Marvel's Rogue

[keithcurtis]

Re: Marvel's Rogue

 

I know im beating my head against a brick wall, but rogues power drain should at least fit in somwhere in the drain/adjustment catagory.

 

If you use Multiform, its just not the intended use of the power, allow EDM universere of choice, "i am who i want to be".

 

8 billion characters, give me three dice and ten minutes and ill gen one that isint incuded.

 

Seeing as they are undefined characters by definition (re: original post), you would need to generate 8,000,000,001 characters to exceed the limit. That's over 150,000 years.

8 Billion is excessive. I'd say a hundred is probably excessive given the number of times the power is likely to be used over the life of the characters as played in an average campaign. If you're going to be using her as a PC, up it to a thousand and by the time you need more, you'll have enough XP to buy as many more as you need.

Personally, Id go with a honking big transform that allows you to target yourself, link it to an NND, and another transform that removes powers from the target and start playing.*

Agreed, transfer is a better mechanic, but the bookkeeping would be ridiculous.

 

Keith "What do you need 3d6 for anyway?:)" Curtis

 

---

Actually, in my game, I'd just say, she copies your powers and use your character sheet for her. Silly Rabbit, Points are for Players!

[Jhamin]

Re: Marvel's Rogue

 

I keep seeing people say that a given approach works, but is too expensive. The assumption seems to be that a Rougue that works like the one in the comics or movie ought to be point balanced with the rest of the team.

 

IMHO this wishful thinking, Rouge is by far the most expensive X-Man. We need to not veto writeups because they are expensive.

 

Why? Because in Hero terms she has the best hand to hand attack possible (Drop anyone into unconsciousness by touching them once, better than metal claws ain't it?) and no matter what powers you have at what point level she is able to do steal them, while downing you in one or two phases.

 

This means that she potentially has as much power as anyone else in the campaign, plus her Strength, Flight, and toughness. Sure, she can't use it all the time, but in a fight (when it matters) she can drop one opponent right away, then use those powers right away. The fact that she can only use this when fighting other superpowered beings isn't a limit at all in her campaign.

 

If we are using full FREd rules, VPP is the way to go. And it need to be huge.

If we are using Sidekick rules, then I think the multiform is a pretty inventive way to get there. But she needs to be able to multiform into Magnito with her Stats, Juggernaught w/flight, Thor, and a bunch of guys like that. So plan on paying alot for it.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Marvel's Rogue

 

Again, saying about the same as what I mentioned earlier in this link

 

Moving on slightly, I am curious to hear everyone's opionion on whether the idea that ALL super-team members have to be or start at the same power level given the following:

 

• We have just shown that Rogue will cost more 'points' than most other 'X-men'.
  
• Phoenix goes without saying.
  
• Even Raven from the 'Teen Titans' probably qualifies to some degree.
  
• And the classic from the original 'team' comic 'Justice League': Superman who almost by definition is the most powerful superhero on DC Earth.
  

Now it seems as though the creators of both DC animated series have gone to some lengths to play down the power level differences to some degree and in some cases it makes sense. Green Lantern is pretty close to being as powerfull as Superman. Still, I think there have been episodes where Big Blue is purposely left out of an 'episode' to give the rest of the team something to do 'as a team' (that he might be able to handle on his own in some cases, see the 2-part Vandal Savage episode with the Rail-Gun as an example).

 

The idea of one character being more powerfull than others in a roleplaying game is not new. My old memories of 1st ed. D&D recall that a Paladin was pretty damn tough, the powers gained seem to more than balance the lower 'fighter based' characteristics.

 

Has anyone ran or played in a 'supers' game where one player was given a significantly more powerfull character like Superman and sometimes correspondingly more powerfull oponents that go with that level of power? And if so how did it work out?

[Hawksmoor]

Re: Marvel's Rogue

 

Again' date=' saying about the same as what I mentioned earlier in this link

 

Moving on slightly, I am curious to hear everyone's opionion on whether the idea that ALL super-team members have to be or start at the same power level given the following:

 

• We have just shown that Rogue will cost more 'points' than most other 'X-men'.
  
• Phoenix goes without saying.
  
• Even Raven from the 'Teen Titans' probably qualifies to some degree.
  
• And the classic from the original 'team' comic 'Justice League': Superman who almost by definition is the most powerful superhero on DC Earth.
  

Now it seems as though the creators of both DC animated series have gone to some lengths to play down the power level differences to some degree and in some cases it makes sense. Green Lantern is pretty close to being as powerfull as Superman. Still, I think there have been episodes where Big Blue is purposely left out of an 'episode' to give the rest of the team something to do 'as a team' (that he might be able to handle on his own in some cases, see the 2-part Vandal Savage episode with the Rail-Gun as an example).

 

The idea of one character being more powerfull than others in a roleplaying game is not new. My old memories of 1st ed. D&D recall that a Paladin was pretty damn tough, the powers gained seem to more than balance the lower 'fighter based' characteristics.

 

Has anyone ran or played in a 'supers' game where one player was given a significantly more powerfull character like Superman and sometimes correspondingly more powerfull oponents that go with that level of power? And if so how did it work out?

 

It was often the case in our Champions games when I was growing up. You see, Limitations and Disadvantages were not *hit on*. If you took "not in magnetic feilds, and not in High Magic Realms" you were very unlikely to encounter them. If you built a power armor hero you took limitations for the whole shebang (1/2 DCV, One Turn or One full phase set up and OIF).

 

The result was that no one played androids, mentalists, pure mutants or the like. The reason was that you could not get a good limitation out of it, and thus you had few "Active" points to build your PCs.

 

One of the memorable games was where a friend of mine had a Mon-El one off. He was so powerful that the opposition had to include a villian just for HIM to fight. If one of us got in his way...well did you read the Doomsday arc? Remember what he did to everyone? That was us.

 

Hawksmoor

-Play balance is good

[zornwil]

Re: Marvel's Rogue

 

First, games will be different than books of course, so differences in power levels are "meaningless" from books as a guide to games as, simply put, book characters have no personal ego! The writer has full control in the book. So inevitably, power levels matter somehow. But I definitely think you can design and run a campaign iwth varying power levels. A lot of it is about creating the right niches but also ensuring players are okay with their players' level of involvement and influence over the game. Some people get very turned off by not having influence - but that influence can be just as easily exercised by featuring some plot threads that center around the less powerful but influence-"needy" PC.

 

As to a tangent that this raised for me - wouldn't it be cool if something like the 250 or 350 point project (whichever it is now) would show ORTHODOX (no house rules, worst case some limitation/advantages that are unique as that is often necessary) for EACH HERO version? I mean it's totally impractical, but it would be very interesting.

[AngryBug]

Re: Marvel's Rogue

 

Of course Rogue can be done with HERO- anything can be done with HERO! Just look at all the different approaches on this thread alone! Which one is the "right" one depends on which version of Rogue you're creating. Movie version? First appearance? Rogue/Carol Danvers? X-Men:Evolution?

Game balance is a completely separate issue. If the player's vision of "Rogue" costs too much for a given campaign, then it's up to the GM to decide what to do about it; raise the point limit for that one character, consider "Rogue" to start at a lower power level and "grow into" the character conception, whatever. It all depends what players and GM want out of the game. If the campaign is "X-Men", then getting it as close to "right" as possible is more important than point caps. If the character is a Rogue homage , have her start lower powered and grow. Even Superman couldn't fly in his first appearance (and the Thing was lumpy and weaker, and Hulk was grey, weaker and smarter, and Iron Man had transistors, etc., etc., etc....).

In any case, while powerful, Rogue is never (to my knowledge) shown to be unstoppable and all-powerful. When her foe is Juggernaut or Magneto, she absorbs a fraction of their power, leaving them conscious and somewhat weakened, but still in command of most of their abilities. I think she can be created as a workable character for any superheroic campaign, following the truly wise advice posted here. How powerful she is depends on the campaign, doesn't it?

[ghost-angel]

Re: Marvel's Rogue

 

Rogue cant steal powers' date=' cos there no mechanic for that in hero. [/quote']

 

I was about to pass over this thread, but I've had a bad week and stupid people make me angry. And the above is a stupid statement.

 

10d6 Drain: All powers one at a time; Recovery Rate moved down chart if you want; No Range (has to touch)

*linked*

10D6 Drain: STUN; Again, move the REC rate down the chart; No Range. [that drops you into negative land really fast.]

 

VPP: Mimic Pool, Only powers Drained.

 

Make them as large as you want or feel is needed. Now go back under your rock until you learn to think. Or play D20, that's a nice small box to play inside.

 

Hero can do ANYTHING, it just takes some creativity sometimes. Just because there isn't a power "Steal" in the rule book doesn't mean to can't simulate it with a combination of other powers.

 

And yes, I realize VPPs are not in Sidekick, but the statement had nothing to do with "You can't do that with Sidekick" it said "Hero".

[zornwil]

Re: Marvel's Rogue

 

I was about to pass over this thread, but I've had a bad week and stupid people make me angry. And the above is a stupid statement.

 

10d6 Drain: All powers one at a time; Recovery Rate moved down chart if you want; No Range (has to touch)

*linked*

10D6 Drain: STUN; Again, move the REC rate down the chart; No Range. [that drops you into negative land really fast.]

 

VPP: Mimic Pool, Only powers Drained.

 

Make them as large as you want or feel is needed. Now go back under your rock until you learn to think. Or play D20, that's a nice small box to play inside.

 

Hero can do ANYTHING, it just takes some creativity sometimes. Just because there isn't a power "Steal" in the rule book doesn't mean to can't simulate it with a combination of other powers.

 

And yes, I realize VPPs are not in Sidekick, but the statement had nothing to do with "You can't do that with Sidekick" it said "Hero".

"until you learn to think...nice small box to play inside"??? Dude, I know how it is being stressed out and mad at stupid people - this has been a bad week for me, too, we ewnt live with a MAJOR package Monday and life will be hell for a while, but that is a little harsh there, don't you think? Vorsch isn't a stupid guy, even if you think he's saying something stupid.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Marvel's Rogue

 

That was harsh GA... but I'll leave it at that. I've had bad days too.

 

Rogue is one of those off-beat characters that's a challenge not only to build, but also a challenge to fit into a campaign. For all she's worth, whateve the cost, she'll never be up to the standards of other character on the same point level. It's one of the trade offs of being versitile. Rogue is not only versitile but uncontrollably so. That makes her both expensive to build and not much worth the cost of doing so.

 

Sure she's a wonderful character and I love reading about her, or watching her on TV/Movies. But points don't matter in the actual comics or on TV.

[JmOz]

Re: Marvel's Rogue

 

Couple of power transfer questions.

 

in Marvel a small mutant child took out X Factors Celestialy built ship, No power defence or was the child that powerful against 1 million tons of ultimate super tech ( could he take a celestial?, if not why not)

 

If Rogue touches galactus what happens?

 

1 he laughs

2 she laughs as the galactically powerful ROGUE

3 she explodes

4 they become a Gestalt, absorbed cos hes such a bad ass, galactus with hair issues

 

I was never a big X-Factor reader, but the one time I remember this happening was when Franklin Richards did it...If this is the time you are talking about then he IS that powerful...

[Vorsch]

Re: Marvel's Rogue

 

I was about to pass over this thread, but I've had a bad week and stupid people make me angry. And the above is a stupid statement.

 

10d6 Drain: All powers one at a time; Recovery Rate moved down chart if you want; No Range (has to touch)

*linked*

10D6 Drain: STUN; Again, move the REC rate down the chart; No Range. [that drops you into negative land really fast.]

 

VPP: Mimic Pool, Only powers Drained.

 

Make them as large as you want or feel is needed. Now go back under your rock until you learn to think. Or play D20, that's a nice small box to play inside.

 

Hero can do ANYTHING, it just takes some creativity sometimes. Just because there isn't a power "Steal" in the rule book doesn't mean to can't simulate it with a combination of other powers.

 

And yes, I realize VPPs are not in Sidekick, but the statement had nothing to do with "You can't do that with Sidekick" it said "Hero".

 

Presumably the VPP allows special powers, and is large enougth to cope with all powers that a characters has without the benifit of EC or more significantly MP ( no frameworks in frameworks ) for my standard Energy projector this works out at about 390AP ( 3 slot EC 5 slot MP ), mimic pools about a -1? , no skill roll, call it 400pts. Im probabily misinterpreting mimic pool.

 

And when i said theres no mechanic for it, there is no Transfer your Power to me, Directly, there are clunky fixes which work kinda but breakdown if pushed to far( see all previous examples of Multiform EDM VPP ). Dont you find that strange in a genre where direct power nicking if far more common than any other kind of transfer.

 

I hope your reply allowed you to vent steam, certainly gave me reason to chuckle. ( d20... small box )

 

And yes Hero can do everthing perfectly, im going to stop reading the other boards now that youve cleared that up for me, all my characters are now going to be 350pt VPP no skill, 0 phase , only to simulate the hero i want ( must be good for a -1 lim )

[Vorsch]

Re: Marvel's Rogue

 

I was never a big X-Factor reader' date=' but the one time I remember this happening was when Franklin Richards did it...If this is the time you are talking about then he IS that powerful...[/quote']

 

 

I seem to remember it was a kid called Leech that took out the celestial'y built ship. Franklin richards once hid inside galactus, but as to taking a celestial ive only read about Thor and Beyonder ever fighting them. ( Thor lost, Beyonder won )

 

My point was has rogue ever displayed a limit, if she can absorb all of magneto or Xavier then she counts as one of the most powerful mutants alive. Has she ever taken a Watcher, Phoenix, Galactus etc?

[ghost-angel]

Re: Marvel's Rogue

 

Ok, so apparently last night I had reached a nadir of stress.

 

I'll apologize for being that much of a bastard.

 

And I didn't say Hero could do anything perfectly .. I just said it could do anything.

 

There's no "blow your opponent to bitsies" power either, but most people manage to simulate that in Hero very well. VPPs allow everything (except other frameworks) inside them.

 

Here's a Mimic Pool:

Control Cost Limitations: Requires successful HTH Att (-1/2), VPP Mimics Target's Powers (-1/2), Powers may only be as powerful as Target's Powers (-1/2). p210 FREd.

 

If the target has a Fire Ball (there isn't one of those in Hero either but you can make one...) Energy Blast; Armor Piercing, Explosion, Reduced Range, Incantations, Extra Time you get the exact same thing.

 

Hero doesn't have "Powers" it's a tookit used to build the Power you want, there's no klunky fixes about it, the more abstract the idea the more that may need to be involved to bring it to reality/game play.

 

And if you want a "Copy Power" power then make it, call it 15points/D6 - every D6 allows you to Copy that many active points of a targets Power.

 

here:

Copy Power

Instant

Attack/Adjustment

 

Copy Power allows you to mimic an opponents power, for every point of Copy Power rolled you mimic an Active Point of power from the target. Copy Power is a touch attack, costs END, and fades at a rate of 5AP/Turn. You can only Copy up to as many active points as your maximum die rolls allows (2D6 Copy Power = 12 Active Points maximum that you can copy.)

Copy Power costs 15 points / D6.

--

Copy Power is a modified form of Transfer.

[Vorsch]

Re: Marvel's Rogue

 

In fact i believe a simple extra line in Tranfer " only to steal one power" would be enough for this power, with the +2 applies to all powers would be incredibly potent, and be the start point of rogue, absorbing man type character. Also the drain/recovery would automaticaly be sycnchronised.

 

I understand stress, put you feet up have a beer. works for me.

 

The thing with the mimic pool was if you touch some one and drain all there powers as in your example could you switch the pool around to simulate MP's. so long as the target has the power you can mimic them one at a time if need be. Become a kind of ultraboy if you drain superman or become a low powerd superman. if you get my meaning.

[megaplayboy]

Re: Marvel's Rogue

 

I remember specifically asking Steve L if Multiform could be put in a framework. The answer was yes.

 

Therefore Rogue could be written up using a VPP with 3 powers:

1. massive no range NND

2. Transform target to unpowered

3. Multiform to character with additional powers

 

The VPP has a number of limitations, including a SE of personality change.

[zornwil]

Re: Marvel's Rogue

 

(snippage)

I understand stress, put you feet up have a beer. works for me.

 

I don't know, they seem to frown on that at 10 AM where I work!

[zornwil]

Re: Marvel's Rogue

 

I remember specifically asking Steve L if Multiform could be put in a framework. The answer was yes.

 

Therefore Rogue could be written up using a VPP with 3 powers:

1. massive no range NND

2. Transform target to unpowered

3. Multiform to character with additional powers

 

The VPP has a number of limitations, including a SE of personality change.

Excellent addition to this thread, I like it. Particularly the rules check on Mform with frameworks.

[GamePhil]

Re: Marvel's Rogue

 

In fact i believe a simple extra line in Tranfer " only to steal one power" would be enough for this power, with the +2 applies to all powers would be incredibly potent, and be the start point of rogue, absorbing man type character. Also the drain/recovery would automaticaly be sycnchronised.

 

You'd still need some ability to actually have this go to: Transfer EB doesn't help you if you don't have an EB yourself.

[GamePhil]

Re: Marvel's Rogue

 

Therefore Rogue could be written up using a VPP with 3 powers:

1. massive no range NND

2. Transform target to unpowered

3. Multiform to character with additional powers

 

The VPP has a number of limitations, including a SE of personality change.

 

This is similar to what I would do, normally. However, my original idea was to build Rogue or something close using only Sidekick, which does not have Variable Power Pools. Hence, the eight billion forms rather than the VPP.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Marvel's Rogue

 

I don't know if it was mentioned, but you could always buy 5 points in every Power and put Variable SFX (limited group; mutant) and a Limitation to represent it can only be used if boosted by Transfer. Then you can buy Transfer versus all mutant powers to all mutant powers with a really high maximum (linked to a Drain STUN). Since Transfer stops automatically once a target's Power is at 0, you never have to worry about getting too much, and you upper limit on any Power is you maximum.

 

I bit expensive, but is how I'd do it even with VPP (only the VPP would be used to buy 5 points of any given mutant power instead of having them all bought seperately).

 

The only problem is when the Powers Transferd have their own Advantages and Limitations on them. Although I suppose you could use a modified version of Can Affect Adders for that.

[Bluefire]

Re: Marvel's Rogue

 

This is similar to what I would do' date=' normally. However, my original idea was to build Rogue or something close using only Sidekick, which does not have Variable Power Pools. Hence, the eight billion forms rather than the VPP.[/quote']

 

If I may dredge up an old thread.... I too am looking at a way to represent Rogues abilities in Sidekick. Here is my take on it which requires some GM lienancy. Base Transfer is 15pts per 1d6, thats our "building block" so to speak. Agreed, there is not a VPP framework in Sidekick, but what I am purposing is this. Add 10pts per 1d6 raising the cost to 25pts per. The reason I added this amount is because its a "Blind advanage" that works as a VPP, but ONLY for the power transfered. It covers the pool cost and the control cost and still allows for a straight 1d6 of transfer.

 

To represent Rogue as seen in various sources, I would apply the uncontrolled limitation because she doesn't get to pick what power she absorbs. Also to represent the "knockout" effect, just link an END drain.

 

Just ideas I had, and thought I would bounce it off you guys. And Gamephil, there is no listing for Variable Special Effects in Sidekick yet its referenced a few times in the powers section.

 

Edit: Variable Special Effects is on page 37. But I still don't think that my idea is too "complicated" Rogue only gets to keep powers that she pays character pts for.

 

-Jason

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Marvel's Rogue

 

Well, here's my solutionm to "The Rogue Problem":

 

Transform (target into unconscious, powerless target), Side Effect: Transforms you into THEM.

 

Just allow for partial transformations, and there you go. Broken as all get out, but (shrug).

[Lord Beavis]

Re: Marvel's Rogue

 

My take is this.......for Rogue

 

Major Transform of natural (no technological or magical) powers, skills, talents, and characteristics leaving the subject incapacitated till Body returns. This attack requires Rogue to touch flesh of the victim.

 

Transform tranfers the powers, skills, talents, and characteristics to Rogue's variable power pool. Then they are assigned to Rogue unless Rogue's own equivelant power, skills, talents, or characteristics are equal or greater. If a power, skill, talent, or characteristic is equal or less, they are changed in AP and put in an END reserve.

 

You have just created a new power!!! I need to check with MIT for the math!!!

[Gadodel]

Re: Marvel's Rogue

 

This thread give me some ideas for Demonic Possession and so forth.

[Bluefire]

Re: Marvel's Rogue

 

This thread give me some ideas for Demonic Possession and so forth.

 

Possession and MASS mind control is easily done by making a Transform.

 

What happens when the "MasterMind" transforms all the fans in a football stadium to "fanatically loyal cannonfodder"? Heroes are going to have to figure out how to deal with 50,000 people that they don't want to hurt.