Has HERO achieved maximum desirable complexity?

[zornwil]

A recent proposal from Phil Fleischmann (sp, and apologies as I'm not looking directly at the name if I got it wrong) inspired me to wonder if people think that HERO has achieved a point where more complexity would be okay, in that there might be worthwhile causes left to pursue at the expense of introducing more complexity, or if HERO has achieved a point where any further complexity should be avoided pretty much at all cost, that if there is a worthy cause, then it must include reducing complexity somewhere else if it increases complexity in any one area.

 

By the way, I'm not suggesting that Phil F.'s opinion is one way or the other or that the particular issue weighs in on this, per se, though his answer seems to indicate to me he's likely in the former camp.

 

Personally, I'm in the latter camp. I think we've achieved the end of the road and further complexity, in the core rulebook, is so undesirable it should be avoided at pretty much all cost. I link this to my fear of GURPSizing HERO.

 

Just curious what others think.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Has HERO achieved maximum desirable complexity?

 

I think you think too much

 

I'm with you - we should avoid further complexity at all costs, GURPSizing is a good term for it.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Has HERO achieved maximum desirable complexity?

 

I also agree. While I'm not eager to see Hero "dumbed down," I also think it's plenty complex now. In fact, I think there are some areas of the rules where it's probably too complex already... areas where we've opted for detail over consistency, but where we perhaps should have opted for consistency.

 

Just for one example, I think the rules for adding damage certainly should not get any more complex, and are very likely too complex already. There are multiple, slightly different, ways of adding various kinds of damage in various ways and for various purposes. If anything, that area of the rules should be consolidated, simplified, and streamlined, IMO.

[Lucius]

Has HERO achieved maximum desirable complexity?

 

I also agree. While I'm not eager to see Hero "dumbed down," I also think it's plenty complex now. In fact, I think there are some areas of the rules where it's probably too complex already... areas where we've opted for detail over consistency, but where we perhaps should have opted for consistency.

 

Just for one example, I think the rules for adding damage certainly should not get any more complex, and are very likely too complex already. There are multiple, slightly different, ways of adding various kinds of damage in various ways and for various purposes. If anything, that area of the rules should be consolidated, simplified, and streamlined, IMO.

 

I'm with you on that one!

 

As for the more general issue, I'll have to think about it.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

And the palindromedary ruminates

[Rapier]

Re: Has HERO achieved maximum desirable complexity?

 

While there are some games out there I think could use more complexity (most particularly the tri-statters).

 

But I don't think Hero is one of them. Hero already does a pretty decent job of describing events with a certain complexity. At this point, any further complexity should have some SERIOUS bang for the buck.

 

A good deal of my feelings in this matter are because I'm strictly a GM. Any more complexity means that I end up handling more facts and figures while my players ease through it all with nary a sweat.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Has HERO achieved maximum desirable complexity?

 

I think that "complexity" might not be the right word to use.

 

Just as another thread has pointed out the "hidden template" for character creation, I believe there is also a set of decisions that GM's must make ahead of time that either do not have clearly defined system defaults or if they do they have campaign implications that are not very obvious up front (Hit Locations, powers with absolute effects like desolidification, invisibility, shapeshift, darkness, etc...). Most other systems don't force a GM to make as many of these kinds of decisions up front as they usually have a consistent set of them already built in.

[zornwil]

Re: Has HERO achieved maximum desirable complexity?

 

Interesting, I hadn't thought of it that way. Personally, that doesn't bother me at all at this point, although that's admittedly a bias on my part that I don't expect so many to share. Great comment (repped)!

[cutsleeve]

Re: Has HERO achieved maximum desirable complexity?

 

It could be alot more complexe then it already is. Imagine If the next edition was called

 

011010000110010101110010011011110010000001110011011110010111001101110100011001010110110100100000001011010010000001110011011010010111100001110100011010000010000001100101011001000110100101110100011010010110111101101110001000000010110100100000011101000110100001100101001000000111010101101100011101000110100101101101011000010111010001100101001000000110011101100001011011010110010101110010011100110010000001110100011011110110111101101100011010110110100101110100

 

translated it means "hero system - sixth edition - the ultimate gamers toolkit"

 

the binary edition

 

its nickname for it would be "Weighty Text Format" or abreviated WTF

 

It would cost a bit more then the standard 5er but the cost includes the crane you have to use to carry it to your saturday night gaming session.

 

Of course die hard Hero fans would have mixed reviews about all the changes to rules and costs. However it will generally be heralded as the greatest edition so far. Once again being awarded best rpg system ever made.

 

Of course people who play other systems will scoff at the shear size and complexity of the new hero system. They will complain about how the math is to hard and complicated in character creation, and that they are happy playing their own games in the easy to understand format of egyptian hieroglyphes. Plus they will also say their systems will play better because its printed on very flimsy easy to tear, but highly glossy and fancy looking paper.

 

That is until the ultimate rpg is reprinted "it came from the late late late show 2nd edition" People wont actually play theyll sorta bow down to it and worship it as a god.

[Black Rose]

Re: Has HERO achieved maximum desirable complexity?

 

I also agree. While I'm not eager to see Hero "dumbed down," I also think it's plenty complex now. In fact, I think there are some areas of the rules where it's probably too complex already... areas where we've opted for detail over consistency, but where we perhaps should have opted for consistency.

 

Just for one example, I think the rules for adding damage certainly should not get any more complex, and are very likely too complex already. There are multiple, slightly different, ways of adding various kinds of damage in various ways and for various purposes. If anything, that area of the rules should be consolidated, simplified, and streamlined, IMO.

I'm going to agree with you as well. This is where I think the best efforts could be made. As much as I love the level of detail HERO provides, I acknowledge that it's best use is as a game builder. I think that perhaps we should be looking for ways to help prospective GMs and Players build their own games easier. A guide to making decisions on what rules should and should not be used, and advice on setting tone and feel.

 

Scarily enough, I think what I'm suggesting is the HERO equivalent of a World of Darkness Storyteller's Guide; less hard rules and numbers and more balances and ramifications.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Has HERO achieved maximum desirable complexity?

 

Hmmm. Maximum desirable complexity? I'm not sure that there is such a thing.

 

I suppose there is a level of detail that provides enough control over the feel of the game beyond which you have detail that requires the GM and possibly players to make too many meta decisions before they get to the good stuff.

 

If I'm playing a game I don't want it to be difficult (a commonly used synonym for complex), I want it to be fun.

 

I'm not sure that some aspects of Hero haven't fallen down that side of too much to think about.

 

Like everyone else who has posted so far, I wouldn't mind a bit more broadbrush basic Hero system with guidance on how to go into detail if necessary. (Personally I think this is simply a book along the lines of the one Sean was suggesting in another thread).

 

 

Doc

[BigJackBrass]

Re: Has HERO achieved maximum desirable complexity?

 

The more one uses HERO the less of an issue its complexity seems to be. It is, after all, generally straightforward, but with lots and lots of layers of detail. I think a larger problem than whether things should get more complex or not is that the system suffers from an aura of perceived complexity. We often ask what could be done to get new gamers into HERO: for many of them actually getting them to understand that the game is not a mathematical nightmare would probably do it. Everyone seems to agree that HERO can "do it all" but the general view leans heavily towards there being a great cost in complexity.

 

That aside, for me the system is plenty complex / detailed enough right now.

[Eosin]

Re: Has HERO achieved maximum desirable complexity?

 

Put me in the camp of stream lining the current rules. I appreciate all the text and examples but I would like a core book that doesn't scare the tar out of novice Hero gamers. I guess that is Sidekick....

 

Otherwise, I am all for new rules to suit new situations with the caveat that the rules need to be needed.

[Zephrosyne]

Re: Has HERO achieved maximum desirable complexity?

 

I have to agree that the rules for damage are just too much. I just read them last night for the first time in a while. I just don't understand why it was necessary to make them so complicated. I don't think that they are hard, nothing in Hero System really is, but I do feel that they are unnecessarily tedious. Was there some sort of a balance issue with a previous edition?

[Gary]

Re: Has HERO achieved maximum desirable complexity?

 

I have to agree that the rules for damage are just too much. I just read them last night for the first time in a while. I just don't understand why it was necessary to make them so complicated. I don't think that they are hard' date=' nothing in Hero System really is, but I do feel that they are unnecessarily tedious. Was there some sort of a balance issue with a previous edition?[/quote']

 

 

It all boils down to Str being 'too cheap' and thus additional rules to give added utility to HAs and Martial Arts were needed to keep them semi-competitive with Str.

 

After all, what would you rather have, 3d6 HA for 10 pts, or +15 Str and sell back 5 Stun for the same cost? Thus the reason for the generous rules of adding Str to Advantaged HAs.

[MitchellS]

Re: Has HERO achieved maximum desirable complexity?

 

It all boils down to Str being 'too cheap' and thus additional rules to give added utility to HAs and Martial Arts were needed to keep them semi-competitive with Str.

 

After all, what would you rather have, 3d6 HA for 10 pts, or +15 Str and sell back 5 Stun for the same cost? Thus the reason for the generous rules of adding Str to Advantaged HAs.

I have no problem calling HtH Damage: +15 STR, No Figured Characteristics: -1/2, Damage Only: -0 as long as how all the damage adds makes sense. Right now you need a flowchart to understand how damage adds from various str, hth, martial arts, and killing attacks.

[BarryB]

Re: Has HERO achieved maximum desirable complexity?

 

I think it is quite complex enough. I enjoy complexity; I revel in complexity. But I doubt that most share my feelings.

 

Ultimately, I'd like to see the rules set up as configuration files for some future version of Herosphere. People can turn on or off or set values for the options as desired in the configuration file. The computer handles the rules appropriately.

[DreadDomain]

Re: Has HERO achieved maximum desirable complexity?

 

I also agree. While I'm not eager to see Hero "dumbed down," I also think it's plenty complex now. In fact, I think there are some areas of the rules where it's probably too complex already... areas where we've opted for detail over consistency, but where we perhaps should have opted for consistency.

 

Just for one example, I think the rules for adding damage certainly should not get any more complex, and are very likely too complex already. There are multiple, slightly different, ways of adding various kinds of damage in various ways and for various purposes. If anything, that area of the rules should be consolidated, simplified, and streamlined, IMO.

 

Let me echo that opinion. Adding damage is probably the current worst offender in the category of "overcomplexity which doesn't bring much". I personally feel Hero is complex enough. I don't feel it is really complex but then again I've been playing it for so long it just naturally make sense to me.

 

I do not agree with Zornwil that GURPSizing = more complexity. GURPS in my opinion is no more complex than Hero. More detailed in certain areas (skills, advantages, disadvantages) but not really more complex. Like Hero, it just needs a few rules simplified for the sake of gamability (like the throwing distance rule for instance). I don't feel GURPS is really complex but then again I've been playing it for so long it just naturally make sense to me.

[Ben Seeman]

Re: Has HERO achieved maximum desirable complexity?

 

Ultimately' date=' I'd like to see the rules set up as configuration files for some future version of Herosphere. People can turn on or off or set values for the options as desired in the configuration file. The computer handles the rules appropriately.[/quote']

*shudders

 

actually, that's a wonderful idea. unfortunately it would require a complete rewrite of the Herosphere code. but it is something to consider.

[zornwil]

Re: Has HERO achieved maximum desirable complexity?

 

Let me echo that opinion. Adding damage is probably the current worst offender in the category of "overcomplexity which doesn't bring much". I personally feel Hero is complex enough. I don't feel it is really complex but then again I've been playing it for so long it just naturally make sense to me.

 

I do not agree with Zornwil that GURPSizing = more complexity. GURPS in my opinion is no more complex than Hero. More detailed in certain areas (skills, advantages, disadvantages) but not really more complex. Like Hero, it just needs a few rules simplified for the sake of gamability (like the throwing distance rule for instance). I don't feel GURPS is really complex but then again I've been playing it for so long it just naturally make sense to me.

To me, the difference is that GURPS has more exceptional conditions (powers working in different ways), nuances (such as skills relationships/influences), and different "handling rules," (differing types of damage and treatment of damage per SFX-bases) lacking as much consistency as HERO, even if in some instances it's technically more realistic.

[Toadmaster]

Re: Has HERO achieved maximum desirable complexity?

 

I think HERO is almost perfect as is but a complete rewrite could offer some advantage, there are a few places where the supers part of the game shows through (cheap STR is one, SPD is another), as a result as the system has moved towards a generic system rules have been added to de-superfy some of the game. This could reduce some of the complexity and streamline it but also runs the risk of creating a completely new game (fusion anyone ).

 

On the other hand I do think there are some aspects of the game that could use more complexity, or at least need more than we currently have. Vehicles really need help, I can not imagine having any fun using HERO for a vehicle heavy game (carwars, WW1 aces, starship combat etc), a single slow moving vehicle like a tank sort of works but a running car chase would not be much fun and I would probably end up using the rules out of another game. More rules for playing at low point levels (50+50 and lower) would probably help too, a low level campaign can be done but it is more work than it should be and the characters tend to blur together since their isn't alot of room for differances.

 

But for the most part I think it does what it is intended to do well and I can't see to many areas where THE RULES need to be more complex, more emphasis on how things are built and the effect of different builds has would solve alot of issues I see on the boards though, I'm not sure if you would consider that more complexity or not?

[Kristopher]

Re: Has HERO achieved maximum desirable complexity?

 

I think HERO is probably as complex as it will ever need to be.

 

There is a bit of a contradiction between the abstract, do-your-thing tone of the base book, and the extra restrictions and warnings on some of the powers.

[Rapier]

Re: Has HERO achieved maximum desirable complexity?

 

It all boils down to Str being 'too cheap' and thus additional rules to give added utility to HAs and Martial Arts were needed to keep them semi-competitive with Str.

 

Good god, would you leave that poor animal alone?

 

Waitress: White or wheat toast with your eggs?

Gary: Did you know Strength is too cheap and should cost 2 points?

 

I mean I might be able to understand not being able to drop the topic if you just weren't SO wrong!

[Gary]

Re: Has HERO achieved maximum desirable complexity?

 

Good god, would you leave that poor animal alone?

 

Waitress: White or wheat toast with your eggs?

Gary: Did you know Strength is too cheap and should cost 2 points?

 

I mean I might be able to understand not being able to drop the topic if you just weren't SO wrong!

 

 

I was giving an answer on why the adding damage rules were so complex.

 

Anyway, which would you prefer, +3d6 HA or +15 Str and sell back 5 Stun? They both cost the same.

 

 

 

You've been spying on me haven't you?

[BarryB]

Re: Has HERO achieved maximum desirable complexity?

 

*shudders

 

actually, that's a wonderful idea. unfortunately it would require a complete rewrite of the Herosphere code. but it is something to consider.

 

It would be nice, but something to be put off for your next life.

 

I just happened to be thinking that the Hero System can be instantiated in different forms, one of which is marks on a page and another is computer code.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Has HERO achieved maximum desirable complexity?

 

I have no problem calling HtH Damage: +15 STR' date=' No Figured Characteristics: -1/2, Damage Only: -0 as long as how all the damage adds makes sense. Right now you need a flowchart to understand how damage adds from various str, hth, martial arts, and killing attacks.[/quote']

 

The problem with a game like Hero is that, more so than a game that relies on random generation, there has to be some feeling of balance and fairness between powers and abilities,

 

HtH attacks have long been a problem. As MitchellS points out they are basically the same, cost wise, as extra strength with no figured characteristics, so why should anyone (except possibly the semi mythical concept player) take HtH attack unless they are in a NCM game and bumpting the limits?

 

The answer seems to be because there are advantages when it comes to adding - well - advantages in the way that damage adds. I think this was introduced as a balancing method, and it works, but makes the rules quite a bit more complex and less intuitive. Again, an issue of balance. It may have been better to either make the HA only limtiation a bit bigger (-3/4?) or bite the bullet and have a core power that doesn't work off 5 points per 1d6. Both approaches would doubtless have their fans and detractors.

 

The thing is, Hero is AMBITIOUS. It wants to get it right (and we keep on pointing out new areas we'd like improvevd....), so a proliferation of case-complexity is likely.

 

I don't think there IS a maximum level of desireable complexity but I would like to see the base level rules seperated from the options in 6th edition: that way you know where the firm ground is and if you want to go off exploring, that is your own look-out

 

Excellent topic, BTW.