THE BOOK OF DRAGONS -- What Do *You* Want To See?

[Steve Long]

OK, for reasons I'll go into in the Friday news update, we're having to shift the schedule a bit for the next couple months. I'm stopping work temporarily on The Ultimate Base so I can start on our next Fantasy Hero opus, The Book Of Dragons. So it's time for a WDYWTS thread.

 

TBoD is a book about major, powerful, high-level Fantasy creatures for your characters to fight, defeat, and of course pillage loot from. As the name suggests it has a lot of coverage of dragons, but it goes beyond that. Here's the rough breakdown:

 

Chapter One: Dragons: Some general information about dragons, plus umpty-billion character sheets for different types of dragons, plus a section of dragon personalities/backgrounds you can attach to any character sheet. (And when I say umpty-billion, I mean umpty-billion... or at least several dozen.)

 

Chapter Two: Other Major Monsters: I haven't fully spec'd out this chapter, but it's full of unique, major monsters to throw at the PCs: a golem the size of a mountain; the God of Worms mentioned in MMM; things like that. For the most part we're not talking about humanoid monsters (no liches or vampires, no orc princes, and definitely no Saurons or Kal-Turaks).

 

 

So... what do you want to see in this book? What sort of major Fantasy monstrosities spring to mind? What other information would you like to see the book cover?

[Quasar2k]

Re: THE BOOK OF DRAGONS -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

Well, since you asked... and bearing in mind I haven't played Fantasy Hero in fifteen years...

 

The Midgard Serpent- you know, the one that circles the entire sphere of the Earth?

Tiamat- the Babylonian Elder God, not the five-headed one ,

Grendel,

Grendel's Mother,

The Greek Mother of All Monsters, whose name is escaping me just now...

And, if possible, something nasty from the Mesoamerican Pantheons, just to shake things up a little bit...

 

Thank you, and have a nice day

[Lord Liaden]

Re: THE BOOK OF DRAGONS -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

First and foremost, consideration of dragons in genres other than fantasy. Ideally, I'm looking for "The Ultimate Dragon" that I can use for any game.

 

I know that dragons are in many ways the creature of fantasy stories, but being so evocative they often appear in other genres, including comic-book supers, science fiction (notably the alien Velantians from the Lensman series), and the Japanese kaiju. While these needn't be a major focus of the book, IMO it would broaden its appeal to at least discuss how to select or modify the given examples in design, power level, or roleplaying style to suite non-fantasy games. It would also be nice to provide some specific NPC dragons for various genres.

 

I'd also like to see some discussion of possible dragon societies, taking them beyond the level of mere singular foes (or even allies) for PCs. Just how would very powerful, extremely long-lived, predatory, magical, and treasure-hungry creatures associate and cooperate with each other? Dragons or draconian "races" and "nations" could be dealt with here as well.

 

Where appropriate, I wouldn't mind seeing reprints of notable illustrative examples from various published 5E books, such as the Drakine, the Mon'dabi, Brangomar, Vritra, the Nagas (fantasy and supers versions), and/or the minions and avatars of The Dragon.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: THE BOOK OF DRAGONS -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

Well' date=' since you asked... and bearing in mind I haven't played [i']Fantasy Hero [/i]in fifteen years...

 

The Midgard Serpent- you know, the one that circles the entire sphere of the Earth?

Tiamat- the Babylonian Elder God, not the five-headed one ,

 

Definitely fit into epic fantasy, high-powered supers, or gigakaiju-class action.

 

Grendel,

Grendel's Mother,

 

Both appear in issues of Digital Hero. Now that I think of it, Mike Surbrook rendered several versions of famous "historical" dragons for DH articles, which would be easy to drop into this book (since Hero Games owns them).

 

The Greek Mother of All Monsters' date=' whose name is escaping me just now...[/quote']

 

Echidna. Yes, she'd be a fun specific example to include, as would Python, the giant serpent slain by Apollo at Delphi. Maybe even mention the warrior-growing teeth of the dragon slain by Cadmus. (Oooh, dragon-derived artifacts... scale armor, dragon-bone spears... or the blood of Fafnir that burned flesh, but whose heart let its eaters understand the speech of beasts... that's a whole other area worth exploring.)

 

And' date=' if possible, something nasty from the Mesoamerican Pantheons, just to shake things up a little bit...[/quote']

 

The "couatl," or "feathered serpent," is certainly a common feature of many fantasy RPGs.

[Steve Long]

Re: THE BOOK OF DRAGONS -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

My general preference, for various reasons, is not to "stat out" specific dragons from myth and legend, such as Tiamat or the Midgardsormr, but I'll give it some thought.

[Vulcan]

Re: THE BOOK OF DRAGONS -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

Statting out is probably unnecessary - if the GM intends to have the PC's fight such a legendary monster, then he would need to take the capabilities of his PC's into account and would likely re-write the monster anyway.

 

A general overview of the legend's theoretical capabilities, outlook, attitude, and personality would probably serve quite well.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: THE BOOK OF DRAGONS -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

I guess I really don't see anything special about Dragons per se; its just yet another monster write up.

 

They're big, they fly, they spew some kind of damage. In the HERO System its even less interesting than in D&D since Fire Breath and say Lightning Breath are just variations of the same base power. A basic writeup with some extender packages would cover it, really.

 

For this book to have any value for me personally, it needs to bring something clever to the table on different aspects of "dragon", from a HERO System perspective.

 

What does it mean to be draconic? What effect do dragons have on a campaign -- what kind of considerations, what kind of flavor do they add. Where do they sit on the hierarchy of threats? If they are uber powerful why don't they just take over? What kind of differing interpretations might there be of dragons and some aspects there of? Dragon magic? A few sample settings ala Post Apocalyptic HERO featuring dragons in different ways. Some new related custom Talents for Dragons, and for non-dragons as well. Dragons as Followers? Dragon contacts? Justifications for power-ups based on the existence of dragons such as Draconic affected bloodlines among non-dragons, bathing in dragon's blood (and other consumption of dragon bits effects)? Different dragon-scion race packages? A few sample dragons lairs. Dragons as vehicles (aka a dragonrider spin where they basically are just big conveyances or fantasy fighter jet equivalents).

 

Etc...

[Shadowsoul]

Re: THE BOOK OF DRAGONS -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

Dragons as gods. They are big powerful beings and someone is bound to worship them, rules for dragon-priests and powers granted by dragon patrons.

 

Dragons as characters for a very high powered game, ideas on how to make a party with a variety of different abilities and how to challenge such powerful, mobile and terrifying characters.

 

 

Were-dragons!

 

As for big monsters.

 

Have krakens ever been statted up for Hero? That would be fun.

[Captain Obvious]

Re: THE BOOK OF DRAGONS -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

 

Have krakens ever been statted up for Hero? That would be fun.

 

Krakens are in the Bestiary.

 

As for what I would like to see in the Book of Dragons, I've always felt that dragons as a general rule don't have enough breadth in games. Recent versions of D&D seem to have fixed that to a degree, but still, it seems that there should be dragons with and without wings; with armored scales, with hard shells, with leathery skin, or with thin amphibian skin; with no legs or with a dozen; intelligent or bestial; with the power to terrorize worlds or only enough power to work up a village to a tizzy; dragons that fit (both in terms of points and in terms of genre feel) into the Turakian Age, the Valdorian Age, the Atlantean Age, Tuala Morn, Pulp Hero, or Champions.

 

But it sounds like, with umpty-billion character sheets, that should be taken care of.

[Maur]

Re: THE BOOK OF DRAGONS -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

Look at GURPS Dragons (3rd or 4th) and then stat out from there...

[Shadowsoul]

Re: THE BOOK OF DRAGONS -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

Krakens are in the Bestiary.

 

 

They are? I'll have to reread it now.

[Fitz]

Re: THE BOOK OF DRAGONS -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

I'd like to see a section on dragonslayer archetypes along with the dragons themselves. It could be tricky to do in any depth, considering the breadth of the source material, but a few examples built to suit various milieus (e.g. Dragonslayer, Reign of Fire, Beowulf etc.) with appropriate skill sets and equipment could be helpful.

[Ockham's Spoon]

Re: THE BOOK OF DRAGONS -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

Will there be any thought to dragon "biology"? Lots of dragons are just magical, mythological creatures, but I know various authors have attempted to create "reasonable" dragons with their own ecological niche, which might be nice for those running a less fanciful game.

 

For big scary monsters, you might include some Lovecraftian horrors. Not any creature in particular necessarily, but creatures that are so vicerally horrific that the hero has to overcome insanity-inducing fear before even contemplating physical combat.

 

Another type of monster to include might be animal-archtypes, ultra-powerful rulers of a particular species, as Moorcock had in his Elric books.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: THE BOOK OF DRAGONS -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

I'd love to see a section that touches on how dragons have been used in much fantasy literature -- especially medieval literature -- as essentially a stand-in for Evil Incarnate / Satan / The Bogeyman / Tyranny / Our Own Inner Demons. The archetypal quest to "slay the dragon" is a classic outwardly-manifested metaphor for overcoming intangible, often inwardly-manifested obstacles. Much as the quest for the Holy Grail is the spiritual crusade to attain perfect goodness, the quest to slay the Dragon is the spiritual crusade to defeat the darkness. How can these tropes be integrated into our games to drive interesting adventures, motivate interesting characters, and so on...

 

(PS: Hey! I think this is the first time I've ever managed to post fairly early on in a "What Do You Want To See?" thread! )

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: THE BOOK OF DRAGONS -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

Dragons as gods. They are big powerful beings and someone is bound to worship them' date=' rules for dragon-priests and powers granted by dragon patrons.[/quote']Or dragons as rulers (of non-dragon societies, such as ruling human kingdoms). How would a dragon overlord interact with its human underlings? Sacrifices and such are classics, but how else? Besides food and more gold, what could a dragon ruler want his human underlings to provide (or keep at bay) that the dragon couldn't easily do itself?

[Blue]

Re: THE BOOK OF DRAGONS -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

Tough subject. I mean, it's hard to think of something that hasn't been covered in dozens of other generic books for adaptations in games.

 

The only things that make them the HERO-specific book on dragons really would be writeups of specific stats (which you're not enthusiastic about) and details on how they interract with the established game world(s) that have been published by DoJ. Anything beyond that feels like a retread.

 

How about statting out a few items designed for fighting with dragons, as well as a few things made from dragon.

 

Random treasure-trove generation chart? Not really a game system for "random", but just thinking out loud.

 

Dragon-Human "relations". (No, not political/social relations. I'm speaking of Half-dragons or dragon-blooded beings.)

 

(One of my favorite FH scenarios I ever ran was with a dragon. Probably my favorite because the heroes avoided certain death by offering the dragon an alternative to fighting)

[ghost-angel]

Re: THE BOOK OF DRAGONS -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

Kraken: Bestiary p94

 

I'd like to see some info on dragons from different legends; Eastern, Western, South American, etc.

 

Also, maybe some info on running a Monster Campaign.

 

As for giant monstrosities for Chapter 2, maybe a few more Qliphothic things. Maybe some treatment of elemental forces as Monsters (what happens when the Lake itself is a monster).

 

We need a House statted out as a monster. You know, a plain old spooky house at the end of the block on top of the hill... only it's a monster.

 

What kind of monsters live in the Internet? Maybe some Cyberbased creatures for an Urban Fantasy Horror game. And how you fight it.

[mallet]

Re: THE BOOK OF DRAGONS -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

I agree that it would be cool to show both sides of the dragon "situation". One section/chapter,etc... detailing dragons, their powers, skills, resources, lairs, etc... and another section/chapter detailing ways, means, gear, spells, etc... for characters to fight them.

 

Kind of showing both sides to the conflict.

[Shadowsoul]

Re: THE BOOK OF DRAGONS -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

Or dragons as rulers (of non-dragon societies' date=' such as ruling human kingdoms). How would a dragon overlord interact with its human underlings? Sacrifices and such are classics, but how else? Besides food and more gold, what could a dragon ruler want his human underlings to provide (or keep at bay) that the dragon couldn't easily do itself?[/quote']

 

 

I think there is a dragon leader in Turakian Age, unless that was an innovation by my GM.

[John-Walton]

Re: THE BOOK OF DRAGONS -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

What of an economy where dragons are near the bottom of the food chain?

 

Dragons used as resources, mounts, servants, tools, guards, or "lap dogs" ?

 

Why is that way ? Tradition, curse, Magic?

Or did the Drakon Lord just lose a bet 997 years ago?

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: THE BOOK OF DRAGONS -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

Let's see:

 

Inclusion of dragon-like creatures as well: wyverns, lindworms, etc.

 

Stuff you can do with dragon parts: potions made from dragon blood, armor made from dragon scales, teeth, horns, bones, claws, meat, etc.

 

Arrangement and design of a dragon's lair: there should be more to it (at least sometimes) than just a cave and a pile of treasure.

 

Why do they hoard treasure? You never see them enjoying it.

 

Other types of creatures that may be based on dragons: a golem/elemental/demon in the shape of a dragon, a giant plant or insect that has evolved into a roughly dragon-like shape as an adaptation, a fake "dragon-machine" used by a charlatan wizard to fool the people of the village (perhaps sort of a dragon-shaped mecha), et al.

 

Other special abilities of dragons besides the standard fire-breathing: venomous fangs (or other parts: horns, claws, spines, tail-stingers), the "evil-eye" (I seem to remember reading somewhere the etymology of the word "dragon", and that it came from words meaning "creature with the evil eye"

 

Ecological impact of the presense of a dragon (or dragons) in an area.

 

Different dragons for different ecological niches - including aquatic dragons/sea serpents

[Guest Admiral C]

Re: THE BOOK OF DRAGONS -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

I'd like to see a small section of how players can beat such powerful foes and how GMs can make them more beatable for all groups above and beyond just dropping a few points here and there. That said I don't think that will be in there.

 

What I can ask for and see being in there are weaker dragons, maybe a very young but malicious dragon whose a genius or a very old dragon who has mostly turned to stone but uses extensive mental magic. maybe a miniature dragon whose a powerful illusionist and makes others think he is big and powerful. A draco lich is practically a requirement.

 

Beyond this maybe a few powerful dragon slaying magic items. Maybe they don't get text space but could be included on an NPCs character sheet.

[JmOz]

Re: THE BOOK OF DRAGONS -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

Two things I would like to see is a template for a Dragon Rider/Knight and a character sheet for a Horse size Dragon like creature

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: THE BOOK OF DRAGONS -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

 

We need a House statted out as a monster. You know, a plain old spooky house at the end of the block on top of the hill... only it's a monster.

 

And it's little cousin the PCs could run into - a Gazebo.

[BobGreenwade]

Re: THE BOOK OF DRAGONS -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

My general preference' date=' for various reasons, is not to "stat out" specific dragons from myth and legend, such as Tiamat or the Midgardsormr, but I'll give it some thought.[/quote']Should you change your mind, I'd like to also suggest Zahhak.

Or dragons as rulers (of non-dragon societies' date=' such as ruling human kingdoms). How would a dragon overlord interact with its human underlings? Sacrifices and such are classics, but how else? Besides food and more gold, what could a dragon ruler want his human underlings to provide (or keep at bay) that the dragon couldn't easily do itself?[/quote']

Two things I would like to see is a template for a Dragon Rider/Knight and a character sheet for a Horse size Dragon like creature

These are both things I was going to suggest' date=' so consider them seconded.

And it's little cousin the PCs could run into - a Gazebo.

Though this was clearly meant as a joke, it might not be that bad of an idea.

 

One thing that might go without saying is to include information on dragon legends from all around the world. The stuff from Asian Bestiary is a very good start, but there are also dragon legends on the American continents that may warrant inclusion.

 

Also, I've previously recommended Dragon's World: A Fantasy Made Real, but now seems like an even more appropriate time. If you haven't already seen it, do so ASAP. It's very good, and very informative.