When did [Title X] Jumping the Shark

[Haven Walkur]

Re: When did [Title X] Jumping the Shark

 

But surely even British Chavs express themselves in perfect Shakespearean sonnets?

 

Repped, V. The "Chav Sonnet" is mordantly funny. Quite heartbreaking -- I'm originally English -- but funny.

 

 

 

Edit:{sigh}No, you're NOT repped. I have to spread Rep around first...it's the same old song. Sorry about that.

[teh bunneh]

Re: When did [Title X] Jumping the Shark

 

Got 'im for ya!

 

V -- you, like you namesake, are a poet. :applause:

[Enforcer84]

Re: When did [Title X] Jumping the Shark

 

Got 'im for ya!

 

V -- you, like you namesake, are a poet. :applause:

And you, like your namesake, are Bill Keyes.

[Logan D. Hurricanes]

Re: When did [Title X] Jumping the Shark

 

And you' date=' like your namesake, are Bill Keyes.[/quote']

Whoa.

[Balabanto]

Re: When did [Title X] Jumping the Shark

 

I don't mind Spider Man as an avenger:

 

But let's give a brief list, shall we?

 

Amazing Spider Man: Venom. A needless villain who added nothing to canon and spawned a clone called KARNAGE? Who was writing this stuff? Crack salesmen? It didn't really jump the shark until Clone Saga. Strazynski's bringing it back, but sometimes I think he'd rather kill Quesada than work with him.

 

Iron Man: Oh, lord. This is a case of the individual hero's book jumping the shark because of what they did to him in another. Kang once, Ultron Twice?

 

WHERE IS HIS CLASSIC ROGUES GALLERY?

 

MELTER? (DEAD)

 

Blizzard (Thunderbolts? EAT MY SHORTS),

 

Whiplash/Blacklash (Who knows?).

 

Where's Midas and Firebrand (Oh, wait, that's right, he's a HERO now, just kill me). Even that Looney Lama guy was a better character than most of Iron Man's current enemies. Only the Mandarin has been retained.

 

Living Laser has become an energy being cariacture of himself. If EVER there was a character that needed a reboot, it was this one.

 

Titanium Man? Oh, wait, that's right STARK PAYS HIS SALARY NOW!

 

Justin Hammer and Obidiah Stane are pretty much done, but they were great characters too.

 

And you know, when was the last time Iron Man REALLY faced Ultimo?

 

Iron Man has received the WORST treatment of any character in Marvel, and his portrayal in Civil War was astonishingly awful.

 

The thing that amazes me the most about this is that people let this happen over and over again to him. They even managed to make him RIGHT during Civil War (Which was also wrong, the real Tony Stark, the Tony Stark I remember, wouldn't stand for this), and the spiral just kept getting worse...

 

And now, that all THIS crap happened to him, he's Ultron...AND A GIRL!!!!!!!!!

 

When is this madness going to end?

 

Captain America: I think you all know my opinion on this one already, so I won't review it here. Just look at my signature.

 

Avengers: Disassembled says it all.

 

Fantastic Four: That AWFUL Doom Story that Mark Waid wrote. I wanted to throttle him.

 

Iron Fist: This is a character that has been constantly written like garbage, and when Iron Fist: The Immortal came out, I became completely disgusted.

 

The Punisher: The Punisher jumped the shark at the moment of his creation! Doesn't anyone understand that he was created AS AN ANTAGONIST FOR SPIDER MAN? HE WAS NEVER MEANT TO HAVE ANY SORT OF POPULARITY! They should put him back where he belongs.

 

I own this comic. He was not portrayed sympathetically. Only a total idiot could even find sympathy for him if you love superheroes.

 

X-Men: After issue #200, original series, this book was pretty much dead to me. The law of economy of characters destroyed it.

 

There are as many "major" characters in my own world as some of these comic book companies. Unfortunately, I don't try and cram them all into one arc, because I'M NOT A MORON!

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: When did [Title X] Jumping the Shark

 

I'm amazed how almost all the examples are so recent, but I suppose it's par for the course that we harp only on that very recent story that bothered us.

 

Heroes Reborn not mentioned?

 

Avengers #200?

 

The Detroit JLA (Chustice League)?

 

Virtually every major change is viewed as a change for the worse by some fans. How much flack did Stan Lee take when he moved Thor, Iron Man and Giant Man out in favour of Quicksilver, Hawkeye and the Scarlet Witch. And who's this Barry Allen (Hal Jordan) clown? The Flash (Green Lantern) is Jay Garrick (Alan Scott)!

[Peregrine]

Re: When did [Title X] Jumping the Shark

 

Heroes Reborn was actually a bold move (on the heels of yet-another-crappy-mutants-storyline) - Marvel's opportunity to A. separate the mutant and non-mutant characters into separate universes (where so many, including myself, think they belong) and B. bring (at least) the non-mutant universe more current (after all, they have characters with historical roots in the 1960s [iron Man] who have been active ever since*).

 

The problem was in the execution. Though there were some nice bits; I liked the Empire State University Brain Trust idea - make the greatest minds of the setting college peers. That shared history bound the setting together better than anything else I could think of. But then Marvel pulled the plug and announced that it had been intended as a short-term situation.

 

Bringing them back? That jumped the shark, definitely.

 

*Though I think they've cleared that up somewhat. I don't recall how.

[st barbara]

Re: When did [Title X] Jumping the Shark

 

I think that "shark jumping" is a spectator sport in comics !

[Powerhouse]

Re: When did [Title X] Jumping the Shark

 

You have GOT to be kidding me... You DID read everything starting with Identity Crisis up through Infinite Crisis, didn't you? The only reason that extended storyline doesn't rank as the all-time greatest crapfest in the history of comics is that Civil War is the category-killer.

 

With respect, I disagree. While I did not like some things of Identity Crisis (Sue's rape and death really turned my stomach), in the end the heroes realized that they had gone too far, lost touch with their heroism, and resolved to be better heroes. It looked to undo some of the grim and gritty excesses.

 

By contrast, CW completely disregarded past characterization, set hero against hero, ignored any type of logic, and had Iron Man, a once great hero, sell his soul many times over with one henious act after another. And in the end, we get a darker world where most of the "heroes" are goose-steppers.

[assault]

Re: When did [Title X] Jumping the Shark

 

The Detroit JLA (Chustice League)?

 

Yes. The Chustice League was a shark jump, for sure.

 

Mind you, it would probably be fair to say that it was a response to the JLA having jumped earlier.

 

PS: "V" has been repped, as mightily as I could.

[input.jack]

Re: When did [Title X] Jumping the Shark

 

For Avengers, I got back into it with the Busiek/Perez run. Once they both left, it declined fast, but the "Lion of Avalon" arc blew chum and I dropped. Shortly afterwards was "Disassembled" and all that flowed from that, so no going back.

 

"Disassembled" was the straw that broke my back for Marvel, too. Halfway into the first issue of that dren I had lost all faith in the current Marvel crew.

[Peregrine]

Re: When did [Title X] Jumping the Shark

 

You have GOT to be kidding me... You DID read everything starting with Identity Crisis up through Infinite Crisis' date=' didn't you? The only reason that extended storyline doesn't rank as the all-time greatest crapfest in the history of comics is that Civil War is the category-killer.[/b']

 

With respect, I disagree. While I did not like some things of Identity Crisis (Sue's rape and death really turned my stomach), in the end the heroes realized that they had gone too far, lost touch with their heroism, and resolved to be better heroes. It looked to undo some of the grim and gritty excesses.

 

By contrast, CW completely disregarded past characterization, set hero against hero, ignored any type of logic, and had Iron Man, a once great hero, sell his soul many times over with one heinous act after another. And in the end, we get a darker world where most of the "heroes" are goose-steppers.

 

No dispute on how utterly without redeeming qualities Civil War is.

 

On DC, from Identity Crisis through Infinite Crisis... it's a matter of degree. Heroes were acting almost as badly out of character as in Civil War, storytelling went out the window in favor of pushing the story, and things were, generally, unnecessarily dark. The heroes realizing their excesses and rejecting them at the end did not redeem the stories that got them there. Heroism can be upheld and validated without having to abandon it for a time.

 

But Civil War is far, far worse.

[psm]

Re: When did [Title X] Jumping the Shark

 

Although, I wouldn't use the term "jumping the shark" because I really like the current series. I would say that the Avengers had a negative turning point when Roger Stern left the series due to a disagreement with editorial. This was back in the late 80's. Right after he left Walt Simonson took over and things went downhill fast. Then Bob Harras took over and things got worse. Everyone started wearing flak jackets with too many pockets (not that I'm blaming Harras, I know it was editorial) and we end up with the "Crossing". It was during this time that we get the young Tony Stark and Force Works too. Some very unreadable comics.

[Powerhouse]

Re: When did [Title X] Jumping the Shark

 

Then Bob Harras took over and things got worse. Everyone started wearing flak jackets with too many pockets (not that I'm blaming Harras, I know it was editorial) and we end up with the "Crossing". It was during this time that we get the young Tony Stark and Force Works too. Some very unreadable comics.

 

I'll be honest in that I really liked that Avengers run. While I tend to be of the old school that you need Captain America, Iron Man, and Thor (along with stalwarts like the Vision, Scarlet Witch, and Hawkeye), that team really worked IMHO. I think it was because the team became more character oriented and you could take more chances with that cast as opposed to the more iconic characters.

 

The team at the time was:

 

1. Black Widow (leader)

2. Hercules (partway through he lost some of his divine power so that he was at half strength)

3. Vision

4. Crystal

5. Black Knight (deputy leader)

6. Sersi (IMHO, one of the best new Avengers in years)

7. Deathcry (a Shi'ar warrior very much in the style of Image/Xmen but later revealed to have much greater depth).

8. Quicksilver (part time)

9. Captain America (more of a reserve)

 

Not all top guns admittedly but the team managed to do very well and tell a rather emotional and compelling story that would have been more difficult with the icons since the icons are somewhat untouchable in team books. There were many little touches like the love triangle between Crystal, Black Knight, and Sersi (with Quicksilver in a supporting role), the Vision regaining his humanity, Hercules dealing with his mortality and starting to fall in love with Deathcry.

 

It wasn't typical Avengers (in fact, it felt a little bit like an X-title) but it was a nice change of pace with a touching ending where Sersi became incredibly powerful but was losing her sanity and Black Knight (despite falling in love with Crystal), left this world with Sersi because he lover her as well and needed him more.

 

The "Crossing" stuff that came a bit later (like the insect Wasp and young Tony Stark) did stink though and made me stop reading.

[Balabanto]

Re: When did [Title X] Jumping the Shark

 

Well, really, the problem was that DC really jumped the Shark in the late 60's.

 

I mean, come on. The Eraser Who Tried to Rub Out Batman?

 

That killed YEARS of comics for me right there.

[casualplayer]

Re: When did [Title X] Jumping the Shark

 

I dropped Hellblazer right after the Dangerous Habits storyline. Seeing Constantine as a worthless' date=' hopeless, homeless drunk was a bit too much for me.[/quote']

 

But, that means you missed John taking a wizz on the King of the Vampires and then dragging him out into the sunlight to go POOF! That was pure comix gold there.

[starblaze]

Re: When did [Title X] Jumping the Shark

 

The Punisher after he was killed and got sent to Hell.

or before that when he shot Nick Fury and was supposedly electrocuted and then ended up running a Mafia family.

 

Thankfully, Garth Ennis brought us back to Frank we all know and love.

[Vondy]

Re: When did [Title X] Jumping the Shark

 

I'm in Blue's camp with this one ... I think that there are several bad stories and several good stories. A good set of examples: Secret Wars and Secret Wars II. The first was pretty good ... had some great development' date=' great stories spun off from it ... over all, IMHO, one of the best mini-series made Then you have SWII. Man, how could they make that piece of monkey poodo a sequel to SW?! With "SWII: David Haselhoff Destroys the Marvel Universe", Marvel tried to push stories in different directions ... aka the trash. But then, you get stories like Avengers Forever which makes you forget SWII:DHDtMU [/quote']

 

What - the beyonder defeated by an ethnic stereotype? What could be wrong with that?

[TheQuestionMan]

Re: When did [Title X] Jumping the Shark

 

Almost all Titles from Valiant Comics after they were bought out by Acclaim Comics.

 

Marvel Comics

Thunderbolts after Kurt Busiek left.

 

DC Comics

Warlord after Mike Grell left.

 

 

More later

 

QM

[FenrisUlf]

Re: When did [Title X] Jumping the Shark

 

What - the beyonder defeated by an ethnic stereotype? What could be wrong with that?

 

What do you mean? Never read the whole series, just parts of it. Just how did they get rid of the Beyonder?

[Twilight]

Re: When did [Title X] Jumping the Shark

 

The Molecule Man is an ethnic stereotype?

 

He IS the one who finished off the Beyonder at the end of Secret Wars 2 after all.

[Logan D. Hurricanes]

Re: When did [Title X] Jumping the Shark

 

The Molecule Man is an ethnic stereotype?

Those damn molecule people, always up to something! Real Americans don't need no molecules!

[gojira]

Re: When did [Title X] Jumping the Shark

 

Actually, I need molecules to do the yard.

[JmOz]

Re: When did [Title X] Jumping the Shark

 

What do you mean? Never read the whole series' date=' just parts of it. Just how did they get rid of the Beyonder?[/quote']

 

 

If memory serves, Kitty Pride, a jewish super heroine GUILTED him, the old stereotype...

 

As for DC, I think the ID Crisis through 52 have actualy been a clean up of the DCU, opposed to the House of M, Avengers Disesemble, etc... is a tear down of the marvel U.

 

In the end both were about making money, but I think that DC's was an attempt to make there world more long term while Mavel's was more about making a quick turn around, but that is just me.

 

Overall I liked the majority of DC's (Especialy a return to a Batman from a BatGOD)

[Twilight]

Re: When did [Title X] Jumping the Shark

 

If memory serves, Kitty Pride, a jewish super heroine GUILTED him, the old stereotype...

 

A] Kitty Pryde is not an ethnic stereotype, no matter how she dealt with the villain.

 

B] The Beyonder was destroyed by The Molecule Man at the end of Secret Wars if memory serves. I know there was a storyline recently where the Beyonder was said to have returned but I belive that was revealed to be The Stranger in disguise.