New title be worked on at Tiger Paw Press

[assault]

20 hours ago, Lord Liaden said:

I do think the trauma of their father being killed in front of them would be sufficient to motivate anyone to change the direction of their lives; but Neutron's stated direction seemed rather vague, and more based in ego than in any logical viewpoint.

For a supervillain, "more based in ego than in any logical viewpoint" is perfectly sound.

They're not exactly the most stable bunch, and the exceptions should be - exceptions.

 

[Mr. R]

22 hours ago, Lord Liaden said:

The Stronghold Files version of Neutron is described as having had a 200 pt. VPP only for electro-magnetic effects, when he was in his prime. It was undoubtedly intended to fit him for a master-villain role.

 

I do think the trauma of their father being killed in front of them would be sufficient to motivate anyone to change the direction of their lives; but Neutron's stated direction seemed rather vague, and more based in ego than in any logical viewpoint. For my Fourth Edition games using Neutron, I borrowed the motivation of the Champs villain Beamline, of imposing government by elite scientists like himself, being best trained to think rationally and objectively. My Neutron gathered scientist supervillains for his team, and established a covert network of other sympathetic scientists.

 

 

I love this take. 

And it fits nicely into a new Deathstroke. 

In the module it was take over the world because we are criminals and admit it.  

 

 

New Conquerors are all scientist types who believe that they are best suited to run things!

[Lord Liaden]

Thank you, Mr. R.  FWIW I also borrowed a very old name from published Champions for Neutron's organization: the International Scientific Elite, acronym ISE, which I pronounced "eyes." Because they're the only ones who see clearly, you see.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Its like Socrates' idea of the perfect kingdom being run by philosophers, a lot of specialists in a field tend to think they have it all figured out and ought to be in charge.  A good villain follows through on that idea.

[steriaca]

Humm...

 

For Deathstroke it depends on what the group needs and what Requiem wants for the group.

 

Both Requiem and Frost cover the energy blaster front. Frost is kinda a reckless younger brother and oddly hotheaded compared to his power set. Requiem is more of the brains of the two, and has learned to be cautious and careful. 

 

A brick would be an obvious get. Also a mentalist and a martial artist.

 

My idea of a relative of Doctor Death, who might want revenge for his ancestor's capture and embarrassment could be a fun addition. Making him an obvious "Starscream" could also be fun. But Requiem and Frost should have reasons why they allow this 'Kodeath' to run around with them. And 'Kodeath' should have a reason to obey Requiem 'for now', and a reason allow them to know that one day he will have his revenge for his dear uncle (or whatever...).

 

I like a new Scatterbrain (Scatterbrain 2), and the idea of a powerful and dangerous mentalist with memory problems might fit the "seriously funny" nature the group has been put into the past years.

 

Steel Commando? Could work. Could be a guy who is basically a mercenary for hire. As long as Requiem pays him, Steel Commando is loyal. If Steel Commando is not like this, then we could easily create a mercenary like that with another name.

[Steve]

The new team could be a family affair. Maybe the mutant power gene runs in their family and the new members are cousins or half-siblings. One cousin without natural powers could be the new Steel Commando.

[steriaca]

1 hour ago, Steve said:

The new team could be a family affair. Maybe the mutant power gene runs in their family and the new members are cousins or half-siblings. One cousin without natural powers could be the new Steel Commando.

Well, I'm not Tiger, so I can't speak for him, but he has done 6ed writeups for the Psikin (Psi-Kin?). So if your actually looking for a family of mutants, you can't go wrong with the quintuplets. 

 

It is possible for Deathstroke to have some family ties beyond the two brothers. But they have been imprisoned since the 80's. Where could they find the time?

[Lord Liaden]

On 2/7/2023 at 7:05 PM, assault said:

For a supervillain, "more based in ego than in any logical viewpoint" is perfectly sound.

They're not exactly the most stable bunch, and the exceptions should be - exceptions.

 

 

I think that's a valid assertion, but keep in mind that logic isn't the same thing as sanity, or even good sense. Take for example the movie version of Thanos. His plan has glaring flaws that many have pointed out, and ego is most definitely woven into it; but it has a logical through-line from his past experiences to his ultimate objective.

 

I just didn't feel that the traumatic event that changed Neutron would naturally lead to his megalomania. It's why I changed the focus of his obsession to something I thought tracked more clearly.

[DShomshak]

I got a lot of mileage from a group of technocrat villains in my old "Seattle Sentinels" campaign, and plan to introduce another such group -- the Top Men -- in my current "Avant Guard" campaign. In the current CU the nascent group, the Futurists, sort of touches on this story niche, but not quite.

 

Dean Shomshak

[Lord Liaden]

The Futurists from Champions Villains Volume Two are pretty odd choices of characters for that role in a campaign. Their histories and personalities are rather compromised for a match to the ideals of their stated purpose, and their names wouldn't be good from a public-relations standpoint: Morticus, The Fiend, and their sometime-ally Cybercide. Remarks from Hero Games reps in the past strongly implied to me that these Futurists came from Cryptic Studios, not Hero.

 

About a decade ago I posted to this forum my concept of using the Futurists name for a group drawn from basically benevolent Champions Universe supers, who would function more like Marvel Comics' Illuminati (although hopefully more subtly and covertly, and less arrogantly, than the Marvel group).

 

 

[tiger]

Villainy Codex V is finished and up at DrivethruRPG, been sent to Jason for the Hero Website as well.

 

Hope you enjoy it and find it useful.

[tiger]

I've been given permission by Jason to update one of my favorite 3rd edition supplements Neutral Ground to 6th edition.

 

Will be part of Hall of Champions on DrivethruRPG & of course the Webstore here

[Christopher R Taylor]

Great idea!

[Lord Fyre]

How about a Scatterbrained idea?  (This may technically break 6th Edition cannon.)  

What if, after watching the death of Henry Wadsworth (Death Commando), Farmal, Rocky, and Melissa decide to "Fake their Deaths?"  

 

They'd need to take on new identities, and create a new team, but this has some interesting possibilities.  This could also set up an interesting conflict when the du Morte brothers figure out what happened.  
 

Edited May 21 by Lord Fyre
Double Posting

[Christopher R Taylor]

Deathstroke should come back as a hero group!  Thunderbolts in Champions

[Lord Fyre]

22 minutes ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

Deathstroke should come back as a hero group!  Thunderbolts in Champions

That name doesn't really lend itself to a Heroic image.  

[Lord Liaden]

The whole gimmick of the revived Deathstroke in Champions Villains Volume Two is that the DuMorte brothers are looking to recruit a new team around themselves. There are many published solo villains who could fill out its ranks, or you could create your own new ones.

 

If you do want to recreate the original team, be aware that the official Champions insect villain Hornet (CV3) has Stinger's origin lifted practically whole-cloth.

[death tribble]

I did not care for the casual offing of Deathstroke bar Frost and Requiem. I would give the team a run out until something happened organically. As for the Conquerors I am fond of the first two members who appeared and that was Ankylosaur and Wyvern. The picture of Ankylosaur from Enemies 1 is one of the best designs and has not be bettered in any designs since in my less than humble opinion. Please note that is the picture not the build of the suit.

It would be easier for me to break up the Conquerors and have Neutron and Arc running a new team rather than the Deathstroke origin of 'their friends died off screen' and they are now recruiting.

 

But that is my view. 

[Lord Liaden]

I quite like your view.   I also didn't care for the bulk of Deathstroke being killed. I thought the version of the team that appeared in Champions Universe for Fourth Edition -- Requiem, Chiller (prefer that name to Frost), Stinger, Shockwave, Death Commando, and Scatterbrain -- was well-balanced and effective, and the group uniforms Scott Heine gave them made for a distinctive team look. Admittedly, that version as written was designed more for comic relief, but there's no reason it has to be. And Steve Long incorporated and transcended their reputation as failures for their 5E/6E incarnation, by declaring that Adrian DuMorte's time in Stronghold caused him to rethink his past actions and motives, and develop a more mature, disciplined approach to supervillainy.

 

I'm also very fond of the Deathstroke philosophy presented in their original adventure module, of recruiting a support organization dedicated to the proposition of government by crooks who are at least honest about it. Frankly, given the recent state of politics in America, I can see that philosophy having broader appeal than seemed likely forty years ago. And them having hired a publicist as in 4E would feed neatly into that concept.

 

I have a couple of thoughts about the Conquerors. In the mini-book,  The Stronghold Files (a supplement to Stronghold), there's an update to Neutron and Arc. In this incarnation Neutron was a major world-threatening supervillain during the 1970s and 80s, but was eventually captured and sent to Stronghold, along with his flunky, Arc. Age, and decades under the prison's power negators, sapped Neutron's powers to a small fraction of their former might. But there's another official villain, Timelapse (in CV3), a time-manipulator claiming to be from the future, whose M.O. is to suddenly appear and advance or reverse the aging of seemingly random people. I would propose that Timelapse break into Stronghold and restore Neutron and Arc to their physical and superhuman primes, facilitating their escape from Stronghold and the renewal of Neutron's campaign of supplanting government with his own "more benevolent" rule.

 

The 5E villain compendium, Villains, Vandals, And Vermin, introduced a new villainess called Magnetica, a mutant with (duh) magnetic powers who sees herself as a revolutionary against the white male dominated establishment. She wasn't carried over into 6E, but I think she'd work well as an illegitimate child of Neutron who would naturally fall in with his own anti-government agenda. These three could form the core of a new Conquerors team, one with a more focused goal and thematically linked powers.

Edited May 23 by Lord Liaden

[Sketchpad]

I was always a Deathstroke fan. They popped up here and there over the years in my early Champions games, and have since made a kind of homage team in my own universe. Never was a fan of the 6th ed version, but had a stray thought about their status quo... What if Requiem and Chiller believed their teammates were dead, but, in reality, it was all an illusion? Maybe the team had the brothers take the fall while the team went underground with a specialized support team and are now building a network? The world believes them to be dead, but they're running some big ops while "Deathstroke" is flopping around looking to reform. Just an idea...

[Lord Liaden]

It's an interesting idea, but whom do you see having come up with it? Which one of the team is running the "big ops?"

[DShomshak]

As for killing off most of Deathstroke "offscreen," I am reminded of Marvel Comics writer/editor Mark Gruenwald's changing attitude to his creation, the Scourge of the Underworld. Gruenwald created this murderous vigilante (later revealed as an entire organization) to thin out the Marvbel Universe of obscure villains he thought were boriung, redundant, or simply ill-conceived. Which the Scourge did (at first, mostly in the pages of Captain America, written by Gruenwald).

 

Later, however, Gruenwald used his "Mark's Remarks" column to express second thoughts. He said someone had written him to challenge the premise: more or less, "Who are you to judge which character is useless? How do you know some later writer won't take a new look at a character and do something brilliant with them?" And Gruenwald admitted the writer was right.

 

(Though I do think the Scourge of the Underworld was itself a good addition to the Marvel Universe.)

 

It's a little different with the CU, since every GM effectively creates a new CU and can decide for themselves who lives, dies, or never existed in the first place. But it still seems a little high-handed to declare some characters Officially Dead for no special reason.

 

Dean Shomshak

[Stanley Teriaca]

Some of them have been declared dead because Heroic Publishing got permission to use them (most of Terror Incorprated for example...). This they can't legally use those villains (but that doesn't prevent you from using them of course).

[Lord Liaden]

6 hours ago, DShomshak said:

It's a little different with the CU, since every GM effectively creates a new CU and can decide for themselves who lives, dies, or never existed in the first place. But it still seems a little high-handed to declare some characters Officially Dead for no special reason.

 

Except for CLOWN.

 

Most of those CU decisions were made by Steve Long when he was Line Developer for Hero Games, so if one asks, "Who are you to decide?" well, that's who he was.

 

In some cases, the decisions were made because Hero no longer had the rights to use certain characters. A number of them were replaced by a very similar character with a different name, filling the same "ecological niche" that the previous character had occupied. In other cases those characters became part of the "history" of the Champions Universe, used to enrich the sense of a living, evolving world. But I'm confident that some characters weren't included because Steve plain didn't like them, although he almost always presented a rationale for why he didn't like them.

  

6 hours ago, DShomshak said:

 

(Though I do think the Scourge of the Underworld was itself a good addition to the Marvel Universe.)

 

 

 

Hero's Thunderbird vigilante kind of conflates the Scourge of the Underworld with the Punisher.

Edited May 23 by Lord Liaden

[death tribble]

6 hours ago, Lord Liaden said:

In some cases, the decisions were made because Hero no longer had the rights to use certain characters. A number of them were replaced by a very similar character with a different name, filling the same "ecological niche" that the previous character had occupied. In other cases those characters became part of the "history" of the Champions Universe, used to enrich the sense of a living, evolving world. But I'm confident that some characters weren't included because Steve plain didn't like them, although he almost always presented a rationale for why he didn't like them.

Out of interest which characters did Hero no longer have the rights to ?

 

Or which books were they in if there are too many to list ?