Starting from 8's in Primary Characteristics

[Steve]

According to the Hero 5th rulebook, the average person has 8's in their primary characteristics. Yet when designing a hero or superhero, the starting point is set at 10 instead. Has anyone ever run a campaign with the starting point for primary characteristics set at 8 instead of 10? Admittedly, we are only talking about 25 points (23 if you buy SPD up to 2 from 1.8), but it strikes me that it would be a method of helping to hold back stat inflation in Heroic level games (since it probably would not affect higher-pointed Superheroic games very much). A 10 would be something that required an investment of precious starting points, and a 13 or 15 would be more noteworthy than if the character had already started from 10 just by virtue of being a PC.

 

Anyone agree? Or am I a heretic for suggesting this?

[Ben Seeman]

Re: Starting from 8's in Primary Characteristics

 

Burn him! Burn him!

 

That's an interesting approach.

[Bengal]

Re: Starting from 8's in Primary Characteristics

 

This'll be a house rule in my next campaign, no matter whether it's heroic, superheroic, or incompentant normal. Good show.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Starting from 8's in Primary Characteristics

 

Are you giving the characters those 25 points for the reduction of starting Characteristics?

 

If you want to encourage characters having stats below 10, you could just start them with 25 points less than normal.

 

In any case, I wouldn't ever use this. Then again, I like running "heroic" adventure, where the player characters do have above average stats, even if above average means a 10.

[lemming]

Re: Starting from 8's in Primary Characteristics

 

Yep. Your average person has 8s. Your average hero starts at 10. At least that's my take on the matter.

[Steve Long]

Re: Starting from 8's in Primary Characteristics

 

Has anyone ever run a campaign with the starting point for primary characteristics set at 8 instead of 10?

 

AAMOF, our soon-to-be-published Fantasy setting, The Valdorian Age, has all characters starting out with 8s as a way of enforcing the Swords And Sorcery "feel" that Allen wanted for the campaign. It includes some notes and such about the implications of this approach and ways to tweak it if you like.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Starting from 8's in Primary Characteristics

 

Y'know... I'd bet almost anything that if you started a campaign with, say, 250 points and CHAs based at 10, almost no one would sell their non-character-conception-critical CHAs down below 10. But if you started it at 275 points and CHAs based at 8, almost no one would buy their non-character-conception-critical CHAs up beyond 8...

 

Players are weird.

[Lupus]

Re: Starting from 8's in Primary Characteristics

 

Y'know... I'd bet almost anything that if you started a campaign with, say, 250 points and CHAs based at 10, almost no one would sell their non-character-conception-critical CHAs down below 10. But if you started it at 275 points and CHAs based at 8, almost no one would buy their non-character-conception-critical CHAs up beyond 8...

 

Players are weird.

I concur. I feel that pull myself, and I'd be surprised if I were the only one.

 

I'm not weird, I'm completely normal.

[yamamura]

Re: Starting from 8's in Primary Characteristics

 

I concur. I feel that pull myself, and I'd be surprised if I were the only one.

 

I'm not weird, I'm completely normal.

 

What do you mean you are a dog with glowing eyes and the last time I check that is not normal;) But I do concur for heroic campaign starting at 8 is an interesting idea.

 

G

[zornwil]

Re: Starting from 8's in Primary Characteristics

 

I've thought about this as well, from when I first heard that normals were 8 which I didn't realize until 5th (I think it existed prior but it just never struck me). I think it would be good in a true low-end setting, for anything above street-level it might be a bit prohibitive. Maybe 9 for anything that isn't entirely low-end but isn't high-powered but you want to hold back on total point spend and stat inflation. I think the problem for anything high-powered is you're still going to get stat inflation, just possibly fewer stats inflated, but any stat they want high they will just boost highly. And for those stats they only raise a little from the 8 floor, they would have done the same from the 10 floor, and due to rounding it's not much of an impact if any, really.

 

Good topic.

[Steve]

Re: Starting from 8's in Primary Characteristics

 

AAMOF' date=' our soon-to-be-published Fantasy setting, [i']The Valdorian Age,[/i] has all characters starting out with 8s as a way of enforcing the Swords And Sorcery "feel" that Allen wanted for the campaign. It includes some notes and such about the implications of this approach and ways to tweak it if you like.

 

Actually, it was while I was reading through Valdorian Age that I got to thinking about this. I didn't mention it as the source of inspiration, since I wasn't sure it was allowed under the NDA.

 

Every calculation for CV or skill rolls gives you the same result at 8 as you get at 10, but there is this curious blind spot in Hero gamers when it comes to selling off characteristics. So you end up with scholarly wizards with a modestly buff 10 STR (as compared to an average human) or an unlettered fighter with a 10 INT, and other such oddities.

 

I would give the 25 points to a player as an addition to the starting points (say 175 instead of 150), but make them start from 8's in their stats and maybe starting at 5" of Running as well (to make up the 2 points spent to boost SPD to 2). Then they could choose to spend them on characteristics or other things. I would guess other things would eat up a portion of those points before they put them back into characteristics they don't plan to use much.

 

I also favor treating COM as a 2-point Perk or Penalty Level which affects certain Interaction skills and some PRE attacks, so it makes for a better scale to start at 8, then go to 12, 16 and 20 for bonuses (or more). Likewise, 4 and 0 COM giving penalties. Using five breakpoints like this gives a fair scale to use in showing general attractiveness.

[Bengal]

Re: Starting from 8's in Primary Characteristics

 

Ya all thinkin too much, 8's are just better. More authentic.

[Foxx!]

Re: Starting from 8's in Primary Characteristics

 

I like this idea, and I’m going to try it. Everyone says that most players buy Chars in 3s and 8s instead of 5s and 0s anyway.

 

Cheers!

[Enforcer84]

Re: Starting from 8's in Primary Characteristics

 

I've always been a 5/0 guy, myself.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Starting from 8's in Primary Characteristics

 

Me personally, I like to think that a characteristic of 10 is where the average man is supposed to be, but in actuality, most of us "couch potatos" tend to average around 8.

 

However, a reasonably in-shape, healthy person of average intelligence and charisma would score 10's in all the characteristics.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Starting from 8's in Primary Characteristics

 

I've always been a 5/0 guy' date=' myself.[/quote']

 

 

Book him, Danno!

 

You buy strength as 5/0 but most everything else as 8/3, or for DEX and EGO 5/8/11/14/17/20/23/26/29/32/...and repeat.

 

As Steve says an 8 DEX has the same CV as a 10 DEX. In fact an 8 characteristic has the same characteristic roll as a 12 characteristic.

 

I am in the habit of having sub-normal (i.e. sub 10) characteristics for fantasy characters where the points are in short supply and it makes sense in terms of the character, but I tend to buy every characteristic up at least a bit for superhero characters whether it is concept critical or not. I can't remember the last time I had a superhero with a 10 characteristic. 11 EGO is a must, or 14 if you have the points. At least 15 PRE, 13 INT, odd numbered BODY (if you are using impairment rules) STR, CON and DEX tend to be mission critical, and even if STR isn't, at least 13. COM of 12 or more.

 

Most superheroes I build don't have low characteristics: maybe low INT or COM if it is in character concept; I don't favour the thick brick type, but the odd scarred hero has crept through.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Starting from 8's in Primary Characteristics

 

You buy strength as 5/0 but most everything else as 8/3' date=' or for DEX and EGO 5/8/11/14/17/20/23/26/29/32/...and repeat.[/quote']One exception for values 17 and 32 on DEX and EGO... those are often worth buying to 18/33 to take advantage of the CHA-roll breakpoint.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Starting from 8's in Primary Characteristics

 

Me personally' date=' I like to think that a characteristic of 10 is where the average man is [i']supposed[/i] to be, but in actuality, most of us "couch potatos" tend to average around 8.

 

However, a reasonably in-shape, healthy person of average intelligence and charisma would score 10's in all the characteristics.

 

Call me Mr Cynical, but...

 

The average man can not lift 220lbs over their head without pushing! Working on STR, average people wouldn't have a strength of more than 5, probably less. Even strength 0 allows you to lift 55lbs which is beyond a lot of people.

 

Look at any TV quiz show and tell me if Mr Average has an INT roll as high as 11-. I don't think so...

 

I'd favour 'average' people having characteristics of 7, not 8, so they had poor but easily increased characteristic rolls and CV, and you have to be really careful with them in superhero games as they break so easily. They also make firearms look far more deadly. Hell, they make harsh language look deadly!

[Sean Waters]

Re: Starting from 8's in Primary Characteristics

 

One exception for values 17 and 32 on DEX and EGO... those are often worth buying to 18/33 to take advantage of the CHA-roll breakpoint.

 

Agreed, but I often leave them there to taunt myself and to give me something to spend my first couple of XP on.

 

The other advantage of buying an extra point is to get the initiave drop on all the other minimaxers out there.

 

Munchkin? Me? Surely you jest!

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Starting from 8's in Primary Characteristics

 

The average man can not lift 220lbs over their head without pushing!

Your STR score doesn't determine how much weight you can lift over your head... it determines how much you can just barely pick up, stagger a step or two, and drop.

[Dino]

Re: Starting from 8's in Primary Characteristics

 

Lowering starting STR to 8 may fix the lift problem, but it really aggrivates the weapon STR minimum problem. It's hard enough explaining why city guardsmen have STRs 5 pts higher than average to cover thier weapons without makeing it 7 pts!

[Sean Waters]

Re: Starting from 8's in Primary Characteristics

 

I don't know if you've ever picked up and swung a medieval sword, axe or pike, but you do need more than average strength to do so: that is why your basic constable with stick with a baton. If you want to draw a longbow, you start practicing when you are about 10, and build up. The fact that guardsmen can wield more effective weapons explains why they are the guardsmen, and the citizenry don't give them too much gyp.

 

You can pick up a sword and swing it with a strength under the minimum: you are taking additional OCV penalties through, so it probably isn't worth it.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Starting from 8's in Primary Characteristics

 

Your STR score doesn't determine how much weight you can lift over your head... it determines how much you can just barely pick up' date=' stagger a step or two, and drop.[/quote']

 

Fair enough, bur 220lbs is nearly 16 stone, and Mr and Mrs Average probably can't get that much off the floor at all.

[DreadDomain]

Re: Starting from 8's in Primary Characteristics

 

Call me Mr Cynical, but...

The average man can not lift 220lbs over their head without pushing! Working on STR, average people wouldn't have a strength of more than 5, probably less. Even strength 0 allows you to lift 55lbs which is beyond a lot of people.

 

STR 10 doesn't mean you can lift 220lbs over your head, it means you barely lift it off the ground and move it for a few step. Look in the Ultimate Brick pg 9. A clean & jerk would be 110 lbs (50%) and a snatch would be 88 lbs (40%).

[paigeoliver]

Re: Starting from 8's in Primary Characteristics

 

I think you guys are forgetting something.

 

The "average person" includes everyone, 11 year old girls, 60 year old men, 45 year old housewives who are 100 lbs overweight. You know EVERYONE.

 

So yes, the average score for humanity is an 8.

 

Humanity has A LOT of low ability score "dead weight" pulling down the average scores. Most of the elderly, children, and the vast hoards of mildly to majorly obese 35+ year old women who don't work, never really did, and have really low scores due to inactivity of both the body and mind (not as many men in this category for social reasons, since most men HAVE to work).

 

Different scores would have different averages for different ages if you really think about it. I always assumed all 10s would be normal scores for a normal active 30 year old.

 

People younger than that would tend towards higher dex, com and con with a slightly reduced int and pre. While people older would (mostly) have lower scores across the board with COM and con going first.