What is Munchkin?

[Enforcer84]

Re: What is Munchkin?

 

I have, on occasion forgotten resistant defenses.

in a supers game.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: What is Munchkin?

 

I have, on occasion forgotten resistant defenses.

in a supers game.

 

Nicely done, Seeker84.

 

[assault]

Re: What is Munchkin?

 

Nicely done' date=' Seeker84.[/quote']

 

Repped.

 

 

 

Personally, I tend to specify characters that can't be adequately built on whatever point total I have available. As a result they tend to either be hopelessly compromised, or wildly underpowered.

 

When I do manage to match them to their point total, they are usually pretty OK, though. After all, I have been playing this game on and off for almost 25 years now... I do kind of know the rules.

 

I just need to overcome my own idiocy.

 

Then again, I would have trouble designing a munchkin character these days. I haven't really bothered to keep up with the scams, and I would be struggling to suppress my gag reflex pretty much the whole time.

 

Just give me 700 points and tell me to build a non-munchkin character, and I'd be as happy as a pig in mud.

[Dale A. Ward]

Re: What is Munchkin?

 

Actually, one of the things I tend to run into, myself, is woefully *under* powered characters. Maybe I just don't cram enough questionable limitations in... maybe I'm too fond of advantages that don't work out to be as valuable (1 1/2x KB isn't work as much as AP, after all), maybe I just don't 'build' right... *shrugs*

 

On the other hand, I've got character stories and concepts that sometimes intimidate GM's because I actually bothered to put effort into it. Go fig.

~sigh~

 

I can so relate... just ask Nolgroth.

[Squall]

Re: What is Munchkin?

 

This has been a pretty interested thread to me -- I'm still pretty new to the game, and whenever you see a character creation chapter that's as thick, alone, as most RPG books, it's easy to get a little intimidated. I had one two-hour session of Champions at Gencon (eight or nine players, one GM, very rushed) and other than that I've only really played on-line a few times, so I still feel pretty freakin' new to it.

 

One thing I've been worried about when making a character is just what this discussion brings up -- I don't know the "unwritten rules" of the game, so to speak. I'm still trying to find out what's efficient versus what's munchkinny. How lame is it to have a trick archer with a OAF and Independent and "Requires Two Hands," for instance? Is it cheesy to buy a power (Leaping, in this case) with "Requires an Acrobatics Skill Roll" and also have Skill Mastery for a 17- effective level in Acrobatics? When is it better to put points into an increased Speed, Lightning Reflexes, and a bunch of CSL's instead of just sinking those same points into DEX for largely the same effect (only, y'know, better)?

 

Is the GM going to roll his eyes when he sees my new character? If he rolls his eyes, is it because my character's weak and pathetic, or because I'm being greedy and abusive of the rules? Am I creatively getting the hang of the rules and making a good character, or am I squeezing blood from a stone and making a munchkin on accident?

 

In other, simpler, games it seems a lot easier to tell what's what. It might be that Hero's character creation is so (potentially) complex, it might be that I'm still getting the hang of it -- but threads like this one are neat to read.

[Trebuchet]

Re: What is Munchkin?

 

How lame is it to have a trick archer with a OAF and Independent and "Requires Two Hands' date='" for instance?[/quote']Pretty lame. The first bad guy to Grab your bow or arm has totally nullified any Power(s) that uses the bow. And if he steals the bow you're out the Points permanently.

 

Is it cheesy to buy a power (Leaping, in this case) with "Requires an Acrobatics Skill Roll" and also have Skill Mastery for a 17- effective level in Acrobatics?

Not really. If you've paid the points to have a 17- roll, why would it be unfair? Besides, you can still fail on a roll of "18" no matter how high your roll is purchased up to. Besides, any reasonable GM will still require something to use that Acrobatics roll off - if there's nothing nearby to bounce from, you can't use the full effects of the Leap.

 

When is it better to put points into an increased Speed, Lightning Reflexes, and a bunch of CSL's instead of just sinking those same points into DEX for largely the same effect (only, y'know, better)? .

That really depends on the particular campaign. In games with Characteristic caps or Human Characteristic Maxima (such as most heroic or fantasy campaigns) Lightning Reflexes and Skill levels really come into their own because you can't buy any level of DEX you want (or it becomes prohibitively expensive). Otherwise raw DEX and/or SPD is almost always a better buy.

 

In my mind munchkinism has always been somewhat determined by how much of it is present on a player's character(s). If he's got an occasional individual iffy Power-build, then he'll probably get the benefit of the doubt. OTOH, if every character he presents has stacks of questionable builds then I'm going to take a much closer (and stricter) look. Munchkinism isn't a crime; just a sin.

 

And of course none of that would prevent me from rejecting a character outright as unbalancing to the campaign even if a build is in no way suspect as cheesy.

[Bloodstone]

Re: What is Munchkin?

 

Not sure if you are actually looking for answers to those questions but, heres some of my opinion anyhow:

 

How lame is it to have a trick archer with a OAF and Independent and "Requires Two Hands," for instance?

 

This will vary greatly from GM to GM, but in many games Independent means if you lose it, it's gone for good. You may as well erase it right off the chracter sheet. It's not a limitation to be take lightly. If your archer can replace his bow with only moderate effort (losing it for a single story tops), it's not appropriate at all. Mind you, in Champions even characters with utterly unique equipment like mystic swords or Questionite shields rarely take Independent, so the GM will not be put in the situation of denying the player his signature equipment for moths of game time just because the player wanted to save some points...

 

For an archer, Requires Two Hands is a completly valid limitation for most Heroic level Games, but it's frequently ignored for the Super Heroic ones. Many people will say OAF and be done with it. Of course, if the GM uses the Disabeling and Hit Location rules in his Superheroic games, then this limitation might be worth something.

 

Is it cheesy to buy a power (Leaping, in this case) with "Requires an Acrobatics Skill Roll" and also have Skill Mastery for a 17- effective level in Acrobatics?

 

I'd have to see the exact power construct, but:

 

"A limitation that is not a limitation is worth no points."

 

Generally, if you have RSR and the skill in question is 16- or better, it's probably not worth wasting everyones time to roll the dice. Failure hapens so rarely that the limitation is not really worth any points. Well, it's worth a -1/4, but it's still generally not worth dealing with and, IMX, many GM's will ixnay it.

 

Of course, if it's an exceptionaly large power then the Active Point penalty may make the RSR worth something after all, since the chance of failure is still there. A 50 AP power, for example, imposes a -5 to the Skill Roll.

 

When is it better to put points into an increased Speed, Lightning Reflexes, and a bunch of CSL's instead of just sinking those same points into DEX for largely the same effect (only, y'know, better)?

 

"When concept deems it necessary."

 

Your GM will guide you on this with his point caps (if any) and how he designs his NPC's. If he builds his worlds "Spider-man" with a 35 DEX, chances are no amount of arm twisting will let you have a 50 DEX.

 

I could give you the rough guidelines I build with, but they would be somewhat meaningless unless you were playing in my game...

[Squall]

Re: What is Munchkin?

 

And, see, this is kind of what I mean. (a) It's a great thread, thanks for the answers, guys. But also ( even the answers I just got are kind of contradictory with one another.

 

Learning the ropes felt a lot easier when I was 12 and trying out D&D for the first time, than now when I'm 29 and acting confused about HERO.

 

All three questions were on my mind, since they're for a character I made yesterday for an on-line game. If no one minds, well, heck. I'll keep going.

 

The GM actually suggested Independent to me, since in his mind the primary piece of text in the description of Indepenent is that "anyone can use it." My character's bow is just a nice bow, nothing supernatural or even super-high tech -- so by his reasoning anyone that wanted to use it, could use it. Similarly, if someone swiped it, my character would have to go looking for it to get it back (that sort of thing). He pointed me towards it, but I felt like I was stacking an awful lot of disad's onto a multipower when I saw how low the total cost was getting.

 

Acrobatic Leaping I selected because I saw it in the sidebar under leaping, and my character's a not-really-superhuman fella, so it sounded cool. Batman, Bullseye, Nightwing, Daredevil, etc, all make superhuman jumps all the time, right? Well this character's kind of in that vein, and I wanted him to be able to get around allright. So this seemed like a decent justification for his better-than-your-aver-age-bear leaping ability. I tossed on the "requires an Acrobatics roll" without thinking about it, and it wasn't 'till later in character creation I sank some points on Skill Mastery (DEX), which gave me a pretty high Acrobatics skill. I felt a little wiffle-waffley after that, the GM asked me about it, but didn't shoot it down (but he noticed it, and asked, so I figured it might be worth bringing up).

 

And the DEX thing was just something I noticed, putting this guy together. He's got a 26, which I figure is pretty good, make no mistake. But it just occured to me as I watched CSLs and Lightning Reflexes and stuff eat up points (and when I remembered all those DEX skills I have) -- I might have been, numerically, better served with just raw DEX. But would it have been "lame" for an archer/martial artist to go that route instead of sticking to a specialization (primarily ranged combat)? As written (just in case anyone's still reading this far) he's got a 26 DEX, a 6 SPD (purchased up from, what, a 4 base, right?), a +3 with his Bow multipower for Lightning Reflexes, a +2 Ranged CSLs, and a +3 Bow multipower CSL's. That's...what? 24 points for Speed, 3 for LR, 19 for CSL's? Am I a big dummy for not just sinking all that into DEX and calling it a day, maybe with one level extra in some CSLs or something to show his "knack," and in the process becoming a better martial artist, getting better skills, being harder to hit, and all the rest? There's no Normal Characteristic Maxima in effect...I tried to stick to a concept, and just feel kinda dumb for doing so.

 

Ah well. I could also just be worrying too much. In most games I know right what I'm doing, and maybe I'm just paranoid 'cause this is the most complicated guy I've made so far for this one. Either way, it's still been a cool thread to read.

[Susano]

Re: What is Munchkin?

 

The GM actually suggested Independent to me' date=' since in his mind the primary piece of text in the description of Indepenent is that "anyone can use it." My character's bow is just a nice bow, nothing supernatural or even super-high tech -- so by his reasoning anyone that wanted to use it, could use it. Similarly, if someone swiped it, my character would have to go looking for it to get it back (that sort of thing). He pointed me towards it, but I felt like I was stacking an awful lot of disad's onto a multipower when I saw how low the total cost was getting.[/quote']

 

"Anyone can use it" is a Universal Focus. Independent is best used for those one-of-a-kind items that aren't yours and may not always be yours. You have it, yes, but if you lose it, or it is destroyed, you don't get to go home and get it back. Either you go find it and get it back, or you spend the points to create another one. And it you can't get it back, you lose the points. An archer's bow, available at many sporting goods stores, is not Independent.

 

Acrobatic Leaping I selected because I saw it in the sidebar under leaping, and my character's a not-really-superhuman fella, so it sounded cool. Batman, Bullseye, Nightwing, Daredevil, etc, all make superhuman jumps all the time, right? Well this character's kind of in that vein, and I wanted him to be able to get around allright. So this seemed like a decent justification for his better-than-your-aver-age-bear leaping ability. I tossed on the "requires an Acrobatics roll" without thinking about it, and it wasn't 'till later in character creation I sank some points on Skill Mastery (DEX), which gave me a pretty high Acrobatics skill. I felt a little wiffle-waffley after that, the GM asked me about it, but didn't shoot it down (but he noticed it, and asked, so I figured it might be worth bringing up).

 

It depends on how you buy the "requires a skill roll." If you need to subtract the Active Points, then it's -1/2 (although since Leaping is -1 per 1" that isn't going to be much). The other is to treat it like an Activation Roll, in which case a 16- means a -0 Limitation.

[Kirby]

Re: What is Munchkin?

 

...so the GM will not be put in the situation of denying the player his signature equipment for moths....

I hate it when that happens. It's one of the reasons I root for the big lizard in "Godzilla vs. Mothra."

 

 

 

[Kirby]

Re: What is Munchkin?

 

Learning the ropes felt a lot easier when I was 12 and trying out D&D for the first time' date=' than now when I'm 29 and acting confused about HERO. [/quote']Well, HERO is definitely a more advanced gaming system; it's not really a "my first roleplaying game" type. Having said that, 2E D&D is my favorite RPG ever! (With HERO being 2nd.)

 

The GM actually suggested Independent to me' date=' since in his mind the primary piece of text in the description of Indepenent is that "anyone can use it." My character's bow is just a nice bow, nothing supernatural or even super-high tech -- so by his reasoning anyone that wanted to use it, could use it. Similarly, if someone swiped it, my character would have to go looking for it to get it back (that sort of thing). He pointed me towards it, but I felt like I was stacking an awful lot of disad's onto a multipower when I saw how low the total cost was getting.[/quote']I can't imagine a superhero game where you would ever want to use the Independent limitation; I believe it's more for NPCs and GM plot devices. Let me give four "scenarios" about the difference between Unviersal Focus, Personal Focus and Independent. (Universal and Personal [both 0 limitations]were in 4th Ed, but not in 5th's "FREd" [though it may be in 5ER].)

 

Universal Obvious Accessible Focus: Archer Man has his bow knocked away from him by Disarm Dan. Teammate Bob picks up the bow and shoots Disarm Dan with it.

 

Personal Obvious Accessible Focus: Archer Man has his mystic bow knocked away from him by Disarm Dan. Teammate Bob picks up the bow, can't pull the string and so tosses it back to Archer Man on AM's next phase.

 

Neither of these have the Independent limitation so if Archer Man has his bow stolen from Sinister Strong Sam who snaps the bow in two! When Archer Man returns to home/the base/the store, he creates/picks up another bow and is good to go.

 

Independent Scenario 1: Archer Man has his bow stolen from him by Thieving Theodore. It takes a month for Archer Man to track Thieving Theodore, during which time, Archer Man does not have the use of a bow. Very sad indeed.

 

Independent Scenario 2: Archer Man has his bow stolen from him by Butterfingers Bob, who unfortunately had Unluck. Butterfingers Bob drops the bow into the lava pit down below and it is destroyed. Archer Man effectively loses all his points for the bow since it was Independent and cannot "purchase" a new one until he has enough XP. Archer Man's player is depressed and tosses Archer Man into the lava pit as well, since it would take a long time to recover those points.

 

And the DEX thing was just something I noticed' date=' putting this guy together. He's got a 26, which I figure is pretty good, make no mistake. But it just occured to me as I watched CSLs and Lightning Reflexes and stuff eat up points (and when I remembered all those DEX skills I have) -- I might have been, numerically, better served with just raw DEX.[/quote']This is sometimes a personal preference in a superheroic game. It may be that only one person is allowed to have a DEX above "x" and someone else wants to be in that catagory OR it reflects a ranged weapon user (archer, pistoleer, etc.) to represent the fact that he's fast "on the draw" so-to-speak, but that doesn't make him better equipped to dodge.

 

Hope this helps.

[Cold Steel]

Re: What is Munchkin?

 

So in the End, Munchkins are all of us in denial.

[Cancer]

Re: What is Munchkin?

 

Or, perhaps, we are all a mixture of Munchkin and non-Munchikin wavestates at all times, oscillating back and forth in relative amplitude, reflecting the reality that Munchkinhood is not a time-invariant eigenstate of the Gamer wavefunction. Much like Schrodinger's cat, then, only when the box is opened and we are killed do we become frozen into either the Munchkin or non-Munchkin state forever.

 

That "killing" part is what we have keyes_bill for.

[teh bunneh]

Re: What is Munchkin?

 

That "killing" part is what we have keyes_bill for.

 

Always happy to do my part... for science!

 

Bill.

(Now, who's first?)

[Trebuchet]

Re: What is Munchkin?

 

And' date=' see, this is kind of what I mean. (a) It's a great thread, thanks for the answers, guys. But also ( even the answers I just got are kind of contradictory with one another.[/quote']I think this is one of those "I may not be able to describe X, but I know it when I see it" issues. As you've already seen, we don't all agree on what munchkinism is, the only thing most of us will agree on is that we don't much like it. Where we all draw that line can vary wildly. There's really no right answer. The only real guide is your own GM, conscience, and gaming group.

 

I will observe that IME many players go through stages in their Hero career. They start with very simple characters as they learn the system, then as they get more design experience build more complicated and increasingly munchkin-like characters, and then often settle back into a happy medium.

[Robyn]

Re: What is Munchkin?

 

I think this is one of those "I may not be able to describe X' date=' but I know it when I see it" issues. As you've already seen, we don't all agree on what munchkinism is, the only thing most of us will agree on is that we don't much like it. Where we all draw that line can vary wildly. There's really no right answer. The only real guide is your own GM, conscience, and gaming group.[/quote']

 

Repped!

 

Also quoted for posterity

 

This is one of those generally true statements, one which echoes my own (recently voiced) sentiments on each group's compromise between game balance and common sense.

[Robyn]

Re: What is Munchkin?

 

That "killing" part is what we have keyes_bill for.

 

(perks up) "Is it time to Kill Bill yet?"

[Hyper-Man]

Re: What is Munchkin?

 

I think this is one of those "I may not be able to describe X, but I know it when I see it" issues. As you've already seen, we don't all agree on what munchkinism is, the only thing most of us will agree on is that we don't much like it. Where we all draw that line can vary wildly. There's really no right answer. The only real guide is your own GM, conscience, and gaming group.

 

I will observe that IME many players go through stages in their Hero career. They start with very simple characters as they learn the system, then as they get more design experience build more complicated and increasingly munchkin-like characters, and then often settle back into a happy medium.

 

Now I'm just waiting for someone to pipe up and say something like:

I know "X", and that sir is NO "X"!

[Weldun]

Re: What is Munchkin?

 

Now I'm just waiting for someone to pipe up and say something like:

I know "X", and that sir is NO "X"!

I just can't bring myself to do it...

...I'm sleep-deprived, not sleep-depraved.