Fate Points in Champions?

[Grow-Arm-Hair Lad]

I feel like I've seen people talking about this in the forums, and that there are a few people who do this, but I'll be darned if I can mine up any threads.

 

I want to start using xp as Fate Points or how Karma is used in Faserip. I think I want it to be that you can burn an unused xp to increase a roll by one. Does anyone do this? If so, how does it work in your game?

[Doc Democracy]

Personally, I have never liked systems like this, as a player having to expend long term development for short term gain has always felt like I was cheated.

 

I prefer not allowing xp to be used as xp until they have been used as a boost.  So every xp you earn has the potential to give a short term boost and then to be used to buy powers.

 

Howeve, if you wanted to do this, you could consider awarding Heroic Action Points instead of XP, they would be one use and you could limit them in other ways to get the value to one HAP per xp.  When a HAP is used it becomes an XP, only to be used for character development.

 

As a player, I would not then feel cheated, having to burn my future advancement just to hit an opponent.

 

Doc

[Lord Liaden]

I haven't done this myself, but I have seen this sort of thing incorporated by a couple of Pulp Hero GMs on their personal campaign websites. AFAICT both websites are defunct, although one of them can still be accessed by the Internet Archive Wayback Machine (link provided on request). However, I saved their descriptions of the mechanics they used, which I found interesting in theory, into a Document file, which I'll attach below.

 

The first is by our forum colleague, Jesse "ArmlessTigerMan" Zwerling, from his "Thrilling True Tales!" website. It provides general rules for acquiring a separate pool of "Action Points!" (his exclamation points ) used to change the results of various die rolls during a game, as well as "dramatic editing," i.e. altering some conditions of a scene in the player's favor. The second is from a Hero adaptation of White Wolf's Adventure! pulp RPG, but I'm afraid I don't remember the name of the author of the website.   They used Character Points to buy "Inspiration Points," utilized for a more elaborate breakdown of the dramatic editing concept. It struck me that the two systems could be employed together for maximum flexibility.

 

To reiterate, these systems were employed in pulp gaming, and I can't speak for those GMs as to how they worked in practice.

Action Points.rtf

[Mr. R]

13 hours ago, Grow-Arm-Hair Lad said:

I feel like I've seen people talking about this in the forums, and that there are a few people who do this, but I'll be darned if I can mine up any threads.

 

I want to start using xp as Fate Points or how Karma is used in Faserip. I think I want it to be that you can burn an unused xp to increase a roll by one. Does anyone do this? If so, how does it work in your game?

 

I remember reading about a game that used this and it was found that the PC who decided to burn his XP like that was slowly falling behind the rest of the team.  As he had no XP to improve, he had to burn more XP to just keep up, which hindered his advancement further.  

 

I would recommend the suggestions above IF you want to keep the the idea of XP as luck points.

 

As an alternative though you could just use Luck and modify it.  Roll your luck and that is how many points you can use to modify your rolls.  

[Lord Liaden]

1 hour ago, Mr. R said:

As an alternative though you could just use Luck and modify it.  Roll your luck and that is how many points you can use to modify your rolls.  

 

That's one of the options given in the 6E rules for acquiring Heroic Action Points (HAP) used to modify dice rolls. Instead of all players having 2D6 to roll at the start of a session to gain a random number of HAP, the GM can allow them to buy dice of Luck usable for this purpose. It's not exactly employing XP directly to change a roll, as there's still randomness in how many HAP players get.

 

See 6E Vol. 2 pp. 288-292 for a detailed (of course) breakdown of how HAP work and options for using them.

 

  

1 hour ago, Mr. R said:

 

I remember reading about a game that used this and it was found that the PC who decided to burn his XP like that was slowly falling behind the rest of the team.  As he had no XP to improve, he had to burn more XP to just keep up, which hindered his advancement further.  

 

 

I suppose that's one reason why the default for HAP is as a pool of points separate from Experience. However, there's still the issue of whether to allow a player to hoard their unused HAP for future game sessions, with potentially balance-breaking consequences.

Edited May 25, 2023 by Lord Liaden

[dmjalund]

I wonder if you could allow a character to spend points to get more HAP than average

[Duke Bushido]

There is someone else here (Unclevlad, I _think_) who, like me, isnt crazy about the 'Critical Hit' concept.

 

I have one group that likes it, and we struck a happy medium of sorts where anything that might be considered a 'critical success' instead rewards a point (call it whatever you want; we just call it a point) that can be cashed in (same,session only) for an extra die or two or a re-roll or a stroke of incredible luck, etc, etc.

 

They seem to enjoy it okay, and it saves me having to worry about 'accidental crits'  against PCs.  Don't get me wrong; PC death is on the table in the majority of my games, but flipping the crit switch on allows for them to die in truly inglorious and often downright stupid ways.

 

 

[LoneWolf]

From a cost stand point this is a waste.  1d6 of luck cost 5 points.  Using the alternative rules from the APG that 1d6 would give the player 1 reroll per session.   Those rules also state that the reroll must achieve a better result than the original result.    A single die of luck would give you a lot better results than using an xp to gain a +1 on a single roll.  Unless the campaign is only a one or two sessions the cost of a single die of luck is a much better deal. 

 

Besides you can probably get the same thing by bringing a bottle of the GM’s preferred drink, or snack.

Edited May 25, 2023 by LoneWolf

[Duke Bushido]

2 hours ago, LoneWolf said:

 

Besides you can probably get the same thing by bringing a bottle of the GM’s preferred drink, 

 

 

That's not easy for my players.  Very few if them commute from Maine....

[Sketchpad]

22 hours ago, Grow-Arm-Hair Lad said:

I feel like I've seen people talking about this in the forums, and that there are a few people who do this, but I'll be darned if I can mine up any threads.

 

I want to start using xp as Fate Points or how Karma is used in Faserip. I think I want it to be that you can burn an unused xp to increase a roll by one. Does anyone do this? If so, how does it work in your game?

 

I've played around with both HAPs and using something similar to Hero Points from Mutants & Masterminds in my campaigns. HAPs are a bit more like Karma for me, and might do what you're looking for. 

[Ninja-Bear]

HAP seems to be what Karma is in FASERIP.

[Scott Ruggels]

I just never have been a fan of "metacurrencies", especially ones that modify player die rolls after the fact.  D&D ^e "Luck" also falls into that. As a GM, I do combat rolls open. The only hidden rolls are for things that Players have no idea or observation on what is going on, but rolls are rolls. I just don't think Metacurrencies belong in Hero, in spite of what 6Edition may suggest. Just not a fan.

 

[Lord Liaden]

Fair enough, but I do see the argument for them. More than once I've had players do just about everything right, and earn their hard-fought victory, only for a random dice roll to completely screw them if I allowed it.

 

IMO it's appropriate for the Universal RPG system to include them as an option for each game group.

[Doc Democracy]

The reason I am for them is because they encourage players to have their characters do heroic, risky stuff because there is a safety net.  Sometimes players are a bit precious, this helps them loosen up a bit.

[Scott Ruggels]

8 hours ago, Lord Liaden said:

Fair enough, but I do see the argument for them. More than once I've had players do just about everything right, and earn their hard-fought victory, only for a random dice roll to completely screw them if I allowed it.

...and I live for tose bad rolls, because then, what are the players going to do? Adversity breeds character, and all that.

 

8 hours ago, Lord Liaden said:

 

IMO it's appropriate for the Universal RPG system to include them as an option for each game group.

 

Ehhh we didn't see that until 6th Edition, so I suppose that is another sin 6E has to answer for.

[KawangaKid]

I don't recommend doing so in the case of Fate Points. FATE uses FATE Points in an economy.

You can earn Fate Points by agreeing to (or self-penalizing your character) with an aspect disadvantage for the scene;

You can spend Fate Points for a specific set of bonuses or meta effects.

 

FATE points are supposed to grow and ebb in the span of a game. And I think it gets reset to the base at the start of the next adventure or session. This is very different from earning XP.

[Christopher R Taylor]

I do like the idea of multiple types of rewards for a player, more than just Experience.  Stuff like skills learned from activity (you get 1 free point of Dwarven Language for having spent six months with the Dwarves), a get out of jail free card from the government, etc.  I'm not so sure about this though, because its part of a dedicated system sort of built around the concept, as the Kawanga Kid says.

Edited May 29, 2023 by Christopher R Taylor

[Lord Liaden]

13 hours ago, Scott Ruggels said:

 

Ehhh we didn't see that until 6th Edition, so I suppose that is another sin 6E has to answer for.

 

Not exactly. Heroic Action Points were introduced with Pulp Hero for Fifth Edition, because they could be argued to suit the genre, because other pulp RPGs were using something similar, and because there had long been requests/complaints from Hero players for a comparable mechanic. 6E only incorporated them into the core rules as one option.

 

But I don't agree with categorizing a particular game mechanic which some people like as a "sin" because someone else doesn't like it, or doesn't think it works for them when it works for someone else.

 

  

13 hours ago, Scott Ruggels said:

...and I live for those bad rolls, because then, what are the players going to do? Adversity breeds character, and all that.

 

 

Breeding character is all well and good, but RPGs are supposed to be fun for all participants. When the former treads on the latter, I draw the line.

Edited May 29, 2023 by Lord Liaden

[Christopher R Taylor]

I like Hero points because they compensate for having no writer.  Here is an example of what I mean:

 

I had a brickish character whose conceit was that he was a "bloodguard" that he was part of a long line of people through history that were chosen by God to protect someone and keep them safe.  These might be nobodies who have an unknown impact on the world, they might be someone important and obviously historical.  In the game, the ward was one of the other PCs who was a bit of a glass cannon, he was big on utility but light on defenses.

 

The ward got into trouble at the top of a building (the team split up and came from below and above) and my character was at the bottom floor.  So he flew into an elevator shaft, and flew straight up as fast as possible and did an armor piercing move through on the roof of the elevator to get out in time to save his ward and do a neat presence attack.

 

I rolled all ones.  I'm not even joking, every die ended up a one.  I did zero body to the elevator shaft and bounce off it, taking no damage.  Thankfully the giant bang was enough to distract the bad guy but... really?  My big moment ruined by a catastrophically bad die roll?  This was a perfect, beautiful moment for the splash page, to do my duty and fulfill my character's purpose, turned into a humiliating and frustrating failure.

 

In some campaigns that kind of thing is fine, it fits the theme and tone. In most, though... not so much

Edited May 29, 2023 by Christopher R Taylor

[Ninja-Bear]

I just heard on Dungeoncraft at someone wrote up a neat houserule cheap PDF called Luck Dice. Basically everytime you whiff you earn a luck die which you can cash in later to do something epic, if you live that long.

[Ninja-Bear]

17 hours ago, Scott Ruggels said:

...and I live for tose bad rolls, because then, what are the players going to do? Adversity breeds character, and all that.

 

Allowing a reroll still doesn’t guarantee success either. So you still can have that adversity. 
 

Lord knows I’ve had run of bad rolls that it wouldn’t matter how many HAPs I had.

Edited May 29, 2023 by Ninja-Bear

[Sketchpad]

2 hours ago, Ninja-Bear said:

I just heard on Dungeoncraft at someone wrote up a neat houserule cheap PDF called Luck Dice. Basically everytime you whiff you earn a luck die which you can cash in later to do something epic, if you live that long.

 

I've been playing with something similar. Rather than reflect missing, it rewards people for playing heroic, bringing snacks, etc. 

 

EDIT: I should also note that some villains get a variation of this as well. Makes things interesting. 

Edited May 30, 2023 by Sketchpad

[Khymeria]

I have fiddled around with this a bit but using HAP in a variety of different ways besides just extra damage. Like spending a point to add something to the environment that can be used in an encounter. "Good thing that fire extinguisher and fire axe were there with a hose to use as a rope" sort of thing. I kind of like the idea of being able to use a HAP to push for 5 Active Points with a power and not require an EGO roll maybe. I think there is a great mechanic possible here that is more than just plusses. I think once ironed out a bit, it might help to draw the players into the environment and setting. Plus, sometimes heroes are just fortuitous, like the A-Team week after week after week. Ok, maybe not like that.

[Grow-Arm-Hair Lad]

On 5/29/2023 at 1:40 PM, Christopher R Taylor said:

I rolled all ones.  I'm not even joking, every die ended up a one.  I did zero body to the elevator shaft and bounce off it, taking no damage.  Thankfully the giant bang was enough to distract the bad guy but... really?  My big moment ruined by a catastrophically bad die roll?  This was a perfect, beautiful moment for the splash page, to do my duty and fulfill my character's purpose, turned into a humiliating and frustrating failure.

 

In some campaigns that kind of thing is fine, it fits the theme and tone. In most, though... not so much

 

This is exactly the situation I am thinking of.

Honestly, I've been playing Champions a long time. I respect that everyone has a different take on this. But after reading the responses so far, I really believe the "one xp to raise the roll by one" is the answer here.

 

In Christopher R Taylor's example, I would say you could use one xp to flip any of those dice from a "1" to a "6".

 

So my rule would be: "Use 1xp to raise any roll by 1 or to flip any die on a damage roll to a 6."

 

And, using xp in this way will be allowed after the fact. So if you blow the roll, you can rewind and use as much xp as necessary to make it a success.

 

I would consider an additional rule: You can use xp to raise your roll by two and flip two dice to 6 if you declare before the roll. So you get a better deal if you worry about it ahead of time than rewinding after you have failed.

 

Thoughts?

[Christopher R Taylor]

Given how few xp you get in Hero and that they directly apply to permanent character upgrades there's no situation I can imagine in which it would be worth it to me to sacrifice an experience point for one roll in a game session.