Superhuman women and normal women

[wylodmayer]

Re: Superhuman women and normal women

 

I think I read that article, too, ghost-angel. That was an interesting result. Men of all ages from all cultures tended to rank women with a 0.7 waist to hip ratio as the most attractive, regardless of other factors. Weird. That especially makes me feel like a freak for likin' the stick-figure-y types.

 

And yeah, as g-a notes, there are plenty of beauty signals in other cultures, too - I was just hedging my bets by restricting my comments by invoking "Western culture," which I meant in a variety of ways:

 

*to note I was referring to Western standards of beauty;

*to emphasize that most campaigns are set in Western cultures;

*and to allow for the possibility that other cultures might mark some women as more desirable primarily for non-physical reasons, such as obedience or fertility or whatever.

 

In other words, it was C.Y.A. on my part.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Superhuman women and normal women

 

It's interesting that the major comics franchises have done little to address this issue.

 

Do little girls in DC's universe play with Wonder Woman and Starfire dolls rather than Barbie and Skipper?

 

Do guys in Marvel's universe hang posters of She-Hulk or Sue Storm instead of Halle Berry in their bedrooms?

 

Or have supers become so common that they're just another more-exotic-than-most form of celebrity; and therefore get treated more like Paris Hilton with weird powers than with real respect or awe?

[AliceTheOwl]

Re: Superhuman women and normal women

 

Actually, the latest issue of Wonder Woman touched upon this. Wonder Woman's lost a lot of popularity in the DC Universe (at least amongst its residents) over the Max Lord incident, and it shows Diana at a supers theme park. When she goes to buy a "Wonder Woman Shake," you see it's crossed off on the menu, and the clerk informs her it's been changed to a "Black Canary Shake." Then her partner, not knowing who she is, buys a Wonder Woman action figure in the gift shop for his niece's birthday that upcoming weekend, and is delighted to find they're 75% off (because Wonder Woman stuff hasn't been selling as well lately).

 

The issue before that is about a shelter for battered women, who, it seems, are being inspired to leave these abusive situations by Wonder Woman's very presence. When the people looking for Wonder Woman go to see if there's a connection, WW herself is pulled into it, and is surprised and flattered to find she's a role model for all these women.

[Bloodstone]

Re: Superhuman women and normal women

 

Grant Morrison Touched on this in Seven Soldiers: Bulleteer.

[wylodmayer]

Re: Superhuman women and normal women

 

In re: comics addressing these issues:

 

That's pretty cool, and a little (pleasantly) surprising! Despite my love of all things superheroy, I have, of late, essentially given up hero comics out of bitter disappointment in the writing. Nice to know things are taking an upswing, at least in part.

 

Peter David, whom I like but find an uneven writer at best, touched on this a little in Supergirl*, but only in a very tangential way. She had an agent who booked her to speak at events and who tried to get marketing tie ins and stuff. I think there was an issue about this in Superman, too, but that was years ago.

 

The one who's reaction I'd really like to see to marketing is Batman.

 

----

 

*Note that this was before David steered his comic over the cliff by embarking on a decidedly off-genre, metaphysical, Heaven-v-Hell storyline so convoluted that it went on for over a year and a half without the direction of the plot being one iota clearer than when it started, with no payoff in sight. I stopped collecting at that point. Shortly after that, faced with positively dismal sales, he brings back Kara Kent and, according to his own words, planned on introducing Power Girl into the comic to turn it into "three blonde powerhouses kicking around the universe and having fun." Perhaps he got the message that something along those lines just might be what people are expecting when the pick up a Supergirl comic, rather than some endlessly labrynthine meditation on God and Satan. If he did, as his wounded-sounding protestations after his title got nuked indicate, then he certainly could have shown a little of that while wanking off to his own amateurish meditations on theodicy. I'm all for deep thought, but when I pick up a comic about a blonde girl in a short skirt who can fly and lift tanks, I don't intend to stick around for a something that sounds like a tract on Kierkegaard written by someone who smoked too much dope.

[OddHat]

Re: Superhuman women and normal women

 

*and to allow for the possibility that other cultures might mark some women as more desirable primarily for non-physical reasons, such as obedience or fertility or whatever.

 

Just as a side note, I've always thought that the near universal markers for sexual attractiveness (in this case, near universal meaning found in almost all cultures and at almost all times) were fertility related. The appearance of youth and health (including symmetrical features) are always big winners; I expect that the waist to hips ratio ties back into that.

[Balabanto]

Re: Superhuman women and normal women

 

Actually, there have to be slight imperfections. When they made the woman perfectly symmetrical and all of her features were absolutely even using Digital technology, the "perfect woman" looked average. And plain.

 

But to get back on topic, I think that we're walking back onto that dangerous masculine ground where we're evaluating things far too much from that masculine perspective.

 

When we look at the "Super Woman" that most comics write, that woman is more "masculine" in behavior than many male characters, because of the way they are written.

 

Why don't we try making female characters that actually represent what social observations tell us, that women are better group communicators and operate better in small units.

 

I won't hit the essentialist nurturing model because the essentialist model is somewhat broken.

 

On the one hand, we have Wonder Woman now written by Jodi Picault. It's nice to have a woman writing Diana. Yet, simultaneous with this, they have gone back to Diana with the glasses and her hair up in a bun. The irony does not escape me here, that Diana can only be "Wonder Woman" when she is not bound in the constraints of masculine society.

 

I really hope they don't bring back the bracelets thing. Poor WW's suffered enough.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Superhuman women and normal women

 

On the one hand' date=' we have Wonder Woman now written by Jodi Picault. It's nice to have a woman writing Diana. Yet, simultaneous with this, they have gone back to Diana with the glasses and her hair up in a bun. The irony does not escape me here, that Diana can only be "Wonder Woman" when she is not bound in the constraints of masculine society.[/quote']I suspect (I hope!) that's simply an attempt to enhance Diana Prince's secret identity. One would hope that the new writer isn't trying to portray the Princess of Themyscara as a non-sexual drone; but simply trying to divert attention from how attractive Diana Prince would be if not deliberately "tuned down." (Many Holly stars apparently do the same kind of thing to go incognito; putting on loose sweats and sunglasses completely at odds with their normal glamourous public selves.)

 

I really hope they don't bring back the bracelets thing. Poor WW's suffered enough.

No bracelets!? Heresy! Bring back the bracelets!

[wrestlinggeek]

Re: Superhuman women and normal women

 

 

No bracelets!? Heresy! Bring back the bracelets!

 

 

I think the "bracelet thing" he is referring to is the old plot point of "She looses her powers if her bracelets are chained together by a man." This has been retconned out of existence since the original Crisis, but was used often in the Golden and early Silver ages.

[Karmakaze]

Re: Superhuman women and normal women

 

Do guys in Marvel's universe hang posters of She-Hulk or Sue Storm instead of Halle Berry in their bedrooms?

 

I think they do. I'm pretty sure I've seen art of kids rooms with She-Hulk posters. It seems you're more likely to see Johnny Storm on a poster than Sue, though.

[bigdamnhero]

Re: Superhuman women and normal women

 

Actually' date=' the latest issue of Wonder Woman touched upon this. [/quote']

You know, the new WW#1 didn't really grab me, but the more I hear, the more I think I should be reading it.

 

The one who's reaction I'd really like to see to marketing is Batman.

A subsidiary of Wayne Enterprises runs the whole thing, with all the proceeds going to charity. (Actually I just made all that up, but it sounds good don't you think? )

 

*Note that this was before David steered his comic over the cliff by embarking on a decidedly off-genre, metaphysical, Heaven-v-Hell storyline so convoluted that it went on for over a year and a half without the direction of the plot being one iota clearer than when it started, with no payoff in sight.

I'm all for deep thought, but when I pick up a comic about a blonde girl in a short skirt who can fly and lift tanks, I don't intend to stick around for a something that sounds like a tract on Kierkegaard written by someone who smoked too much dope.

Sounds like David's been reading too much Promethea.

[wylodmayer]

Re: Superhuman women and normal women

 

Sounds like David's been reading too much Promethea.

 

Heh - well, Promethea was a bit weird for my tastes, especially the ending, but I went into that with my eyes open. I mean, it was small press, Alan Moore, and a kind of oddball premise from the start. I didn't expect anything less than, well, the unexpected. But Supergirl? I don't pick up a DC Comic with the word "Super-" in the title expecting grim and gritty crime stories, or slapstick silly stories, or metaphysical self flagellation. I expect superheroics, by god. Move the Earth out of the way of a comet or something. Sheesh.

[Steve]

Re: Superhuman women and normal women

 

One thing that's been touched on in the Superman and Wonder Woman comics from time to time has to do with Lois Lane and her feelings concerning Clark's friendship with Diana. While Lois is an attractive and capable woman in her own right, she's not a superhuman. She's involved romantically with a superhuman icon of masculinity who is good friends with a superhuman icon of femininity.

 

She keeps telling herself that she trusts Clark and Diana, but I can imagine that any normal woman involved with a superhuman must have the occasional twinges of self-doubt when it comes to their romantic partner. Mary Jane has probably had similar twinges of self-doubt come up from time to time when it comes to Peter Parker's friendship with Jessica Hardy (aka the Black Cat).

 

Has anyone ever played with that aspect of relationships in campaigns? Do jealousies happen?

 

 

My 900th post!

[Hermit]

Re: Superhuman women and normal women

 

Well, if you want to do the true comic homage , then even ordinary women in a comic universe seem more attractive as a rule than they should be. Some writers gripe about Peter being married to a supermodel like Mary Jane, but seriously, was there any girl he dated who wasn't at least Comliness 14 or higher as drawn? Powered or no? If there is that big a gap, it appears to be more of a proximity to the hero thing than whether someone has powers or not.

 

Indeed, while it is more whimsy than anything else, I have been tempted to jokingly suggest that every superhero has a superpower they are unaware of, +2 Comliness, Usable by another at range, 1 Recoverable Continuing Charge (lasts a year), Invisible source (+1/4), Only works on potential or current romantic interests (-1 and 1/2).

 

This boost will also insure new rivals popping up and trying to steal your hottie girlfriend/boyfriend. Oh, the angst.

 

[OddHat]

Re: Superhuman women and normal women

 

One thing that's been touched on in the Superman and Wonder Woman comics from time to time has to do with Lois Lane and her feelings concerning Clark's friendship with Diana. While Lois is an attractive and capable woman in her own right, she's not a superhuman. She's involved romantically with a superhuman icon of masculinity who is good friends with a superhuman icon of femininity.

 

She keeps telling herself that she trusts Clark and Diana, but I can imagine that any normal woman involved with a superhuman must have the occasional twinges of self-doubt when it comes to their romantic partner. Mary Jane has probably had similar twinges of self-doubt come up from time to time when it comes to Peter Parker's friendship with Jessica Hardy (aka the Black Cat).

 

Lois has borderline narcissistic personality disorder and is sharp enough to realize that Clark himself is working through identity issues by being with her. So long as she keeps undercutting his self esteem at every turn, he'll never leave her for Diana. Besides, Diana is from an island of women and until very recently told people she'd lose her powers if she gave herself willingly to a man; from Lois's point of view, there's almost no chance Diana is straight.

 

[Bloodstone]

Re: Superhuman women and normal women

 

And really, if Lois was going to be jealous of anyone she'd be jealous of Bruce

[wylodmayer]

Re: Superhuman women and normal women

 

I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks that the way Lois has occassionally been written borders on the psychopathological. Some of the male writers in comicdom have problems scripting strong women who aren't, well, b*tches.

 

However, check out Brian K Vaughn's fantastic "Y the Last Man" for a male writer who can write women.

[TaxiMan]

Re: Superhuman women and normal women

 

Y'know, they say beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I'm not sure there is such a thing as super-beauty. No one has been able to paint or airbrush anything that is that much better than reality. Really good reality, but still "normal". I think super beauty might require some sort of mind control, to readjust perceptions or something. Induce hallucinogenic chemicals in the brain of the observer or something. I don't think you can just "have" it.

[Steve]

Re: Superhuman women and normal women

 

Y'know' date=' they say beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I'm not sure there is such a thing as super-beauty. No one has been able to paint or airbrush anything that is that much better than reality. Really good reality, but still "normal". I think super beauty might require some sort of mind control, to readjust perceptions or something. Induce hallucinogenic chemicals in the brain of the observer or something. I don't think you can just "have" it.[/quote']

 

An argument could be made that, due to the magic underlying the very existence of the Superheroic Age in the Champions Universe, perhaps there is an element of a type of "faerie glamour" to a given superhuman's appearance, a little something extra beyond what mere physical appearance would cause.

[pinecone]

Re: Superhuman women and normal women

 

I was reading an article recently on Beauty as perceived around the world and through history. Apparently one trait did manage to be more or less universal: A waist thinner than the hips. It was pointed out that it wasn't ness. a 'thing waist' but that there was a definitet and defined curve from waist to hips.

 

Everything else was kind of all over the map.

 

And I know for a fact Eastern cultures have marks for beautiful women - they may not match Western cultures, but they are just as prevelent socially around the world.

 

The "magic ratio" for wiast to hips is 6 to 10...aka 60% Maralyn Monroe had a perfect 6 to 10...and even now shes looked on as The sex symbol...

[Steve]

Re: Superhuman women and normal women

 

The "magic ratio" for wiast to hips is 6 to 10...aka 60% Maralyn Monroe had a perfect 6 to 10...and even now shes looked on as The sex symbol...

 

According to her official website, her measurements were 37-23-36, but there is some debate on that.

[pinecone]

Re: Superhuman women and normal women

 

According to her official website' date=' her measurements were 37-23-36, but there is some debate on that.[/quote']

 

Yeah I read enough driver's lisences to know better than beleive claims...the soucre I was quoting, claimed to have used measurements from photos....I chose to believe the claims...

[Trebuchet]

Re: Superhuman women and normal women

 

I think the "bracelet thing" he is referring to is the old plot point of "She looses her powers if her bracelets are chained together by a man." This has been retconned out of existence since the original Crisis' date=' but was used often in the Golden and early Silver ages.[/quote']Yeah, I remember that misogynist crapola. It was before my time, but I've seen examples in period comic retreads. IIRC, it was if she was bound; the bracelets were irrelevant so far as her powers went (except for that whole blocking bullets thing).

[SKJAM!]

Re: Superhuman women and normal women

 

A not really spoilery bit from Avengers: The Initiative #1: Initiative recruit Cloud9 (who is not exactly bad-looking herself) is distressed when she enters the locker room and discovers all her squadmates are of, erm, heroic proportions. Even the reptile woman. Even Armory, whose power is basically having a gun.

[SuperKlaus]

Re: Superhuman women and normal women

 

Yeah, but she'll knock 'em all dead when she puts on the little black dress for the Military Base Prom. Even with the unexpected violence I read that issue as being the first part of your usual High School Drama storyline.