Help with Paralysis and Sleep Poissons for 5th edition

[Daniel Pelletier]

Hello,

 

Its been years since I've played hero system but we started up a game of fantasy hero.  One of the players wants to make a Paralysis and a sleep position.  I was wondering if anyone could make some suggestions as to what power to use to build these on.  I'm trying to keep the active points to around 30 points.  We are using the 5th edition rules.  Thanks for any help.

[Duke Bushido]

The most popular paralysis builds seem to center around Entangle and "based on ECV" or "Based on CON" variants.

 

Sleep potion is going to a lot harder-- or easier, depending on how important it is to you that follow the letter of the law.

 

Why?  Because HERO has no rules or write-ups for the sleep condition.  The closest mechanic for sleeping in HERO is unconsciousness, which isn't the same, and which is generally achieve through damage.  Newer editions have some ideas on sleep deprivation, but again-- nothing specifically statted up to represent the sleep condition itself.  (For what it's worth, I have zero problem with this).

 

When sleep, or some aspect of sleep or sleep deprivation are particularly important to a specific character, that character will typically have a Disadvantage / Complication addressing the exact problem: "Narcolepsy.  Falls asleep 8-; check every two hours" or something like that.

 

So with regards to making someone go to sleep, you're kind of on your own.    

 

(Be prepared for lots of suggestions about "let's look at what you lose when being asleep:  -10 to PER Rolls" and such as that. I have a feeling this is going to be one of those kinds of topics.     )

 

 

[LoneWolf]

Entangle with based on ego combat value(+1) and works against STR not Ego(+1/4).  At 30 active cost you can afford 1d6 and 1 DEF.  For 34 points you can go up to 1d6 DEF 2, which will usually be enough to affect most normal for a short time.   56 active points puts it to 2d6 DEF 3 which is going to be a lot more effective. 6th edition has a lot better rules for this. 

[Sketchpad]

For Sleep, what about a Transform based on CON?

[Christopher R Taylor]

Transformation can put someone to sleep for x time or until y conditions are met.  But probably just a Stun Suppress with charges that have a duration equal to what you want the potion to accomplish.  While losing Stun is usually associated with pain, it can be painless and simply mean a loss of consciousness.  Putting someone at 0 STN leaves them sort of helpless and basically aware of their surroundings so you'll want lower than -10.

 

Oh, as I recall 5th edition Suppress had an interesting mechanic where if you bought Constant on it, then it kept going off over and over on your phase until you stopped paying END or the continuing charge was expended.  This could put someone very deep into sleep so that it might take hours to wake up.

[Mr. R]

When I did PFRPG set, one spell I needed to convert was Cloud of Slumber

 

 

Quote

113 Cloud of Slumber: Major Transform 7d6, Costs END Only To Activate (+¼), Uncontrolled (+½), Area Of Effect (2" radius; +¾), Continuous (+1) (367 Active Points); Limited Power Power loses about half of its effectiveness (Con roll negates whole effect; -1), Spell (-½), Incantations (-¼), Limited Power Power loses about a fourth of its effectiveness (Unified; -¼), Limited Range (-¼) 34

Notes: Lasts 2 minutes
 

 

 

Get rid of the AE, and make use charges and a bunch of other potion limitations and you have something like a 10D6 Transform (all or Nothing) Awake to asleep.  Yes it is a powerful effect but remember a sleeping person is essentially helpless.  Take those YouTube videos where people draw on someone's face while asleep and imagine Hannibal Lector having you like that?  Yeah, scarry!   

 

Why 10d6?  Because even at average rolls, this gives you 35 pts effect, more than enough to get a 2x body effect!

[Grailknight]

There 's three approaches to this and the way I'd build it depends on how you want them to work, more specifically how you want the conditions to end without outside interference.

 

If you want the effects to last for an approximate time period, use Drain. Drain SPD for Paralysis and STUN for Sleep. You can move the recovery down the Time chart to get the time you want and it's far more reliable. That said, if you want the targets to have a chance to recover in a combat timeframe, you'll need to use method 2. Aid/Healing will negate this effect.

 

This method uses Entangle as others have previously stated. Usually this involves making the Entangle work against a Characteristic other than STR such as CON or EGO but I saw a nasty variant of a normal Entangle with Invisible Effects that had stops Sight and Mental Sense Groups(target only) in one Psi-Wars scenario I played in. Harder to balance this method, because some targets may snicker at the attack while others might need help have any chance to escape. Attacking the Entangle or Dispel will break this effect 

 

Finally you can use Transform. It works but tends to be the most expensive option. You have to define a method to break this as you'll probably want something other than just waiting it out( although a Sleeping Beauty type scenario works here) 

 

And to tie it all up, you probably want to give each of these a condition that ends the effect other than another Power. Transform has rules for its healing method but the others may have a Limitation added for an antidote or a mild electric shock to break the effect.

 

[schir1964]

Would Standard Effect on the Dice be appropriate for this?

[Yes]

I have a Final Fantasy campaign and I am trying to make Agrais Oak woods Holy Sword attack "stasis sword" in the Hero system 5 ED, it is a ranged area of effect damage that has a chance to paralyze . I am having a hard time making the paralyze effect, any suggestions? 

[Christopher R Taylor]

As mentioned above the usual way to build paralysis is to buy entangle that works on another Characteristics than Strength such as Constitution or Ego.  This traps someone until they can break it using their CON or EGO.

[HeroGM]

I might do a Sleep potions as a Drain Stun & End.

[Duke Bushido]

Of all the options given- and it is really hard for me to say this, given its use in the past (lookin at you, 4e everything)- I have to support the Transformation option.

 

As I said before, HERO doesnt really have a sleep mechanic, making T-form attractive simply because T-form doesnt need a mechanic: it changes what you are, period.  In this case, it changes "alert and peppy this guy" into "sleeping this guy."

 

I dont much care for the supress Characteristic X or Drain Characteristic Y approach because, again, there is no sleep mechanic, so there are no Characterisitcs related to being awake or asleep.  Lowering Characteristica is a _damage_ mechanic, and the not-awake condition that results from Characterisitc loss is body-throwing-everything-that-is-left-into-the-preservation-of-homeostasis unconsciousness, which is miles away from restful, restorative, refreshing sleep.

 

Further, I am pretty certain that all of the reasons that it is easier to kill a sleeping person are tied to his lack of perception, lack of movement, and lowered defenses, and all the time you can take lining up your called shot, and definitely not because his STUN and END are each thirty points lower that usual.

 

If you want to use unciousness to simulate sleep, drain BODY.  There is a point where reduced BODY results in unconscioisness, and as a bonus, you can kill them with a popsicle stick, should that be your goal.  Granted, Killing Attack is cheaper, and results in draining both BOFY _and_ STUN....  And just like Drain, Killing Attack can get either of those to a point where unconsciousness will happen, target willing or not. 

 

Seriously: the more I watch the discussion and the more I think about, this is one of those really unusual occasions where Transform really makes the most sense to me.

 

 

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

Lowering Characteristica is a _damage_ mechanic, and the not-awake condition that results from Characterisitc loss is body-throwing-everything-that-is-left-into-the-preservation-of-homeostasis unconsciousness, which is miles away from restful, restorative, refreshing sleep.

 

This seems like it presumes special effect.  If I create a spell that drains STUN to represent sleep, then it represents sleep; nothing about stun necessarily has to be pain and damage.  However, I agree that mechanically, transform is going to act more like sleep which is a more binary state: awake or asleep.

[Duke Bushido]

2 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

 

This seems like it presumes special effect.  If I create a spell that drains STUN to represent sleep, then it represents sleep; nothing about stun necessarily has to be pain and damage.  However, I agree that mechanically, transform is going to act more like sleep which is a more binary state: awake or asleep.

 

 

I tried to rep that, but apparently I'm all out.  I agree that sleep is more a binary condition.

 

However, assuming that lower STUN makes it much easier to kill someone / move them into option land is hardly a presumption of a special effect: that's the way the Characteristics work: if you Drain Characteristics, you get lower characteristics.  The end results of lowering damage-soaking characteristics is that you are able to survive considerably less damage.  It is entirely possible (but ridiculously expensive) to Drain: Body or even Drain: Stun someone to death, precisely because they are your damage-surviving characteristics.  Special Effects not required.

 

 

[Christopher R Taylor]

Well, here's what I mean by presuming special effects: lowering a characteristic is merely lowering a characteristic, that doesn' mean its damage, or anything else.  Its just a mechanic, which you could interpret as "consciousness levels" if you wished as the special effect.  You can't actually drain someone's stun to death, just to a very, very long recovery time.  But that could simply be considered "a very deep sleep."

[Duke Bushido]

 

 

 

 

 

 

17 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

Well, here's what I mean by presuming special effects: lowering a characteristic is merely lowering a characteristic, that doesn' mean its damage, or anything else.  Its just a mechanic, which you could interpret as "consciousness levels" if you wished as the special effect.  You can't actually drain someone's stun to death, just to a very, very long recovery time.  But that could simply be considered "a very deep sleep."

 

Ah; I see where you're going.

 

I have been using a House Rule for so long I forgot it wasn't a book rule:

 

Run out of END, burn STUN.  Run below negative STUN, burn BODY.

 

Frankly, it's called "option land."  That's my option. 

 

Still, using T-form to induce "sleep" leaves them full STUN to take a pinata-style beating long before "well, this sleep is going to last a few months."   Draining STUN to simulate sleep means I can whack them into option land with a single strike of a broom handle.

 

 

 

 

[archer]

I'd also consider that many times in fantasy literature, "sleep" potions act more like putting someone into a coma than putting them "to sleep". If that's the idea, Transform is definitely a better fit than a Drain in my opinion.

 

You could slip someone a coma potion, load them onto the back of a donkey, and transport them to another city to turn them in for the bounty without them waking up.

 

Of course the person in question would need to drink enough of it rather than just a sip. And the right person would need to drink it rather than his girlfriend. And he'd really need to be alone because going into a coma would definitely tip off his drinking buddies that something was up. And the PC's would need to be close enough to observe him drink it then be the first person to find him lying unconscious.

 

Just setting up the right circumstances is probably much more difficult than bopping him on the head then tying him up.  

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

I have been using a House Rule for so long I forgot it wasn't a book rule

 

It is a book rule that you can burn enough END to use STN, but that doesn't mean that you can kill someone by draining enough STUN from them.  It means that if they use enough END they can eventually knock themselves out, because STN can go infinitely negative.  END cannot.

[Grailknight]

Although I doubt it, Duke, it's possible you may have got that from Fuzion.

 

It had an addition Stat for Hit Points equal to your STUN. You took 1 hp per 10 Stun taken and if you ran out of hp then you took Body. Not immediately deadly, but if you had multiple fights in a short period you could be in rough shape.

[Duke Bushido]

3 hours ago, Grailknight said:

Although I doubt it, Duke, it's possible you may have got that from Fuzion.

 

It had an addition Stat for Hit Points equal to your STUN. You took 1 hp per 10 Stun taken and if you ran out of hp then you took Body. Not immediately deadly, but if you had multiple fights in a short period you could be in rough shape.

 

 

It's quite possible; I _did_ play a good bit of BGC back in the day.  I don't know precisely the inspiration for it, but it was put in place to stop things like "Okay, a three always wins.  I am going to make my EGO (or CON or whatever) roll to push myself up to a 200 STR so I can catch this comet / building / deadly GM glare.  So I'll be unconscious for six weeks.  Big whoop."

 

Look back at the 1 and 2e rules (which I still use): there weren't really any limiting factors on Pushing except for your END, and of course, you could burn STUN as END....

 

At -31 Stun, you enter "option land."  It's worth noting that characters who are at or below 0 stun will take recoveries on their action-- 

 

Quote

Characters who are Knocked Out will take recoveries until his STUN total is greater than 0. As soon as the Character has a positive STUN total he is considered awake. When a character is Knocked Out his body puts its entire energy reserve into waking the character up.

 

 

So Draining STUN to create sleep means kicking the target into a series of recoveries as he struggles to regain a state of attentiveness.

 

That's not sleep.   I am not presuming a special effect here: I am reading the mechanic, period, and noting that what the mechanic describes is not only not a part of sleep (as a sleepy person has taken no damage-- er, STUN reduction, if we are all going to pretend that being KTFO and staying up into the wee hours to finish a book have the exact same effect on the body).

 

Actually, let me go back just a bit to my problem with this idea:

 

Quote

Stun Pips (STUN)• This characteristic represents how much damage a character can take before being knocked out.

 

 

STUN is not defined as a measurement of the threshold point between being asleep and being awake.  It is defined specifically as a damage-resisting characteristic.  This is done by stating flatly that STUN is lost via damage, and when a character has taken more damage than he is able to shrug off, he will be knocked out.  While conversationally we make the words interchangeable, there is an arc of difference biologically between being unconscious and being asleep-- so much difference that we use "unconscious" as a hyperbolic metaphor (HA!  I accidentally type "methaphor"  Talk about not being sleep!    ) for unusually deep sleep.

 

Anyway, backing up.

 

At -31 STUN, the character enters the land of option, where the GM decides how often he make make recoveries.

 

All I did was to House Rule that negative Original Stun Value, you burned BODY in place of STUN.   Again, I can't squarely tell you that it was appropriate from one source or another, but I can tell you that it was because for the edition I use-- for the first five editions of the game-- STUN was a function of the BODY characteristic.  There is some validity to the idea that with a more robust and durable physique, you can soak a bit more abuse, after all.  It also follows-- to me, anyway-- that at the point where you can't take anymore, the durable physique from which are drawing will begin to suffer.

 

It certainly makes far more sense than does "you can actually whack on them forever with a broomhandle-- seriously!  _Forever_!-- and not really hurt them at all.  So long as you avoid major organs and don't break bones, there is no actual limit to the amount of pain they can absorb!  It's neat!"  Even if you don't want to accept that "yeah, at some point the tissue itself is going to break down (and it will, and it does), but long before that, there are going to be some psychoses coming to the surface (and again: it will, and it does).  Of course, HERO doesn't have stats for Psychosis, at least not until 4e's Horror HERO appropriated Sanity from C'Thuluh, and then never ever again.

 

So I worked with what I had: a reasonable understanding of biology and pointers from the rules that STUN and BODY were tied together in some not-completely-defined way.

 

 

I'd like to think that is mostly where the house rule came from, but it's quite possible that having used a similar Fuzion mechanic in BGC made me more receptive to the idea; I can't say for certain either way. 

 

Anyway, getting back to STUN being defined as "not damage."  This is not me choosing an SFX.  This is the raw mechanic: a measure of a the ability to withstand a certain kind of damage.  if my target has 30 STUN and I can reliably deliver 6 STUN per blow, I have to hit him _eleven times_ to take him into option land.  If his STUN has been drained away to -20 to induce "sleep," then I have to hit him three times to put him into option land.  Again: there is not a special effect involved: the _only_ thing I am doing is using the STUN mechanic precisely as it is laid out in the rules: reducing it to the point that he may not wake up until he's had a couple of birthdays.  The fact that it was reduced because we wanted to pretend that being knocked out was the same as sleeping doesn't change the fact that he no longer has his normal STUN available for _any other purpose_ other than being not asleep: there is only one STUN characteristic.  Wanting to pretend it works an entirely different way in this one special instance does not prevent it from causing serious problems for all other instances of how STUN might be delivered.

 

 

As far as the sleep thing goes:  I don't think any of us would ever get any rest at all if we started recovering as soon as we dropped out and woke back up upon reaching-- well, since we took no damage, we'd never actually get to sleep, but let's pretend that we took "tiredness damage" that took us to 0 STUN, or even -2 STUN.  We spend our next (and every) Phase taking a recovery, and if you've got a REC:3, you're popping back awake your next Phase.  If you've got a REC:1 and voluntarily reduce your speed to 1 (and I'm not certain that's viable outside of GM fiat, given the rules stating that you _will_ do nothing but take recoveries, which-- at least to me-- suggests that you're not going to pass up the chance to take an extra one, but let's assume GM fiat says you can reduce your SPD to 1 when knocked out), then the very best that you can hope for-- SPD:1, REC:1, STUN:-2, is thirty-six seconds of sleep before you are once again bright-eyed and bushy tailed.

 

This is _not_ an SFX issue.  This is _nothing_ but straight-up how the mechanics are defined in the rules and how they work mathematically.  This math is so simple that I didn't even need to invoke Hugh for fact and figure checking. 

 

 

It is for the above listed reasons-- and I am keeping all the personal ones out of this-- but for those purely game-mechanical reasons that I personally find the best two valid options for forcing someone to sleep are either the creation of an entirely new characteristic for tracking "be awake" energy and "need sleep" energy-- which is just adding more complexity, more cost-- loads more humor potential; I can't deny that  , and probably a bit of confusion about how that would work--

 

or use T-form-- or even Mind Control!  I am _perfectly fine_ with Mind Control for this.  Given my general dislike of T-form unless there is absolutely no other way to do a thing (4e really burned me out on T-form), I would probably prefer Mind Control, but _still_, I find T-form: awake person to asleep person to be far more appropriate to simulate any sort of "put them to sleep" ability.  It even has its own recovery mechanic built-in, so we don't have to worry about those pesky Recoveries every Phase.  Best of all: I am still going to wear myself out trying to beat them into a coma, because they still have all their STUN available.

 

 

Sure; it's just me.  I can accept that.  I may be the only guy unwilling to pretend that nothing in the way STUN works per the mechanics precludes it being used to put someone into a gentle and restorative sleep and does not impede their ability to withstand damage in any way, but I have to level with you folks:  I really have given this some thought  (because my realization that there isn't really an obvious way to do this in HERO), as everything above may suggest-- I have given this a _lot_ of thought, far more thought than I am generally willing to sink into answering a question for someone who's final decision has zero affect on my game---   and targeting STUN to simulate sleep just has way too many problems, and requires bending way more rules and mechanics that does either T-form: awake to asleep of Mind Control: Go to sleep!.  I am going to _remain_ the person who disagrees-- respectfully, of course, because I like you guys so much that I keep coming back, and ultimately, because it doesn't affect me or my games in the slightest...  No; this time it kind of did: I now know how I would build a Sleep potion, if it ever comes up in my games, so thank all of you for that.     , but I am going to remain the dissenting opinion regarding Drain:STUN as being any sort of acceptable for the desired result.

 

 

Thanks to all for the inspiration. 
 

 

[Chris Goodwin]

STUN and the game mechanic of unconsciousness don't appear to have anything to do with sleep.  I can't see reducing a target's STUN being a valid mechanic to represent putting someone to sleep.  

 

Duke is right in that the rules don't say much about sleep or being asleep, but they should.  If they did 40 years ago, then we wouldn't be having this conversation right now.  

 

There are a few places in the rules where they are differentiated; namely, 6e1 under "Unconscious and Sleeping Minds".  They have some similarities, but this paragraph states how they differ mentally at least.  

 

Pretty much everything in the rules that refers to a sleeping character refers to "unconscious or asleep," or "Knocked Out or asleep," or similar.  If they were the same, there wouldn't be a need to refer to them like that in multiple places.  

 

On the other hand, a "sleep spell" or sleeping potion doesn't have to actually put someone to sleep; it might in reality be a spell or ability to Knock Out (game mechanic) a character.  There are a couple of "sleep" sample powers in 6e1 that reduce the target's STUN.  

 

So, the first thing you need to do when defining your sleep spell or potion, is does it force the target to fall asleep or does it reduce their STUN to 0 or below?  Is a "combat forceful sleep inducer" or a spell to help you get better rest at night?

 

Edit to add:  I'm with Duke also in that a sleepytime sleep spell should use Mind Control or Transform.  

 

Edit 2:  APG2 p. 112 talks a lot more about sleep.  

[Christopher R Taylor]

I figure unconscious and asleep are functionally equivalent as far as game mechanics are concerned, most sleep spells in Hero in the past Grimoires has been mind control or stun based.  While Transform feels like it gives a more accurate effect, its typically built for much longer-term effects than "Dozes off"

[Chris Goodwin]

STUN and Knocked Out have their own mechanical baggage regarding interaction with other rules.  Post-12 Recoveries, negative Stun values and recovery time... on the sleeping side, Lightsleep and Life Support: Does Not Sleep.  Plus some Mental Powers work differently based on whether the target is asleep or unconscious.  

 

About the only thing they have in common is that both mean the character is DCV 0, can't move, can't fight, and is considered Surprised (takes 2x STUN) when attacked.  Otherwise they're not the same.  

[Duke Bushido]

19 minutes ago, Chris Goodwin said:

 

About the only thing they have in common is that both mean the character is DCV 0, can't move, can't fight, and is considered Surprised (takes 2x STUN) when attacked.  Otherwise they're not the same.  

 

 

Tangential question:

 

Now that CV is essentially a Primary Characteristic, can we just Drain that? 

 

[Hugh Neilson]

CV can be Drained in 6e.

 

So having designed their venom, let's remember that these poissons should also have Water Breathing, "Cannot breathe air", Swimming, sell back their walking (maybe leave a meter for flopping around?) and perhaps some fluency in French.

 

ADDITION:

 

30 AP will be challenging to achieve effects this significant.  Perhaps a Damage over Time model - he's been affected by the Sleep potion and will [lose STUN; gain Transform points; whatever mechanic you have chosen] every [segment/phase/turn] until he passes out.

 

Actually, what about Change Environment?  We can have a one-target CE which forces a DEX roll to avoid falling over - so why not an EGO roll to avoid falling asleep, or a CON roll to avoid paralysis?