to take the lift and you sink instantly in water but it probably isn't going to be that much of an issue unless you buy it to insane levels.  Even then if you are buying Flight as a movement power, problem solved.

 

It does seem that you are getting more for your points than you would if you bought it 'straight'.

 

While we are on the topic I don't really understand the need for the bit about permanently dense characters having to be built differently.  That is what 'Inherent' is for.

 

 

Also DI was probably underpowered in previous editions because, IIRC, the Strength boost didn't provide figured characteristics, so you were actually better off not using DI.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

The visual power effects are probably not a real issue as, if you are lifting and throwing a Mack Truck people are going to guess that you have powers anyway.

 

Pretty sure Density Increase is an "inobvious" power, so that it doesn't have big crackly obvious special effects when in use.

[unclevlad]

4 hours ago, Sean Waters said:

All you really have to contend with then is the increased mass and that is very much down to how the GM plays it.  Sure you might not be able to take the lift and you sink instantly in water but it probably isn't going to be that much of an issue unless you buy it to insane levels.  Even then if you are buying Flight as a movement power, problem solved.

 

 

Flight helps quite a bit, but

a)  you're still paying for the Flight, and it's expensive;  you're buying it from 0.

b)  YMMV but DI and Flight tend to be a contradiction, particularly with higher levels of DI.  

c)  if the DI is Always On, this doesn't help.  Want to sit in a chair?  Can the chair handle 800 pounds?  RARELY.  And that's only 2 levels.  An extra heavy duty ladder is rated at 375 pounds;  that's right around 1 level.  Your foot is pressing into the ground under the force of your body weight...and let's not talk about the force exerted running when you include a few levels of DI.  

 

You don't sink in water;  you sink just standing on soft ground.  And it doesn't take that long before you start cracking the surface of concrete with your steps.  The physical drawbacks are far more significant and frequent than you're suggesting.

 

Also:  DI is a Body Affecting Power, which by 6E1 126, makes it Obvious.  So you can't hide it when you *aren't* tossing trucks around.

 

The reason why permanently heavy characters are encouraged to buy the powers individually and take a Phys Lim is, it's better integrated at that point.  And for me?  Disadvantages are HARD to come by, so I rather like them.  And when you look at it...it's *cheaper* in most cases.  Mass Templates, 6E1 446.  2 levels of DI equivalent...18 points, but you get a 10 point Disad.  So...8 points.  Or......4 points per "level of DI."  BUT you're not paying END to have it.

 

That model holds through 5 levels...+9 points of powers, -5 points of Disad per "level."  When you get beyond that point, if you're not doing something major to mitigate it like Shrinking...5 levels of DI == x32 mass.  So something like *3 tons*.   Homes are not built for that kind of load.  No furniture.  Nothing around you.  You're going to have to keep that load off the ground except in special situations built to handle it.  That's a major limitation. 

 

So...nope.  If anything, actually, DI is *underpowered* as a power, not overpowered.  As long as the implicit Disadvantage is being treated properly, you're getting less.  If the GM ignores the mass issues?  Then it's potentially slightly overpowered, but with Costs END and Obvious?  Not very much.

 

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

Also:  DI is a Body Affecting Power, which by 6E1 126, makes it Obvious.  So you can't hide it when you *aren't* tossing trucks around.

 

I would interpret that as "you look dense by the way you affect the world" not "you glow and hum while using your power".

[Sean Waters]

39 minutes ago, unclevlad said:

 

Flight helps quite a bit, but

a)  you're still paying for the Flight, and it's expensive;  you're buying it from 0.

b)  YMMV but DI and Flight tend to be a contradiction, particularly with higher levels of DI.  

c)  if the DI is Always On, this doesn't help.  Want to sit in a chair?  Can the chair handle 800 pounds?  RARELY.  And that's only 2 levels.  An extra heavy duty ladder is rated at 375 pounds;  that's right around 1 level.  Your foot is pressing into the ground under the force of your body weight...and let's not talk about the force exerted running when you include a few levels of DI.  

 

You don't sink in water;  you sink just standing on soft ground.  And it doesn't take that long before you start cracking the surface of concrete with your steps.  The physical drawbacks are far more significant and frequent than you're suggesting.

 

Also:  DI is a Body Affecting Power, which by 6E1 126, makes it Obvious.  So you can't hide it when you *aren't* tossing trucks around.

 

The reason why permanently heavy characters are encouraged to buy the powers individually and take a Phys Lim is, it's better integrated at that point.  And for me?  Disadvantages are HARD to come by, so I rather like them.  And when you look at it...it's *cheaper* in most cases.  Mass Templates, 6E1 446.  2 levels of DI equivalent...18 points, but you get a 10 point Disad.  So...8 points.  Or......4 points per "level of DI."  BUT you're not paying END to have it.

 

That model holds through 5 levels...+9 points of powers, -5 points of Disad per "level."  When you get beyond that point, if you're not doing something major to mitigate it like Shrinking...5 levels of DI == x32 mass.  So something like *3 tons*.   Homes are not built for that kind of load.  No furniture.  Nothing around you.  You're going to have to keep that load off the ground except in special situations built to handle it.  That's a major limitation. 

 

So...nope.  If anything, actually, DI is *underpowered* as a power, not overpowered.  As long as the implicit Disadvantage is being treated properly, you're getting less.  If the GM ignores the mass issues?  Then it's potentially slightly overpowered, but with Costs END and Obvious?  Not very much.

 

 

The build I suggested, with zero End and persistent can be turned off. I probably wouldn't even bother with the persistent unless I also went for inherent. If you can turn it off your can sit down whenever you want.

 

 

 

Flight deals with all the problems of having a huge mass and it's easy to SFX, for example gravity manipulation. Almost every character spend points on movement so you might as well spend then on flight and it isn't all that expensive, especially as you would be spending those points on something similar anyway.

 

 

 

I really don't care about obvious. Enough character have unusual looks that it really doesn't matter whether it's clear when they are using powers. If you have extra limbs that technically isn't obvious because it doesn't use END but, obviously, it is.

 

 

 

If you don't look like a baseline human power visibility and obviousness doesn't matter at all. Most superheroes and villains have enough PRE everyone is already looking at them.

 

 

 

Complications, as we are apparently calling them now, don't give your more points, you are still stuck with the budget cap and I don't find them hard to come by generally. YMMV.

 

 

 

You can't count a - alright - disadvantage in the cost of a power. That's like saying that my Teleport is cheaper because I'm ugly. They are different things.

 

 

 

Sure, if you are massing tons that's going to be an issue, but, again, flight. You don't even have to really explain it as it's not real. People can't actually fly, but having reactionless flight, which it all is, solves all your in combat mass problems and out of combat just turn off the extra mass. In addition it's not like your are just buying flight to cover the problems with DI: flight is useful on it's own anyway.

 

 

 

The perma-heavy thing actually really grinds my gears. It's just unnecessary because there's already a well established mechanic that works fine. It's part of the reason the books are so long and impenetrable. Having two separate ways to do functionally the same thing is not good design.

 

 

 

The simple fact is it's cheaper to buy DI then the component parts and any issues are easily mitigated.  In fact, arguably, if you buy at least one point of persistent flight so you can keep it on while you sleep, your probably should even be getting points for the Physically Limitation because there isn't one.

[unclevlad]

If the downsides are meaningless for you...then yes, maybe it's overpowered.

 

But a GM ignoring issues like that...there's lots of other ways to do it.

And come to think...not even then.  You've got 9 points for the bonuses...but all those as separate powers would be Inobvious and Persistent.  So you can take Nonpersistent and Perceivable, as a Combined Power.  A Combined Power, where the powers have no individual limits, *should* support common mods that apply to the total active cost, rather than to each power...it minimizes the distortions implicit in the integer math.  But even without:  with Obvious and Nonpersistent, the component powers cost 7.  With 0 END, a level of DI costs 6.  2 levels of DI as components costs 12...7 for STR, 1 each for PD and ED, and 3 for the KB resist, versus...12 for DI, 0 END.  At 3 levels, -1/2 limit is simple math now, and the 27 active --> 18.  Same REAL cost, and that's what the system is considering.  

 

1 hour ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

 

I would interpret that as "you look dense by the way you affect the world" not "you glow and hum while using your power".

 

I wouldn't.  As Sean points out...what if you're flying?  It still must be casually apparent.  Altered skin appearance would do it;  you don't have to go all the way to, say, Colossus or Ben Grimm, but there needs to be something that doesn't require any interaction.

 

But what constitutes "obvious" is a huge PITA.  It's probably not practical to define a "one size fits all" definition, particularly as there's no distinction between "readily apparent" and "blatant."  Or between that the power is fundamentally self-evident like Growth, or ambiguous...DI vs. resistant defenses, for example.  Explicit (stony appearance) or implicit (sound of footprints, causiing very deep imprints in softer materials, etc. due to the mass)?  Must point to the power, or must indicate a power is active?  

 

And these should apply whether it's bought as "DI" or components reflecting "high density/unusually heavy character."

 

But doubling back:  these also relate to how the GM handles explicit or implicit negative aspects of a character...what's permitted, what's allowed to slide by (like taking away foci at least some of the time)?  Hero has become *easily* exploitable without ever getting into matters of interpretation.

[Hugh Neilson]

Wouldn't all of the components also have the Unified Power limitation?  You Drain the DI, not the individual components.

[unclevlad]

1 hour ago, Hugh Neilson said:

Wouldn't all of the components also have the Unified Power limitation?  You Drain the DI, not the individual components.

 

First, I *loathe* Unified Power in most circumstances.  I have built using it;  IIRC, an energy projector type with Blasts and Flashes.  SOMETIMES.  But quite often, it's just not worth enough.

Second:  in a Combined Power, if that's the build?  It's unified by definition.  I'd NEVER allow it.  Particularly in a build like this, where the component costs are so radically different.  "Oh, you can't drain any more PD cuz you got it all."  So you're getting a cost savings on the big component..STR...with implicitly limited risk.

 

From a system perspective, tho, you'd simply be risking the entire power by making ALL of it open to a drain of any component.  And OK, defenses are subject to the halving rule, PD and ED are universal and cheap, so a drain against them is very likely to be worthwhile.  And that's gonna bring everything down.  Same with STR;  against anyone using HTH it's a good point to attack, and it'll bring defenses down *quickly*.  And sure, DI as DI is pretty obvious, but it's much less common.  Drains against STR, PD, or ED don't require special justification, if that's part of the character's motif.

 

Also note:  if you're buying Nonpersistent and Perceivable on the components to mimic the DI, then you won't save much.  By the rules, with costs per component, and retaining the 3 levels....

 

With NP and Perc:  15/3/3/6 --> 10/2/2/4;  27 --> 18

Adding Unified, we've got -3/4, so costs go to 4/7.  15/3/3/6 --> 9/2/2/3 or 16. 

 

Even taken as a "whole power" 27 * 4/7 = 108/7 = 15 3/7.  So there you'd save 3....but increase your vulnerability in doing so.  

 

But, to be sure, you bring up a point when you buy the "DI" as separated, standalone powers.  However, this is the *cost basis* showing that DI isn't unbalanced.  If I'm buying "always on DI" as additional STR, PD, and ED, then I'm simply rolling them into the basic characteristics, not as separate aspects.  I'll let the disad carry the load.  The only thing I have to buy separately is the KB resistance.  

 

No, it's not completely clean, doing as the book suggests...but arguably, it's more like the DI is a mess because it's a package deal of component powers.  Growth's even worse here.  

[Duke Bushido]

While I thoroughly enjoy Sean's tinkering and conversations about said tinkering, this one has taken a turn that has led back to an old disgruntlement of mine about Flight not having Strength / Lift components.

 

Leaping does (did?  I can't remember how it worked in 6e; it might be different): determine your mass, deduct from your STR, use remaining STR to determine leaping distance.

DI sort of does: the "extra" STR doesn't increase leaping, etc-- almost as if it's to offset your additional mass (and there is the damage boost, but....)

Clinging has STR ratings.  Even Teleport has a sort of "strength limit" via mass carried, what you can and can't take, etc, and it is independent of the character's own STR.

 

Not flight.

 

1" of flight can move a one-kilogram character no further, faster, or more easily than it can move a 10,000 kilogram character.

 

 

Yeah; I get that it's "a power of flight tailored for that character."  Which is probably why that poor pixie is paying the same END for his flight as is Goliath, the gigantic aeronaut.  

No; I have never found a solution that satisfies me.  It still feels hinky, though.

[schir1964]

3 hours ago, Duke Bushido said:

... 1" of flight can move a one-kilogram character no further, faster, or more easily than it can move a 10,000 kilogram character. ...

I've never really thought about this before... hmmm...

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

 

Yeah; I get that it's "a power of flight tailored for that character."  Which is probably why that poor pixie is paying the same END for his flight as is Goliath, the gigantic aeronaut.  

No; I have never found a solution that satisfies me. 

 

 

I had a GM once that tried to apply all these physics and measurement stuff.  Some poor guy built a shrinking character, and the GM reduced his STR and movement proportional to size decrease.  Why this cost points to buy with such severe penalties, nobody could explain.  Ultimately you shrug at it because to do otherwise is not only too much work, but not fun and does not simulate the setting or genre.