Conan was a thug

[assault]

I'm overthinking Swords and Sorcery again. This time I'm stressing about characters that are pirates and bandits.

 

While it doesn't appear in actual Conan stories, it's stated that a fair bit of his career was spent doing morally reprehensible things.

 

Essentially he was the kind of person that would be a villain in a more morally focused game 

 

Actually that is interesting  A lot of games could be about fighting Conan types 

[Tjack]

   You’re right, Conan was a pirate and a thief. He bedded women against their will, because during the night they would come to know what a real man he was and fall in love with him.  And later “He became a King by his own hand.” In case you didn’t know that means he lead an army, killed the previous ruler and put the still warm crown on his own head. 
    By the standards of the fictional Hyborian age that means he was an honorable man.  Hell, by the standards of the late ‘20’s early ‘30’s when Robert E. Howard created him the heroes of the age were what we now call “Robber Barons, and explorers cutting swaths through Africa and South America to bring civilization to the natives whether they wanted it or not.

  Cowboys were ignorant violent itinerant laborers who slaughtered the buffaloes and weren’t exactly nice to the Native-Americans they met along the way.

    Role playing games aren’t about what actually happened.  For that you have to watch the History Channel.  Disney’s animated movies are full of horrors when you look too closely at them. Beauty & the Beast was a story told to little French girls about how to charm an abusive violent husband and the less said about the real Pocahontas the better.

   This is fantasy time, “Don’t dream it, be it.” Relax, and take the advice of that sage thinker Austin Powers “You shouldn’t try to think about this stuff too much, and just have fun.”  Pax.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Yeah, but he was an entertaining thug

[Alcamtar]

Cowboys were not more violent than anyone else. Most of them ordinary people, peaceful and just trying to find their own space and make a future for their children.

 

But wherever people gather there's always a certain unruly element. Whenever you gather a bunch of unmarried men they'll tend to be especially unruly. Women tend to be a civilizing influence.

 

In the old west we saw this in mining towns, lumber camps, railroad towns, ranch houses, etc. Men get to drinking and gambling and brawling out of boredom and restlessness and trouble ensues.

 

The problem we have in RPGs is that it's not interesting to play peaceful family people doing their job every day. What's interesting is when you have to strive and fight; but for the most part, those who live by the sword are already engaged in questionable activities. Either that or they're living in a crazy frontier area, although those crazy frontiers are not sustainable for very long, they tend to be short-lived transitional periods.

[assault]

Or they are defending their communities - but that implies something worth defending.

A partial alternative to the violently anti-social approach is the picaresque. Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser are examples of this. Their anti-social activities are located within a broadly comedic/satirical context, not deadpan murderousness.

As far as "it's just fantasy" goes - it's fair to ask "which fantasies?". I would rather do better than "violent misogynist thugs of Bore".

Kill the murder hobos. Don't be them.

[Lord Liaden]

I can't recall a story in which Conan ever raped a woman. I do recall a few in which he had the opportunity, but didn't; and more in which he went out of his way to protect a woman.

 

Conan is a classic anti-hero. He's definitely out for himself. He'll steal from those with wealth, betray those who are treacherous, and kill in a fight without hesitation or remorse. But he always kept his word, and any agreement he made. He never hurt weak or helpless people. The king he took his throne from was a generally-hated fool who grew jealous of Conan's popularity with his troops, and tried to have him imprisoned. As a king Conan was a fair and even-handed ruler who took his responsibility to his subjects seriously.

 

As robber-barons go, Conan was better than most.

[Duke Bushido]

Agreed with LL.

 

I always liked Conan specifically because he was a cut above his stereotype.

 

Violent?  Yes.  Murderous?  Yes.  Barbaric?  It's in his name.  But "on a broad scale" does not mean "indiscriminately," and- admitting I cant remember everything- I can't at the moment think of an incident that could be considered unjustified.

 

Specifically because of Conan, most of rare fantasy characters are "noble barbarians," even the more tongue-in-cheek Koloth the Virile. (Yes, if you remember that thread, that is /was a real character that I played for quite some time.)

 

 

 

[assault]

The unjustified stuff happened off-screen of course. 

 

It's great to imagine being a pirate, except for the whole robbing and potentially murdering innocent people. So you skip over that bit for the sake of the story.

 

On anti-heroes: my favourite kind is the literal opposite of a hero. If a hero is strong, brave and honourable, an anti-hero is weak, cowardly and sneaky. Aside from their own merits, they make good foils for traditional heroes. (In RPG terms, they make good Rogues and Spellcasters.)

The "modern" anti-hero is essentially a villain who fights bigger villains. It's been done. But that is irrelevant to Pulp Fantasy - because back then it hadn't been done to death.

[Lord Liaden]

A more modern example of an anti-hero is Clint Eastwood's "Man with No Name" from his "spaghetti Westerns" with director Sergio Leone. Like Conan, selfishly motivated, but still ethically and morally superior to most of his opponents, and one who did bring about some good, even if that wasn't his main concern.

[Tjack]

   Don’t get me wrong, I like the Conan novels and Westerns and all that stuff. I was just trying to say that those genres shouldn’t be judged by real world standards of behavior.   And Conan’s (or whatever Hero) kissing a resisting princess (or whatever woman) until she melts In his arms and falls for him is a trope responsible for a lot of crappy learned behavior by men for a long time.  “Your lips say no, but your heart says yes!”  “No dips#it, NO MEANS NO!”

[Lord Liaden]

Yeah, in Howard's stories Conan usually side stepped that issue, because by the time he got around to ravishing a woman she was so impressed by his barbarian manliness that she was more than ready for it.

 

Howard's depiction of barbarism as a more "natural" and less "degenerate" state than civilization certainly doesn't bear up under historical scrutiny, but it's so central to his stories that it became a common fictional trope. Probably a continuation of the Romantic concept of the "noble savage."

[Lord Liaden]

15 hours ago, assault said:

I'm overthinking Swords and Sorcery again. This time I'm stressing about characters that are pirates and bandits.

 

While it doesn't appear in actual Conan stories, it's stated that a fair bit of his career was spent doing morally reprehensible things.

 

Essentially he was the kind of person that would be a villain in a more morally focused game 

 

Actually that is interesting  A lot of games could be about fighting Conan types 

 

When you think about it, the single greatest conqueror in human history was a literal barbarian from a culture of professional raiders -- Genghis Khan. He was from all accounts a great military leader and a capable ruler, with a knack for picking the most competent and loyal people for positions of authority, even from among his defeated foes. But he was also utterly ruthless in attaining his goals, leaving a trail of death and destruction practically unrivaled before the modern era.

[SCUBA Hero]

7 hours ago, assault said:

The unjustified stuff happened off-screen of course. 

 

It's great to imagine being a pirate, except for the whole robbing and potentially murdering innocent people. So you skip over that bit for the sake of the story.

 

Like the Dread Pirates Roberts.

7 hours ago, Lord Liaden said:

I can't recall a story in which Conan ever raped a woman. I do recall a few in which he had the opportunity, but didn't; and more in which he went out of his way to protect a woman.

 

I don't remember which book it was in - Conan was owed 100 gold pieces (don't remember the details), had a woman count it out for him, and when she was complete said (paraphrasing) 'Very good.  You hid it so well that almost no one could tell that you counted five of them twice.  Five gold is a heavy price for a woman, but I'll pay it.'  And he raped her.

[assault]

13 minutes ago, SCUBA Hero said:

I don't remember which book it was in - Conan was owed 100 gold pieces (don't remember the details), had a woman count it out for him, and when she was complete said (paraphrasing) 'Very good.  You hid it so well that almost no one could tell that you counted five of them twice.  Five gold is a heavy price for a woman, but I'll pay it.'  And he raped her.

 

Not a Howard story, unless I'm mistaken. Later pastiches did all kinds of horrible things to his characterization.

[assault]

I just checked: the first Fafhrd/Gray Mouser story was published in 1939 in a Pulp magazine. That qualifies them as Pulp Fantasy, which is a useful extension to the body of work that that term would cover.

Not that I have anything in mind.

I still need to read/reread a lot of Clark Ashton Smith, since it contains more detail on spell casting than Howard's stories.

[SCUBA Hero]

21 hours ago, assault said:

 

Not a Howard story, unless I'm mistaken. Later pastiches did all kinds of horrible things to his characterization.

 

Could well be.  I read it maybe 40 years ago; don't remember the author.

[archer]

In the books to the best of my memory, Conan would invoke the name of Bel, god of thieves, to help him in his endeavors (though I've read non-Howard books about Conan and a ton of Conan comic books so I could be mistaken.)

 

When was in Zamora, he was explicitly a thief.

 

When he was in the south around Amazon, he explicitly became a pirate.

[Lord Liaden]

I remember in "Queen of the Black Coast," Conan telling Belit that he stayed out of the gods' way, and expected them to stay out of his. He accepted the existence of many gods and "wouldn't tread on their shadow," but rarely prayed to any of them over his life, even his people's god, Crom. He put more trust in his sword than any god.

[Lord Liaden]

Along the lines of Conan's treatment of women, it strikes me that his conduct is actually similar to the males depicted in many popular romance novels aimed at women, from the classic Harlequin Romance "bodice rippers" to the recent Fifty Shades... series. Despite how genuinely women want respect and to not be abused by men, there's a part of many of them that still finds that scenario exciting, at least as a fantasy. I suspect that falls into the same category as people enjoying horror books and films. We wouldn't really want to be stalked by a serial killer or mad slasher, but as a fantasy we can vicariously enjoy the thrill without having to deal with the consequences in real life.

 

Nonetheless, I once observed to a close lady friend of mine that women always say they want nice guys, but also seem to want them to act like barbarians. She replied, "We do want men to act like barbarians. When we're ready for you to act like barbarians."

 

I do kinda wish more women would let us know when that is.

 

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

And Conan’s (or whatever Hero) kissing a resisting princess (or whatever woman) until she melts In his arms and falls for him is a trope responsible for a lot of crappy learned behavior by men for a long time.

 

I am always extremely skeptical of this alleged powerful mind-controlling impact of stories over people's behavior in culture.  Much more accurately it works like this: books are written by people who reflect the worldview and mindset of the world they live in, rather than the opposite.  Also, as shocking as this might seem and as others have pointed out, there is a small part of at least some (many?) women who do actually like this kind of thing and find it exciting to be "conquered" or "overpowered".  If you think I'm making this up, read a few of your wife's time traveling woman romances or bodice rippers and see how it plays out.

 

Its not from books we get these inclinations and cruelties.  The bad comes from inside the house from people warping and abusing good things into bad.  I mean, look at the world today, every few months some major voice in the MeToo movement, some big male feminist is revealed to have been molesting and raping women in his staff regularly,  Was he reading too much Conan?

[Duke Bushido]

On 3/5/2022 at 12:57 PM, Christopher R Taylor said:

.  Much more accurately it works like this: books are written by people who reflect the worldview and mindset of the world they live in, rather than the opposite.  

 

 

 

Thank you!

 

 

I mean, it's the "violence is caused by video games" argument.

 

In the beginning, all was peace and tranquility....  Then, into this perfect world, came the one they called "Pong," and Eden was lost... forever....

 

 

[Vondy]

On 3/2/2022 at 8:39 AM, assault said:

The unjustified stuff happened off-screen of course. 

 

 

Note: What follows only applies to Howard's stories. Other people depict him as doing all manner of things... though John Maddux Roberts' pastiches are probably the most Howard-esque and truest to Conan the Character (TM).

 

Did it? In a book, if it happened "off screen" and wasn't specifically referenced in prose, it didn't necessarily happen. The reader may assume such things happened, or infer them from hints in the text, but the specifics and extent will always be a matter of subjective reader interpretation. I would find it reasonable to infer that Conan robbed and murdered people for their loot (he was, after all, a pirate and thief), but we have specific examples in text where he did not rape a women when he had the chance, and one case in specific, where a woman basically complains to him that he didn't do so! As such, it would be fair for most readers to infer that rape is not Conan's modus operandi and that he doesn't, generally speaking, mistreat women. Condescend to them, yes! But being a sexist pig does not automatically make one a rapist. The one contrary case we see is in The Frost Giant's Daughter, which occurred when he was but a youth, and is written in a surreal maybe-it-never-happened fever dream motif, meaning it may have all been in his cold-cocked head, or not. We don't know and neither did he! I suppose its possible, but I think its a stretch to just throw that out there as a given when he is otherwise depicted as being a benevolently asinine sexist who looks askance at men who act that way.

[Mr. R]

On 3/2/2022 at 1:10 PM, Lord Liaden said:

A more modern example of an anti-hero is Clint Eastwood's "Man with No Name" from his "spaghetti Westerns" with director Sergio Leone. Like Conan, selfishly motivated, but still ethically and morally superior to most of his opponents, and one who did bring about some good, even if that wasn't his main concern.

 

 

This makes me think of Ocean's Eleven.  They are all crooks, thieves and liars.  The only reason we root for them is that the guy they are stealing from is a total rat- bas%$#d!

[Mr. R]

I also remember a What If comic where Conan is sent to Modern New York.  He starts as a street thief, becomes a gang leader and eventually tussles with Captain America.  His only redeeming feature is his code of honor.  Otherwise, he's a thug.  Place him in a Champions Campaign and play him as written and soon you players will be hunting him down.

 

 

PS if you wonder how Conan fared against CA, well it was a draw.  Conan left him badly injured, but didn't kill him as a nod to a fellow warrior.

 

PPS the comic ends with Cap appealing to the better side of Conan.  Will he redeem himself? (If Hawkeye can, so can he!)

[Alcamtar]

I think what makes Conan tolerable is he is essentially a Robin Hood type character: he mostly preys on corrupt sorcerers, nobles, and other neer-do-wells. But he is honorable towards women; in Beyond the Black River he is protective of the settlers; when there are two sides he almost always ends up on the right one. I don't recall him ever preying on ordinary people. On the other hand he doesn't give his unjust gains to the poor either; he just takes them from other people who don't deserve them either. He's also a mercenary and a lot of what he does is either fulfilling a contract, or climbing the ambition ladder. Again not the most honorable profession, but he pursues it in a generally honorable fashion. When serving a good Lord or Lady he's loyal, and twin serving a wolf he follows the wolf's code. Basically he double crosses those who double cross him, he baits them into it often enough but their own corruption is always their downfall. You root for him because you know he's not going to cause much collateral damage among innocent people, but he's going to ruthlessly clear out everyone else who is similar to himself. And really as Lords go he wouldn't be such a bad one because he's relatively benevolent and disinterested, he just wants to be top dog but has little interest in throwing his weight around, or indulging in foul degeneracies.