CPaladino Posted April 12, 2003 Report Share Posted April 12, 2003 I'm sure everyone's aware of the stir Mutans and Masterminds is making. Heck, I've played Champions since about 10-12 years ago, not playing anythign other than HERO since being exposed to HERO, and even I picked up M&M. I think what made ME buy it was the art/layout/production. It's a pretty small book under 200 pages, but it cost $30-$35 retail (I got it off of amazon for less, but still) which in my opinion is pricey for something like that, but it's a very pretty book to look at, and makes it more "fun" to read it. It made me want to buy the game. It's like the art/production made the game draw me in more. It brought back a spark of when I was a kid buying new RPGs for the first time. (The reason I bought Champions was the nice color cover of Seeker about to be crushed by DD). I guess my point is that it'd be nice to have some color and more comic-style artwork in the Champions/Hero books. I know they tried to go "comics" with that Fuzion Champions (whatever it was called) back a few years ago, but that made a lot of people made due to the Image-style of drawing where all the women had gigantic... assets, and would bend in that impossible pose where they showed off their breasts and buttocks at the same time. The art in M&M is very comic-book w/o being degrading to woman, or being childish/poor-manga. Is it just a matter of printing costs to try and keep the hero books down? I'd pay and extra $5-$10 to have some more stylish art in the book. I don't know how these things work, but glossy pages are nice (maybe they didn't do it cuz it'd crank the 5th ed. core book up to $60-$75 if it was glossy, I dunno.) I'm just making an observation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hermit Posted April 12, 2003 Report Share Posted April 12, 2003 Yeah, a lot of folks have lamented the lack of Color on Champions art, but so far, it's just not cost effective. I know Nate Barnes did some colorizing of the Champions in a free wall paper sample if you have a color printer that you can get on this site. Storn (who I believe has done Art for both M&M and Champions) has posted some color samples before, and some maybe on his site still. I know that's small comfort, but I figured it couldn't hurt to let you know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CPaladino Posted April 12, 2003 Author Report Share Posted April 12, 2003 I did see some of the free stuff, I was just saying that the way M&M took off I feel has to do in large part to it's artwork, and it may help Champs/hero as well. I do agree w/ the cost would skyrocket thought. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted April 12, 2003 Report Share Posted April 12, 2003 Color would be nice, and I can understand why that would make a difference to some people. For me it's not that important, and with my budget and the cost of RPG books today, I wouldn't appreciate paying an extra $10 or more per book just to get color. Companies like Green Ronin and Guardians of Order have put out flashy color core books for M&M and SAS, but I've noticed that they also print cheaper black-and-white editions. I get the impression that the color books are to get attention and draw people in (which seems to have had that effect on CPaladino). Perhaps those companies have decided that they can afford to reduce their profit margin on these books in order to arouse initial interest in the buying public. GR and GoO were both established publishers when their supers games came out, while DoJ/ Hero Games is essentially a startup company despite having purchased an existing property; DoJ probably has to be more careful about their initial capital expenditure. OTOH, I'd like to point out the large number of quality books that the new Hero Games has put out over the past year. Both M&M and SAS have been out longer than 5E Champions, and have two or three books in their line, not counting "special editions" of previously-published books. In less than a year, Hero has put out four major books just for Champions, not to mention the cross-genre books like the two Ultimates, the Bestiary and Ninja HERO, which have lots of stuff usable for a supers game. I'm not sure whether the greater expense of color would have impaired the company's ability to maintain that publishing schedule, but I do know that I'm very satisfied with the way things are going. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enforcer84 Posted April 14, 2003 Report Share Posted April 14, 2003 I'd vote for Color art in the books, but I will say this, the Art in Hero has been pretty darn good. I have no real complaints this time around, save for my twice voice continuity quibbles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Static UK Posted April 14, 2003 Report Share Posted April 14, 2003 The old Hero system adventure book, Zodiac, had a colour insert showing all the characters in colour. Their character sheets contained the same pictures, but in black and white (NOT greyscale!). The book looked good, but it was the only one that I know of that did a colour section. I would like some colour inserts, but with the general largeness of Hero books I think the price of books w/ colour would be quite high! If the art is going to be B/W I prefer it not to be in greyscale. I usually photocopy all the character sheets out of a book and store them alphabetically (by solo character or by team) in a series of ring-binders, that way I can just pop out the characters I need, rather then thumbing backwards and forwards through a book (or books) during a combat. Also if the art is not greyscale it makes it easier to colour in the illustration, and thus give the other players a better mental picture of who they are facing/ teaming up with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tclynch Posted April 14, 2003 Report Share Posted April 14, 2003 Well, I wouldn't look for any books already out to ever be done in color. I'd love to see future books go color. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Celtic Cowboy Posted April 14, 2003 Report Share Posted April 14, 2003 Originally posted by Lord Liaden Both M&M and SAS have been out longer than 5E Champions, M&M wasn't released until mid-late November last year. In less than a year, Hero has put out four major books just for Champions, not to mention the cross-genre books like the two Ultimates, the Bestiary and Ninja HERO, I have a slight concern that HERO could be going the way of WW in the regards of the "book of the month" club for gaming. I used to get some of the White Wolf stuff way back when they started, but then the floodgates opened and I couldn't keep up with it. I think that there's enough area's in the HERO product line that they won't saturate one genre. Of course that doesn't mean that I don't have all these lovely books. LOL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monolith Posted April 14, 2003 Report Share Posted April 14, 2003 Originally posted by Celtic Cowboy I have a slight concern that HERO could be going the way of WW in the regards of the "book of the month" club for gaming. I used to get some of the White Wolf stuff way back when they started, but then the floodgates opened and I couldn't keep up with it. I think that there's enough area's in the HERO product line that they won't saturate one genre. I think the fact that DOJ will be supporting 3 genres this year (with a 4th genre being added next year) is more than enough room for product diversity. As I look at the schedule for the remainder of this year I see 4 Champions books, 3 Fantasy Hero books, and 2 Star Hero books. That seems like a pretty good spread. The 2004 schedule even shows greater diversity. I also do not feel bad about the "book of the month" issue. Due to the volume of d20 publishers, their fans get about 15-20 books a month to choose from. HERO System fans get 1. Even with Gold Rush's San Angelo and the expanded 2004 schedule, we will still be looking at only 2 books a month (assuming 18 by DOJ and 6 by GRG - though I doubt they can do more than 3 a year). That is still a far cry from the d20 options available to those fans. At some point in time I would like to see 4 or 5 different publishers actively producing HERO System material. Then, IMO, there will be enough diversity. Right now I think DOJ is just giving the dedicated gamers the bare minimum to sustain life. I know that during the 3 months that Fantasy Hero material is being produced this year I will be in withdrawal from not having something to "truly" read. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbsousa Posted April 14, 2003 Report Share Posted April 14, 2003 How much would it cost to put out a four color pin-up book? I might be willing to buy a 64 page book with color versions of Champions, CU, and CKC artwork, divorced from the text... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Celtic Cowboy Posted April 14, 2003 Report Share Posted April 14, 2003 Originally posted by Monolith Due to the volume of d20 publishers, their fans get about 15-20 books a month to choose from. And of course trying to figure out what of those 15-20 books is worth the weight of the paper can be a challenge. The third party stuff is pretty easy to skip unless it has something that jumps out at you (Green Ronin - M&M for example) but when I was big into Forgotten Realms it was hard to pass up anything that came out. But then even that stuff started taking on the "we're putting this out because we need an FR product this month" type of feel and it got easier and easier to bypass the stuff. :-) Right now I think DOJ is just giving the dedicated gamers the bare minimum to sustain life. And right now I think they're doing good. It's a fine balance I think between enough stuff to keep interest going and turning out yet another book just because you need to fill out the production calendar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tiger Posted April 14, 2003 Report Share Posted April 14, 2003 I'd like to see some more publishers take it upon themselfs to put out good quality hero supplements. Not only just to have more option in what you can get you hands on, which would be good. There are also things out ther that don't fit into the DOJs outline of the universe, such as San Angelo, that would still be good material to have to work with. I think it would just give the GMs & players over the world more to work with. As in the past there were some great modules and materials made by other companies for Champions. I hope this could come around again. I have a feeling that some are waiting to see not only what DOJ does, but what the consumer does as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blue Posted April 14, 2003 Report Share Posted April 14, 2003 Call me crazy but I like the books as-is. A beautiful color wraparound cover and plenty of good b&w art. M&M is a fraction of the book that FREd is. Nobody wants to send a book to the marketplace with an outrageous price tage, so to make FREd fully color (Like M&M) they'd have to make it more cost effective by splitting the book into several smaller books, a la the PHB & DMG. And those two together don't seem to be as big as FREd. I, for one, like having all that stuff in the same book rather than having to guess which book something was in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crimson-Hawk Posted April 14, 2003 Report Share Posted April 14, 2003 I've given my opinion of the marketability of color RPGs (and my desire to see less of it so I can afford more RPG supplements) before. I've also been smacked down from on high because I didn't have my facts straight about how printing costs and product pricing actually worked. So, I'll shut up now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Celtic Cowboy Posted April 14, 2003 Report Share Posted April 14, 2003 Originally posted by Blue M&M is a fraction of the book that FREd is. Which at least 2 of my players insist is a good thing. On the flip side Freedom City costs about half again as much as Millenium City does for that nice color artwork, but it also has about half again as many pages. I, for one, like having all that stuff in the same book rather than having to guess which book something was in. Once you get past FREd that argument breaks down a bit though. There's already two supplements with martial arts material. As for color HERO books, CKC is the one I'd have loved to have been in fully color, with MC close behind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blue Posted April 14, 2003 Report Share Posted April 14, 2003 Originally posted by Celtic Cowboy Once you get past FREd that argument breaks down a bit though. There's already two supplements with martial arts material. True. Since there will always be supplements, I'm kind of trying to hold my argument to the core books... the ones needed to run the game. You can't play D&D w/o the DMG or PHB, but you can play Champions without anything else but FREd... including Champions and Champions Universe. As for color HERO books, CKC is the one I'd have loved to have been in fully color, with MC close behind. I've got to agree on your choice. CKC would be nice in color, though it's not necessary. I think that the way the costume looks (color and all) gives you a real feel for the character. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Celtic Cowboy Posted April 14, 2003 Report Share Posted April 14, 2003 Originally posted by Blue You can't play D&D w/o the DMG or PHB, but you can play Champions without anything else but FREd... Quite true and I seem to remember some frustration at this a few years ago when 3rd edition first game out and they didn't release the core books together. So not only did our DM have to get both books, he waited a month before doing anything with it since they didn't come out together. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nuadha Posted April 15, 2003 Report Share Posted April 15, 2003 Originally posted by Hermit Storn (who I believe has done Art for both M&M and Champions) has posted some color samples before, and some maybe on his site still. I know that's small comfort, but I figured it couldn't hurt to let you know. Actually, I'm pretty sure Storn does not have any art in M&M, although he has been posting art from the game he is running in M&M. Storn's art is a lot better in color and it would be nice to be able to see more of it, but I prefer books keep to a reasonable price. I almost didn't buy M&M because of its huge price tag. I'm glad I did and I think it is an excellent book, but I'd rather have line art or greyscale and pay $20. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Storn Posted April 15, 2003 Report Share Posted April 15, 2003 Nuadha is right. I have done work for Green Ronin, but for their fantasy lines, not M&M. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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