Mutant for Hire Posted March 7, 2005 Report Share Posted March 7, 2005 Re: Women! Is anyone but me getting flashbacks to the old "sexist language" flamewar we had once upon a time. Does anyone here but me remember that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paigeoliver Posted March 7, 2005 Report Share Posted March 7, 2005 Re: Women! Much more like 20 male gamers to every female and that is being generous. Although it isn't nearly as male dominated as my other hobby of arcade game collecting. There is currently literally only ONE known female arcade game collector out there, and 3 of her male friends collect games as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keithcurtis Posted March 7, 2005 Report Share Posted March 7, 2005 Re: Women! Is anyone but me getting flashbacks to the old "sexist language" flamewar we had once upon a time. Does anyone here but me remember that? Re-read post #16. Keith "If you have to explain the joke, it isn't funny" Curtis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toadmaster Posted March 7, 2005 Report Share Posted March 7, 2005 Re: Women! I wasn't looking to impose any kind of awkward grammar on anyone and I hope that's not how I came off. I'm not concerned with "correct," I'm concerned with "inclusive." Using male pronouns is certainly correct from a grammatical perspective, but at the end of the day it means that the text is talking about men, period. Inclusive language alternates pronouns. Whenever a generic or nonspecific example is used in the HERO book, a male pronoun is used. Why not swap? Why can't one example use "he" and the next example use "she"? It comes down to the current rules for the english language specify that the male pronoun is also the correct pronoun for generic use. It is not practical to alternate gender (what was the last one I used) and unfortunately I can see people counting the use of male vs female pronouns to show bias. I'm sorry if this means some people feel left out but perhaps somebody should explain the rule so they can worry about actual injustices instead of worrying about an ancient rule. Now if DOJ had said only male examples could be used I could see the issue, but that is not what they are doing, DOJ is only enforcing current proper english and I really don't see RPGs as the place to change an alleged sexist society. I hope this doesn't turn into "the thread that shall not be mentioned". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dino Posted March 7, 2005 Report Share Posted March 7, 2005 Re: Women! People generally do not picking up RPG or comic books for sexual arousal. I see you haven't purchased a comic book in the last decade and a half. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eosin Posted March 7, 2005 Report Share Posted March 7, 2005 Re: Women! I just want to post on page 2 to say "look, I was in on the ground floor of Gender Wars part II"- by tonight it will have devolved into a raging gender war whose scale boggles the mind. Can someone dig up a link to the nuclear melt down? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eosin Posted March 7, 2005 Report Share Posted March 7, 2005 Re: Women! People generally do not picking up RPG or comic books for sexual arousal. They beat my stash of National Geographic's from the 70's. Mmmmm Gen13.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DreadDomain Posted March 7, 2005 Report Share Posted March 7, 2005 Re: Women! Hm' date=' then I won't mention anything about that bard on the cover of D&D's [i']Song and Silence [/i]... Euh!?... Please do... (Damn, I am gonna have to look at this book to see what turns Hex on... ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Rose Posted March 7, 2005 Report Share Posted March 7, 2005 Re: Women! I wish I could have written the final episode, where it turns out that Mr. Peabody is an evil genius bent on twisting time just a little bit at a time to fit his master plan, and Sherman is his unwitting accomplice. (So much for serious boards) For those who like such things, one of the story arcs in Fred Perry's Gold Digger involves a representative of a race of hyper-intelligent canines (and his specially-bred human pet) using a hi-tech, jet-shaped time machine to alter history (specifically the invention of the dog whistle, but later the removal of the Digger sisters from existance). Always nice to see someone who appreciates the classics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Rose Posted March 7, 2005 Report Share Posted March 7, 2005 Re: Women! I just want to post on page 2 to say "look' date=' I was in on the ground floor of Gender Wars part II"[/i']- by tonight it will have devolved into a raging gender war whose scale boggles the mind. Can someone dig up a link to the nuclear melt down? Is it sad that I wanted to read the trainwreck that was the Gender in Writing mega-thread, but for some reason it grew so large that my computer literally couldn't seem to access the pages after about five or so? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DreadDomain Posted March 7, 2005 Report Share Posted March 7, 2005 Re: Women! I see you haven't purchased a comic book in the last decade and a half. Actually, it goes back to two months ago. Like I said, Catwoman, Wonder Woman, Black Cat or the Gen 13 characters are not the objects of my desires... My God! Maybe I am a robot!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DreadDomain Posted March 7, 2005 Report Share Posted March 7, 2005 Re: Women! I wasn't looking to impose any kind of awkward grammar on anyone and I hope that's not how I came off. Impose? No, no, of course not. My problem is with a nonfiction text (in this case an entire series of gaming books) using the male pronoun exclusively. The outdated rationale that the male pronouns are somehow neuter is totally bogus. When one writes "he' date='" one is referring to men, not men and women. This has been clearly demonstrated time and again in studies, surveys and a million graduate theses. Using one pronoun exclusively will inevitably alienate half of potential readers. This is NOT my opinion, this is NOT anecdotal--I can direct you to the articles, journals, theses and books which illustrate how this process works. [/quote'] I guess we are talking from a sociological point of view and not a grammatical one. I mean, using the male pronoun in a generic fashion is still the correct form right? I'm not concerned with "correct' date='" I'm concerned with "inclusive." Using male pronouns is certainly correct from a grammatical perspective, but at the end of the day it means that the text is talking about men, period. [/quote'] Not really, if "he" used in a generic fashion is still the (grammatical) correct form, it means the text is talking in a generic way about "someone". I hope nobody feels left out when the term "mankind" is used. If some people feels slighted by the use of "he", like Toadmaster said, maybe the rule should be explained to them. Inclusive language alternates pronouns. Whenever a generic or nonspecific example is used in the HERO book' date=' a male pronoun is used. Why not swap? Why can't one example use "he" and the next example use "she"?[/quote'] I personally feel it is intrusive. When I read a text written in a generic form, my brain is automatically set to "they are talking about someone in general, male or female, and that someone could even be me". When I read a text written in swapping fashion, what I read is more "they are talking about someone in particular but I have no clue who is this guy and who is this girl". Why? Conditionning I guess. Since this is how the english (or french for that matter) language is set, it just gets natural. Nobody has to tell me this "he" is generic, that one is specific. Most of the time it is self-evident. Half-assed compromises like "he/she" and "s/he" are clumsy' date=' ill-fitting and will never catch on in daily use. Learning to think of one's audience as more than white men [b']can[/b] catch on. Wouldn't it be like trying to fix what is not broken though? I mean don't get me wrong, I can understand and empathize with your position. If the rule gets changed someday, "he" can't be used in a generic way anymore and the swapping is the correct form, I won't mind and I will adapt. I just feel an author is making the right decision using the proper grammatical form and in the mean time, generic "he" is still the form. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yamamura Posted March 7, 2005 Report Share Posted March 7, 2005 Re: Women! Besides SUPERBABES there is a couple of other games/supplements that uses only the feminine pronoun just to be different. G Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Neilson Posted March 7, 2005 Report Share Posted March 7, 2005 Re: Women! Wouldn't it be like trying to fix what is not broken though? I mean don't get me wrong' date=' I can understand and empathize with your position. If the rule gets changed someday, "he" can't be used in a generic way anymore and the swapping is the correct form, I won't mind and I will adapt. I just feel an author is making the right decision using the proper grammatical form and in the mean time, generic "he" is still the form.[/quote'] Agreed. Guaranteed, if you swap the pronouns completely at random, someone will analyze all the "he" and all the "she" examples, and find "hidden meaning" in the allocation. If people are looking for a reason to be ofended, I guarantee they will find it every time. At most, a stock paragraph ("Throughout this publication, the male pronoun is used for generic references to entities which may be of either gender, neither or both. No offense is intended in this regard.") Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Neilson Posted March 7, 2005 Report Share Posted March 7, 2005 Re: Women! Much more like 20 male gamers to every female and that is being generous. hmmm...our Hero group has 6 people, one of whom is female. Our D&D group has 10, 4 of whom are female. [but we are light on aliens...to my knowledge] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sbarron Posted March 7, 2005 Report Share Posted March 7, 2005 Re: Women! At most' date=' a stock paragraph ("Throughout this publication, the male pronoun is used for generic references to entities which may be of either gender, neither or both. No offense is intended in this regard.")[/quote']Would someone ever actually intend offense through pronoun usage? How would that work? Seems like there would be more simple, more straightforward, and more clear ways to offend... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Neilson Posted March 7, 2005 Report Share Posted March 7, 2005 Re: Women! Would someone ever actually intend offense through pronoun usage? How would that work? Seems like there would be more simple' date=' more straightforward, and more clear ways to offend...[/quote'] I(ntending offense doesn't seem to be the issue in the modern world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blue Posted March 7, 2005 Report Share Posted March 7, 2005 Re: Women! Hm' date=' then I won't mention anything about that bard on the cover of D&D's [i']Song and Silence [/i]... I hope you know I had to go track down my copy just to see. He's a little more... "Fabio" than I expected to see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KA. Posted March 7, 2005 Report Share Posted March 7, 2005 Re: Women! I would like to hereby declare that I am personally offended by each and every man, woman, child, transgender, pre- and post- op transsexual, animal, plant, amino acid, artificial intelligence, and other living entity, that has ever and will ever exist. I am also offended by everything that anyone, or anything, has every said, written, thought, or conveyed by their facial expression, body language, mannerism, or tone. As I am alone in this declaration, I am also hereby the smallest group in existence, except for the group of non-existent entities, and I speak for them up until they choose to formally declare in writing that I do not. Therefore, I now claim my right to have everyone and everything live their lives in whatever manner happens to please me at the moment, with no regard for their own happiness, prosperity, or common sense. Anyone not following the above guidelines will be forever branded a NonKA.-centric KA.-ophobe, and will be detained by the thought police for re-education. Thank you for your time, begin sending money now. KA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just A Guy Name Posted March 7, 2005 Report Share Posted March 7, 2005 Re: Women! Call everyone "it". Then they can all be offended. That's equal treatment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Neilson Posted March 7, 2005 Report Share Posted March 7, 2005 Re: Women! I would like to hereby declare that I am personally offended by each and every man, woman, child, transgender, pre- and post- op transsexual, animal, plant, amino acid, artificial intelligence, and other living entity, that has ever and will ever exist. I am also offended by everything that anyone, or anything, has every said, written, thought, or conveyed by their facial expression, body language, mannerism, or tone. As I am alone in this declaration, I am also hereby the smallest group in existence, except for the group of non-existent entities, and I speak for them up until they choose to formally declare in writing that I do not. Therefore, I now claim my right to have everyone and everything live their lives in whatever manner happens to please me at the moment, with no regard for their own happiness, prosperity, or common sense. Anyone not following the above guidelines will be forever branded a NonKA.-centric KA.-ophobe, and will be detained by the thought police for re-education. Thank you for your time, begin sending money now. KA. Am I the only one that finds this offensive? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vondy Posted March 7, 2005 Report Share Posted March 7, 2005 Re: Women! Lucky = Zootsuit? You decide. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Mhoram Posted March 7, 2005 Report Share Posted March 7, 2005 Re: Women! Call everyone "it". Then they can all be offended. That's equal treatment. Well eunuchs wouldn't be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Man Posted March 7, 2005 Report Share Posted March 7, 2005 Re: Women! Is anyone but me getting flashbacks to the old "sexist language" flamewar we had once upon a time. Does anyone here but me remember that? I don't want to, the whole thing was stupid. Let's just drop it please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyMitchell Posted March 8, 2005 Report Share Posted March 8, 2005 Re: Women! Well eunuchs wouldn't be.Hmn...I think they still qualify as "he". They just don't care. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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