Older HERO rules in 5E games

[Lord Liaden]

Let me make one thing clear at the outset: overall I love HERO Fifth Edition. I love the clarity, I love the general consistency, I love all the new options. I consider it a step up from Fourth Edition, which I also loved.

 

Notheless, there are a few changes, additions or omissions from earlier parts of the ruleset that just don't feel right to me, or leave me going when I try to understand why they were made. In some cases I've ported rules from earlier editions of HERO which I felt dealt with elements better than the 5E default. I'm not talking about just changing the current rules to work "my way," but actually using rules that were previously official in place of or in addition to ones that are official now.

 

Some recent rules discussions here on the boards have left me curious as to what older rules some of you might have brought into your 5E games, and what you think using them does to improve your HERO gaming experience. If possible I'd prefer to avoid rants against any of the present rules that irk you - constructive input would be more welcome.

 

Let me start with a few of my most notable ones:

 

Regeneration. The official build uses complicated Modifiers to create a very specific effect, yet the end result still violates the rule limiting the maximum that can be Healed based on the number of Healing dice you buy. I've continued to use 4E Regeneration, but also apply the new Adders and Limitations for Healing. Generally more expensive, but the simplicity of it is worth it to me and my players.

 

Shockwaves. The rules for creating Shockwaves from Champions III wonderfully simulate the classic comic-book effect, with all its benefits and restrictions, moreso IMO than creating a separate Power build for it. I've allowed any characters in my supers game to generate a Shockwave with Strength or any Body-damaging Power; however, they need to buy a +1/4 Advantage to their attack in order to do so reliably. Alternatively, they can improvise a rare Shockwave with successful use of the Power Skill.

 

Self-Inflicted Damage. I use a modified version of this rule from 'way back in the original (pre-Fourth Edition) Golden Age of Champions. As it stands in 5E there's no detrimental effect on a normal human trying to punch his way through a brick wall, unless you want to give every wall and other hard object its own Damage Shield. This rule provides a simple, easy to use way to adjudicate hurting yourself when hitting anything with Resistant Defenses (including supertough characters - remember the last scene with the diner bully in Superman II?)

 

So, what elder HERO arcana have you resurrected?

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: Older HERO rules in 5E games

 

What I use out of older Editions:

 

4th Ed Damage Sheild - no need to discuss, it's been done to death on the boards.

4th Ed Regen - for the above reasons.

I plan to use the "simplified shapeshifting" in UMM, which is basically the 4th ed version, alongside 5th ed shapeshifting.

I use and odd mix of 3rd and 5th versions for ECs- I keep the "drain one drain them all" from 5th, but I don't go double from draining the EC itself, and allow just about any power in the EC similar to third.

[Supreme Serpent]

Re: Older HERO rules in 5E games

 

Our FTF group uses 4th ed anyways. Now that I'm moving to doing things on HeroCentral, carryovers I'd allow/suggest include:

 

*old Instant Change

 

*5pt Detective Work - don't have to buy criminology, streetwise, deduction, etc just to figure something out. If you want to be as good as Batman, sure. If you want to be Daredevil, no.

 

Not as familiar yet with some of the differences, but probably the previously suggested ones (damage shield, regen, shockwave) as well.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Older HERO rules in 5E games

 

Pretty minor bits and pieces, really:

 

I'm not happy about regeneration but I'm thinking 10 points (as was) is a bit expensive. Mind you 5 points is a bit cheap and I'm not happy about building a base power that starts as a non-multiple of 5. Maybe I'll make it 10 points and require 'Self Only' (-1/2)

 

Instant change is 5 points for a costume or 10 for a complete change of form

 

Adjustment powers fade at 5 points per power/characteristic aided/drained NOT 5 points per application per turn

 

Grabs do not require an attack roll once in place

 

Grabs and entangles do not stop you flying unles they are anchored or the flight is bought wih an appropriate limitation

 

N-Ray pereption is a 20 point adder to a sense not a sense in its own right

 

Find weakness requires you to define the in-game effect that you are finding weakness in NOT the metagame power type.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Older HERO rules in 5E games

 

I like the automatic OCV bonus for Autofire attacks from 3rd edition.

[Edsel]

Re: Older HERO rules in 5E games

 

Actually I think that dates all the way back to 1st edition rules. Paraphrasing the old rules:

Autofire (+1/4) Advantage. +4 OCV, Range Modifier is halved. 1 hit per 2 points the die roll is made by. Autofire was 10 shots anytime it was used.

Selective fire (+1/2) Advantage. The only difference was that you could choose to fire a single shot or autofire.

We use a variation of this in our campaign, which is heroic using guns. You get an OCV bonus based on the number of shots in your Autofire. It takes more than a mere three-shot burst to gain a bonus. Something like a mini-gun gets a really big bonus.

 

We also used the old rules for Piercing but these were reintroduced as optional rules in the new Dark Champions. I was very happy to see this.

 

I have thought about looking over the old vehicle rules from the old Champions II book. I never used vehicles much at all but I know another GM who holds them in much higher regard than the new vehicle rules.

[Andrew Cermak]

Re: Older HERO rules in 5E games

 

Self-Inflicted Damage. I use a modified version of this rule from 'way back in the original (pre-Fourth Edition) Golden Age of Champions.

 

What is this rule, exactly? I've thought about adding a rule for this myself, but haven't settled on anything.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Older HERO rules in 5E games

 

We also used the old rules for Piercing but these were reintroduced as optional rules in the new Dark Champions. I was very happy to see this.

 

Oh yeah, I like those.

 

I have thought about looking over the old vehicle rules from the old Champions II book. I never used vehicles much at all but I know another GM who holds them in much higher regard than the new vehicle rules.

 

And those.

 

I really like the rules for Variable Advantage from first edition Fantasy Hero, and have thought about halving END per level of reduced END rather than going to half then zero.

 

Oh yeah, and a certain set of robot design rules.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Older HERO rules in 5E games

 

Right after 4th ed came out I came up with an optional Autofire rule to help transition the campaign without rewriting the (literally) hundreds of guns I had written up for our Star Hero campaign. I still use it in some campaigns.

Spreading Autofire against a single target-

When attacking a single target with an autofire attack, the attacker may spread the attack, gaining a +1 OCV for every shot that is "spread", thus reducing the total number of potential hits by 1 per +1. Thus a standard autofire(5) attack may be spread against a single target to a maximum of +4 OCV, with 1 hit possible.

 

allows AF attacks to potentially have the OCV bonus without unbalancing the game, and improves the utility of higher ROF autofire attacks (how often does a 10 shot autofire really make its attack roll by 20 freaking points?)

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Older HERO rules in 5E games

 

What is this rule' date=' exactly? I've thought about adding a rule for this myself, but haven't settled on anything.[/quote']

 

When you strike an object with Resistant Defenses (including all solid inanimate objects, and optionally some living creatures), you roll for damage normally. If the total Body damage that you roll is more than the total Resistant Defense of the target, you affect the target normally and suffer no ill effects. However, if your total Body damage is less than or equal to the Resistant Defense of the target, you yourself take damage from your attack (minus your own Defense) as if you had performed a Move Through on the target.

 

So, if you strike an inanimate object and do enough damage to break it, it doesn't hurt you. If you don't do enough damage, Ouch! This can be an explanation for all those martial artists who break boards, concrete blocks and the like without hurting themselves. It can also work as a weapon-breaker when striking something with weapons. And in supers games it simulates a normal person trying to punch a being with flesh as hard as stone or steel.

 

If you want this effect to be mostly for flavor, the attacker takes half damage as with a successful Move Through (the original form of the rule). If you want it to be a real deterrent to characters trying to haymaker a wall and the like, the attacker takes full damage as if the target of the Move Through was not Knocked Back. If you're using Hit Locations in your game, the amount of damage can be modified by the Hit Location of the body part used to strike with. (Hitting something with your head may send you to lala land, or the hospital.)

[Ockham's Spoon]

Re: Older HERO rules in 5E games

 

Okay, the self-inflicted damage rule is a must! How did that ever get dropped? I guess for Supers it isn't in the genre, but for everything else, definitely!

 

I really like the Autofire +1 OCV per "spread" shot. Not only does it make 10 shot Autofire worthwhile, but it makes intuitive sense that someone with a machine gun is going to have an easier time hitting with a hail of bullets than with a single shot.

 

Maybe I read 5th Ed. Regeneration incorrectly, but I thought it did have a cap; if I have 3d6 Healing bought as regeneration, I can't regenerate more than 9 BDY. Am I wrong? Admittedly regeneration is more expensive 5th Ed. but that was because it was kind of unbalanced. Anyway the new regeneration makes sense to me, if perhaps a bit more complicated than before.

 

I kind of liked the old Reduced END rule, where you just kept dividing the END cost in half every time you applied the advantage. It made sense that really powerful attacks would have to have a lot more Reduced END to bring them down to zero. The new way is much simpler (definite plus) but makes it kind of all or nothing (well, all, half, or nothing). I build powers now with Reduced END on only half the power to get around this, but that is kind of a pain too sometimes.

 

________________________________________________________

"Some people spread happiness wherever they go. Others, whenever they go." - Oscar Wilde

[Toadmaster]

Re: Older HERO rules in 5E games

 

The old 3rd ed gun combat rules were better, grenade attacks were 2 parts an explosion and fragmentation, not just a KA with explosion. Shotguns were several small attacks (4x 1d6+1) that changed with range.

 

AF as already mentioned

 

I remember liking the vehicle rules in DI better than 4th ed or the current rules, and as I recall Champions Autoduel had a very good vehicle rules (I lost my copy many years ago).

 

I am seriously thinking about borrowing many of the vehicle movement rules from carwars and working them into HERO if I ever run a vehicle heavy game.

[Rapier]

Re: Older HERO rules in 5E games

 

To be totally honest, I have no idea.

 

When we first moved to Fifth, we sat down and discussed the pros and cons of some of the changes and adopted some and ignored others. At this point I couldn't tell you which was which.

 

But it was just in the past few months we dropped the -1 OCV for moving in a phase. It seems we had been doing that for a REAL long time!

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Older HERO rules in 5E games

 

I think that -1 OCV for moving disappeared in fourth edition.

[Roland]

Re: Older HERO rules in 5E games

 

In my Fantasy Hero campaign, we have continued using the 4E weapon tables by unanimous consensus.

 

The 5E change that has drawn the most complaints is Combat Sense, which jumped from 3 points to 15 points, with a write-up that makes it more like a psychic ability than a skill (since it's not based on natural senses).

[Black Rose]

Re: Older HERO rules in 5E games

 

Spreading Autofire against a single target-

When attacking a single target with an autofire attack, the attacker may spread the attack, gaining a +1 OCV for every shot that is "spread", thus reducing the total number of potential hits by 1 per +1. Thus a standard autofire(5) attack may be spread against a single target to a maximum of +4 OCV, with 1 hit possible.

I agree with Ockham's Spoon; this is a really good rule. It makes sense and isn't overpowered. I do wonder if it might become a problem with people using it at cheap OCV, but I'm guessing the END cost balances that out.

[Rick]

Re: Older HERO rules in 5E games

 

I'm not a hard core realist, but I've heard such contrary reports on the accuracy of autofire weapons, that even 3 round bursts can negativly impact accuracy, let alone full auto. I've know soldiers who prefered to use single shot rifles, their more accurate and save ammo (Note Im not a soldier)...I'm sorry I don't want to thread Jack.

 

I like the 4th edition Damage shields.

[Toadmaster]

Re: Older HERO rules in 5E games

 

I'm not a hard core realist, but I've heard such contrary reports on the accuracy of autofire weapons, that even 3 round bursts can negativly impact accuracy, let alone full auto. I've know soldiers who prefered to use single shot rifles, their more accurate and save ammo (Note Im not a soldier)...I'm sorry I don't want to thread Jack.

 

I like the 4th edition Damage shields.

 

Apples and oranges, a single well aimed shot is more accurate, the three round burst is actually based on the idea of inaccuracy, the three rounds will each have a slightly different flight path making a larger area to make up for aiming errors, think of it kind of like a shotgun. If you have the budget for training it is more effective to teach your people to shoot well, if not then you get them shotguns and autoweapons. Some confusion also results because machineguns are designed to provide a differant kind of fire than a rifle or smg with 3 round burst, machineguns use auto fire to fill an area with bullets either to attack many targets quickly or to make an area intolerable to the enemy (suppresive fire), 3 round burst is intended to improve the chance of a hit.

 

I now return you to your regularly scheduled thread.

[Rapier]

Re: Older HERO rules in 5E games

 

I think that -1 OCV for moving disappeared in fourth edition.

 

Yep, just goes to show you how ingrained some things can get!

[Seenar]

Re: Older HERO rules in 5E games

 

These are my current house rules:

 

http://www.seenar.com/House%20Rules.htm

 

A work in progress to be sure

[zornwil]

Re: Older HERO rules in 5E games

 

Animal Handler is as in 4th edition except that it is a PRE-based skill.

 

Martial Arts is a derivative of the 1st/2nd edition's advantage on STR.

 

The spirit of 4th edition minimums should be observed.

 

Inherent should generally be unnecessary/has no effect. Please advise if you see a need/requirement. (i.e., things are as they were in prior editions, more or less)

 

Mental powers by default work on any sentient mind, they do not need to be bought by class of being as in 5th edition. However, they work only to the extent that communication is possible (which is always how I have interpreted it). Selecting animals or aliens as the only class of mind affected would be a limitation.

 

Aid functions as in 4th edition.

 

Hand-to-Hand strike from 4th edition (3 points per 1d6) remains.

 

Healing continues to be constructed as 4th edition normal Aid.

 

Life Support may remain as in 4th edition but new/individual items from 5th edition may be selected. The bottom line is that 30 points may still provide complete Life Support.

 

Regeneration is alive and well as per 4th edition.

 

Shape Shift mostly functions as in 4th edition; I didn't care for the minutiae in sensing rules either in spirit or in practice. However, the 5th edition Adders are valid.

 

Damage Shield does not require an additional +1/4 advantage to do damage with HTH (notably, though, the 5th edition rules probably express the intent of 4th upon rereading that edition).

 

Penetrating attacks are affected by Damage Reduction.

 

Not sure if this was in 4th/prior? - you may voluntary reduce your SPD to 1.

 

-1/3" for ranged attacks

 

STR-based Haymakers work as in 4th edition. Non-STR-based Haymakers may be executed according to 5th edition. Again, this all-out or aimed-but-non-defensive strike is genre-correct. Like most of these 5th edition adaptations, we will of course be monitoring and I am open to discussion.

[Vondy]

Re: Older HERO rules in 5E games

 

Regeneration: 4th Edition, but 5th Edition mods apply.

Damage Shield: 4th Edition.

 

As for house rules, I'll avoid posting those here as they're in the How Far Have You Gone thread.

[Threnody]

Re: Older HERO rules in 5E games

 

The spirit of 4th edition minimums should be observed.

This one makes my GM foul-mouthed! She hates the whole idea of minimums, and says tossig them was in the top 5 Best Changes In Fred.

 

Hand-to-Hand strike from 4th edition (3 points per 1d6) remains.

Yeah, my GM went back to that; simpler than the required Lim and all that guff.

 

Not sure if this was in 4th/prior? - you may voluntary reduce your SPD to 1.

Don't know, but my GM allows it.

 

Shape Shift mostly functions as in 4th edition; I didn't care for the minutiae in sensing rules either in spirit or in practice. However' date=' the 5th edition Adders are valid.[/quote']

Oh man, don't get me started. That whole "by Sense Group" guff nearly broke my brain trying to figure it. I coulda wept!

 

When my GM said she did it by 4th Ed., I was dancing! Course, all those Adders and Advs are neato, and my GM uses them, but the core of the Power is all 4th, baby.

[casualplayer]

Re: Older HERO rules in 5E games

 

There's a whole lotta "You can have my BBB when you pry it from my cold, dead fingers" shining through on this thread. Music to my ears.

[Egyptoid]

Re: Older HERO rules in 5E games

 

you could theoretically build everything in 5E rules,

and apply limitations so that it works just like 4th ed.

 

I mean you can build anything with Hero system, even old versions of the Hero System.

 

Now its yet another compiler compiler.