THE BOOK OF DRAGONS -- What Do *You* Want To See?

[Steve Long]

Re: THE BOOK OF DRAGONS -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

OK, let me see if I can re-direct the discussion a little bit.

 

Don't take the title of the book too literally. Unquestionably it's going to have a lot of dragons, but it's not just about dragons, just like Monster Island isn't just about giant monsters. It might help you to think of TBoD as "the book of really big and powerful Fantasy threats that generally aren't humanoid." (I don't want to have liches and stuff; we have NKN for that sort of thing.)

 

So, in making suggestions, think about what sort of major monsters and the like that you could envision for a Fantasy game, and which of them you might like to see in this book.

 

And to stave off any further suggestions along these lines: I'm not going to go out and read a bunch of books or watch a bunch of "documentaries" about what dragons are "really like," or anything like that. To the extent I want to talk about dragon biology or whatever (and that's a veeeery small extent at best), I can just make up my own information. I want to keep this book relatively direct, simple, and useful, not get too bogged down in trivia and minutia.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: THE BOOK OF DRAGONS -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

So' date=' in making suggestions, think about what sort of major monsters and the like that you could envision for a Fantasy game, and which of them you might like to see in this book. [/quote']Actively sentient and hostile environments. For example, many mythic/fantastic cultures have a "God of the Sea" that sailors try to appease, etc. Well what if the ocean itself really is alive and malevolent, and will rise up to swallow disrespectful sailors who stir its ire? What kinds of appeasements might it demand and why? What if sacrificing maidens to the nearby volcano isn't just superstition, but actually does keep the living lava from deciding to consume the village? How might you defeat the sinister molten rock?

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: THE BOOK OF DRAGONS -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

Actively sentient and hostile environments. For example' date=' many mythic/fantastic cultures have a "God the Sea" that sailors try to appease, etc. Well what if the ocean itself really [b']is[/b] alive and malevolent, and will rise up to swallow disrespectful sailors who stir its ire? What kinds of appeasements might it demand and why? What if sacrificing maidens to the nearby volcano isn't just superstition, but actually does keep the living lava from deciding to consume the village? How might you defeat the sinister molten rock?

 

Or the sentient swamp in the Thomas Covenant books. I like that idea.

 

Big monsters -

 

Dunno if this is outside the scope but some monster(s) from beyond understanding (a nod to The Mythos), throw in some fantasy Kiaju, maybe a take on a Terrasque, or a super dinosaur, sandworms a l a dune (or some other beastie that moves through the ground and is huge). Constructs like a huge golem, or a living Sphinx statue. A giant zombie/skeleton made up of hundreds of normal Zombies or skeletons.

[teh bunneh]

Re: THE BOOK OF DRAGONS -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

Gotta have a Dracoliche.

 

Elementals. An Earth Elemental the size of a mountain (or maybe it *is* the mountain!). A Water Elemental as big as a lake, a Fire Elemental that is actually a volcano, etc.

 

A giant zombie/skeleton made up of hundreds of normal Zombies or skeletons.

 

There was a Clive Barker short story like that. One of his better ones, IIRC.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: THE BOOK OF DRAGONS -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

Don't take the title of the book too literally. Unquestionably it's going to have a lot of dragons' date=' but it's not [i']just[/i] about dragons, just like Monster Island isn't just about giant monsters. It might help you to think of TBoD as "the book of really big and powerful Fantasy threats that generally aren't humanoid." (I don't want to have liches and stuff; we have NKN for that sort of thing.)

 

I can't stress enough that this fact needs to be heavily emphasized in advertising for the book. So far no one I've spoken or corresponded with who saw that title (including myself) would have thought that the subject of the book will be that broad. That could cost you sales among those buyers who stop reading when the title doesn't capture them.

 

Perhaps consider adding a subtitle to the book, something like "and Other Great Beasts."

[teh bunneh]

Re: THE BOOK OF DRAGONS -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

It might help you to think of TBoD as "the book of really big and powerful Fantasy threats that generally aren't humanoid."

 

It needs to have the Vorpal Bunny!

[Lord Liaden]

Re: THE BOOK OF DRAGONS -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

Not to mention the Death Tribble!

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: THE BOOK OF DRAGONS -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

I can't stress enough that this fact needs to be heavily emphasized in advertising for the book. So far no one I've spoken or corresponded with who saw that title (including myself) would have thought that the subject of the book will be that broad. That could cost you sales among those buyers who stop reading when the title doesn't capture them.

 

Perhaps consider adding a subtitle to the book, something like "and Other Great Beasts."

 

Very much agreed with this. I'd have expected this book to go into great detail about ecology and biology of the dragon, along with lots and lots of character sheets for dragons. All Dragons, All The Time.

 

That said; some other great threats to include might be demonic beings, Chthulhoid horrors, gods, and so forth, with maybe sidebars for things like AIs that have their hooks into every information stream in the country (so they can eavesdrop on cell phones, misdirect/spoof emails, and send killer robots and/or MIB teams after you).

[Curufea]

Re: THE BOOK OF DRAGONS -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

For other monsters - I'd like to see a section on Gods as antagonists (and not non-human/cthulhoid Gods). It's a classic of fantasy stories - especially Roman and Greek myths.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: THE BOOK OF DRAGONS -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

For other monsters - I'd like to see a section on Gods as antagonists (and not non-human/cthulhoid Gods). It's a classic of fantasy stories - especially Roman and Greek myths.

I'd think that might warrant its own book... (One I'd like to see, FWIW.)

[Spence]

Re: THE BOOK OF DRAGONS -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

OK, let me see if I can re-direct the discussion a little bit.

 

Don't take the title of the book too literally. Unquestionably it's going to have a lot of dragons, but it's not just about dragons, just like Monster Island isn't just about giant monsters. It might help you to think of TBoD as "the book of really big and powerful Fantasy threats that generally aren't humanoid." (I don't want to have liches and stuff; we have NKN for that sort of thing.)

 

So, in making suggestions, think about what sort of major monsters and the like that you could envision for a Fantasy game, and which of them you might like to see in this book.

 

And to stave off any further suggestions along these lines: I'm not going to go out and read a bunch of books or watch a bunch of "documentaries" about what dragons are "really like," or anything like that. To the extent I want to talk about dragon biology or whatever (and that's a veeeery small extent at best), I can just make up my own information. I want to keep this book relatively direct, simple, and useful, not get too bogged down in trivia and minutia.

 

I can't stress enough that this fact needs to be heavily emphasized in advertising for the book. So far no one I've spoken or corresponded with who saw that title (including myself) would have thought that the subject of the book will be that broad. That could cost you sales among those buyers who stop reading when the title doesn't capture them.

 

Perhaps consider adding a subtitle to the book, something like "and Other Great Beasts."

 

Very much agreed with this. I'd have expected this book to go into great detail about ecology and biology of the dragon, along with lots and lots of character sheets for dragons. All Dragons, All The Time.

 

That said; some other great threats to include might be demonic beings, Chthulhoid horrors, gods, and so forth, with maybe sidebars for things like AIs that have their hooks into every information stream in the country (so they can eavesdrop on cell phones, misdirect/spoof emails, and send killer robots and/or MIB teams after you).

 

Very very important points by Chris Goodwin and Lord Liaden that I agree with .

 

For example, I base my vision of Dragon's on the old epic tales where a Dragon is a godlike being, not something PC's defeat or kill. Rather they survive by skill and or luck. In many ‘world settings’ if they have a Dragon, it is the only one in existence. The idea of a 'Dragon Society' or 'Dragons as mounts' is just non-existent. Domesticated reptiles sure, but actual Dragons, no.

 

So when I read ‘Book of Dragons’ it immediately went into the ‘pointless bucket’ and I thought to myself ‘just another hack a creature to death for treasure’ book.

 

But after reading your post and the thread, the book is now an item of interest. But there might be value in a title change. I can’t think of a really good ones myself, but something like ‘Legendary Creatures’ or ‘Dragons and Creatures of Lore’ or something that actually sounds good. But ‘Book of Dragons’ says “I am all about Dragons and nothing else”.

 

YMMV but for what it's worth, that's my 2 cents

[mallet]

Re: THE BOOK OF DRAGONS -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

Or the sentient swamp in the Thomas Covenant books. I like that idea.

 

Vibora Bay source book has a sentient swamp in it. I know that it's avatar is written-up in the book, but I can't remember if the swamp itself is.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: THE BOOK OF DRAGONS -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

Specifically with regard to Dragons:

 

I want to see some good illustrations where the dragons don't look humanoid. It always bugs me to see human-looking musculature on a dragon. I've seen many pictures like this, such a a rearing dragon whose upper torso looks like a man's torso but with scales, dragon limbs that look almost exactly like human arms and legs. Make sure the artists understand the difference between reptiles and primates.

 

WRT Other creatures:

 

The same thing applies! If we're talking about non-humanoid creatures, make sure they *look* non-humanoid.

 

Creatures of different levels of intelligence and hostility: Some are truly "monsters", while others are just dumb beasts - some might even be usable as mounts/vehicles, or have other uses. Some are voracious killers, while others might be subtler villains. Some fight you, while others try to manipulate you. Some want to eat you, others to enslave you. Some just want to be left alone and are quite capable of defending themselves. Some carry horrible diseases that they'll inflict on you without any conscious effort.

 

And how about some material on treasure hoards and how to handle them? What impact will the liberation of a massive pile of long-forgotten gold have on a campaign?

[Nolgroth]

Re: THE BOOK OF DRAGONS -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

Personally I'd like to see how Dragons and the "dragon people" from Turakian Age are connected.

[Maur]

Re: THE BOOK OF DRAGONS -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

Specifically with regard to Dragons:

 

I want to see some good illustrations where the dragons don't look humanoid. It always bugs me to see human-looking musculature on a dragon. I've seen many pictures like this, such a a rearing dragon whose upper torso looks like a man's torso but with scales, dragon limbs that look almost exactly like human arms and legs. Make sure the artists understand the difference between reptiles and primates.

 

Just because they're scaly doesn't mean they are reptiles.

 

As to the rest, well, the big problem is making sure their torso has the anatomy to handle flight. If they are 4-limbed with wings, then where are the muscles that drive the wings. If they are 2-limbed with wings, then the pectorals and other muscles should be the primary motive force for flight (see bird anatomy) with some secondary use if they can walk on those wing limbs while on the ground.

[BobGreenwade]

Re: THE BOOK OF DRAGONS -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

OK, let me see if I can re-direct the discussion a little bit.

 

Don't take the title of the book too literally. Unquestionably it's going to have a lot of dragons, but it's not just about dragons, just like Monster Island isn't just about giant monsters. It might help you to think of TBoD as "the book of really big and powerful Fantasy threats that generally aren't humanoid." (I don't want to have liches and stuff; we have NKN for that sort of thing.)

 

So, in making suggestions, think about what sort of major monsters and the like that you could envision for a Fantasy game, and which of them you might like to see in this book.

 

And to stave off any further suggestions along these lines: I'm not going to go out and read a bunch of books or watch a bunch of "documentaries" about what dragons are "really like," or anything like that. To the extent I want to talk about dragon biology or whatever (and that's a veeeery small extent at best), I can just make up my own information. I want to keep this book relatively direct, simple, and useful, not get too bogged down in trivia and minutia.

Understood. I figured you've already read all, or nearly all the books on the topic you intend to, and ditto with seeing movies and documentaries, before starting. That's been your practice to date, and I had no real expectation otherwise. This particular one is simply so interesting and well-done on several levels that, even though you likely won't use any of the "information" directly, it can give some threads of thought. Plus, it's enjoyable.

 

As for the non-dragon content, I just hadn't been able to come up with much in my previous posting. I have something now, below.

I can't stress enough that this fact needs to be heavily emphasized in advertising for the book. So far no one I've spoken or corresponded with who saw that title (including myself) would have thought that the subject of the book will be that broad. That could cost you sales among those buyers who stop reading when the title doesn't capture them.

 

Perhaps consider adding a subtitle to the book, something like "and Other Great Beasts."

I think this is a very good suggestion.

It needs to have the Vorpal Bunny!

Er.... not if the book is supposed to emphasize the "large economy size" monsters.

 

As for non-dragon beasties, I think the book would do well to include a few dinosaurs that weren't in HSB, and at least a couple of Lovecraftian-style monsters (probably listed as Qliphothic [sp] critters, to tie in with the Hero Universe).

[teh bunneh]

Re: THE BOOK OF DRAGONS -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

It needs to have the Vorpal Bunny!

 

Er.... not if the book is supposed to emphasize the "large economy size" monsters.

 

It's not the size of the bunny in the fight. It's the size of the fight in the bunny.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: THE BOOK OF DRAGONS -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

As for the non-dragon content, I just hadn't been able to come up with much in my previous posting. I have something now, below. :)I think this is a very good suggestion.Er.... not if the book is supposed to emphasize the "large economy size" monsters.

 

While it's not large, the vorpal bunny is definitely economical... violent death in a cute, fuzzy package. What more could you want?

[L. Marcus]

Re: THE BOOK OF DRAGONS -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

. . . Less copyright infringement?

[The Main Man]

Re: THE BOOK OF DRAGONS -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

Dragons as Package Deals

 

Dragon Magic

 

Dragon Magic Items

 

Dragons in Space

 

Alternative Breath Weapons

 

Dragons suited to different environments

 

Wyverns, wyrms, and drakes.

 

How about Juvenile Fantasy Dragons - My Little Dragon?

[Sociotard]

Re: THE BOOK OF DRAGONS -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

Expanded rules for fighting Giant Monsters. Reprint the "fighting while swallowed whole" rules from the bestiary. Also include special climbing modifiers for playing flea. How to hobble and trip a giant monster like Luke did the AT-AT.

 

Tangential monsters (monsters that are medium-sized or smaller, but accompany the biguns). Those could be the Parisites from "Cloverfield" or a cult of Sycophants for a dragon. (they like having people tell them they're awesome all day)

 

Instead of "environment as Monster", how about "monster as environment"? I'm imagining PCs learning a dragon swallowed a treasure, and them going in through the mouth to find it, then fighting magot swarms and other treasure hunters. Or a villiage that's a mining colony built over a Colossal Golem, or even a revisit of the Turtle Island in the bestiary. The problem here is that this would suggest maps, and Hero's map products haven't sold as well as hoped.

 

I love the "Haunted House as Monster" and "Swamp/forest/mountain/other area as monster" ideas.

 

Do make sure there are stupid/beastial dragons in the book. I'm sick of all the D&D sentient dragons.

 

Giant colony of roaming army ants? I normally just add a size template to the swarm monster in the Bestiary, with autofire on its attacks (because it can attack many people easily). Oooh, actually, treating a goblin horde as a monster could be kind of fun, going off that direction.

[Spence]

Re: THE BOOK OF DRAGONS -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

Do make sure there are stupid/beastial dragons in the book. I'm sick of all the D&D sentient dragons.

 

QFT!

 

Giant colony of roaming army ants? I normally just add a size template to the swarm monster in the Bestiary' date=' with autofire on its attacks (because it can attack many people easily). Oooh, actually, treating a goblin horde as a monster could be kind of fun, going off that direction. [/quote']

 

Now that sounds like an idea

[Lord Liaden]

Re: THE BOOK OF DRAGONS -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

As for non-dragon beasties' date=' I think the book would do well to include a few dinosaurs that weren't in HSB, and at least a couple of Lovecraftian-style monsters (probably listed as Qliphothic [sp'] critters, to tie in with the Hero Universe).

 

Yes to both.

 

 

Expanded rules for fighting Giant Monsters. Reprint the "fighting while swallowed whole" rules from the bestiary. Also include special climbing modifiers for playing flea. How to hobble and trip a giant monster like Luke did the AT-AT.

 

Do make sure there are stupid/beastial dragons in the book. I'm sick of all the D&D sentient dragons.

 

Giant colony of roaming army ants? I normally just add a size template to the swarm monster in the Bestiary, with autofire on its attacks (because it can attack many people easily). Oooh, actually, treating a goblin horde as a monster could be kind of fun, going off that direction.

 

All good ideas.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: THE BOOK OF DRAGONS -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

Just because they're scaly doesn't mean they are reptiles.

 

As to the rest, well, the big problem is making sure their torso has the anatomy to handle flight. If they are 4-limbed with wings, then where are the muscles that drive the wings. If they are 2-limbed with wings, then the pectorals and other muscles should be the primary motive force for flight (see bird anatomy) with some secondary use if they can walk on those wing limbs while on the ground.

Whatever they are, they shouldn't look like humans with prosthetic wings, claws, tail, and a Halloween mask.

 

I mean it literally when I say that I've seen pictures of "dragons" that have mammalian-like pecs and six-pack abs, human-like collar bones. I think I've even seen ones with nipples and belly-buttons! Sometimes they have dog- or cat-like legs - basically paws with scales. Artists who want to paint/draw dragons should study the anatomy of reptiles, dinosaurs, etc.

[Guest Admiral C]

Re: THE BOOK OF DRAGONS -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

OK, let me see if I can re-direct the discussion a little bit.

 

Don't take the title of the book too literally. Unquestionably it's going to have a lot of dragons, but it's not just about dragons, just like Monster Island isn't just about giant monsters. It might help you to think of TBoD as "the book of really big and powerful Fantasy threats that generally aren't humanoid." (I don't want to have liches and stuff; we have NKN for that sort of thing.)

 

So, in making suggestions, think about what sort of major monsters and the like that you could envision for a Fantasy game, and which of them you might like to see in this book.

 

So it's basically a beastiary for really high point monsters. Huh. Really high point monsters typically come in dragons, demons, godlings, and giants. To a lesser extent djinns and golems. I'm going to assume your looking for suggestions for something there can be more than one of and not a list of unique monsters. What I'd like:

 

1) Something that fills the Mind Flayer slot other than the Midgalar (they don't really do it for me), they wouldn't have to use psis

2) Something that fills an extra dimensional race/being aside from the quilpoth (who once again have never really interested me)

 

These first two would be substitutes for their counterparts in MMM or at the very least extras to the world. I can't think of anything that is underrepresented in MMM, the HB or even the two Asian Beastiarys. I'm going to go a little far out but since it's just suggestions.... That and that seems to be the D&D way creating bizarre monsters just as an excuse to so many varied power levels.

 

3) A race of living statues dedicated to an evil god. When a church of (blank) gets to a certain level on infamy a specially consecrated statue comes to life to lead them.

 

4) The great sand turtles. Repositories of wisdom but they dwell in the deepest deserts, traveling at high speeds under the sands to not be bothered by mortal man.

 

5) The Infernal dead. There is one house of demons that have learned to bind their spirits to that of the undead. The price is that the bond is permanent until the vessel is destroyed and the demon left weak for centuries. While in this form they become extremely tough and have "the hunger" for living essences in the form of gore. The hunger affect other mindless undead as well, they become swifter, tougher, and more aggressive. They gain the hunger too but no benefit from it.

 

6) The Uhtar-Sharthak, giant version of the sharkmen of the Turakian Age who can also change form into a giant shark to match the size of their giant humanoid form.

 

7) The Deep Ghoul. A ghoul the size of a hill giant but a blind tunneler that creates sink holes under graveyards.

 

8) Giant insects that have the ability to graft themselves to each other and create a hive mind capable of mental and magical attacks.

 

9) Dire lycanthropes, savage primitive versions. Could be some templates.

 

10) Elemental undead, undead tied to their particular element and having magical powers associated with it. Not much of a big threat but enough of one that in their traditional "roving groups" they would be much more dangerous than the average undead fodder.

 

11) Intelligent upright dinosaurs. They guard their "eternal green valley" dimension.

 

12) Para elementals, lighting, magma, ice, with appropriate powers.

 

13) Ghost eaters. A race of being that appear humanoid but subsist entirely on ghosts and spirits. They are extremely long lived and possess the knowledge of those the eat. When they die the ghosts are released but ghost eaters often instinctively seek out other ghost eaters to feats on their contents. However their biggest weakness is their overriding hunger.

 

14) There are two ways to make a flesh golem, one that grants sentience and one that doesn't. Sentient flesh golems often seek to make more of themselves as long as they remain secret.

 

15) A race of intelligent weapons. Instead of each intelligent weapon being created separately these are all a hive mind. It could be because they all contain metal from the same vein of ore or from the same meteor or even from the same mountain. Either way all the weapons, hundreds of them, have their own purpose and control fortune and luck enough to find wielders who make decisions and they guide them through dreams and outright mind control to craft "the great forge" where they can be one again.

 

16) In times past there was a breed of Medusa that is now extinct, their victims are not. After decades of immobility their curse change, they became living statues with mad purpose.

 

17) The Dream Beavers. Psychic fragments that take on the form of beavers and block rivers in the dream realm causing chaos and madness. This is a little out there though....

 

18) From my own campaign, the Rix or the White Eyes, a race of pure white eyes and skin whose abominations before the gods drove them from this plane and the sky stretched to distance their gods such as The Night Sky That Hungers

 

19) The sky sharks (I can't think of a better name). A race of sharks that has the ability to create a fog upon the water and the coasts. This fog is magical and allows them to swim through it just as water.

 

20) The crystal minds. Crystal balls that each contain the skull of a powerful wizard or caster. They are the hidden inner cabal of the Order of the Orb.

 

21) The para lizard. Able to change it's coloration and it's breath weapon to many different special effects. It can live almost anywhere and with time can adjust resistance to any element. The key is time though, it's breath weapon can change special effect from round to round but it's external resistance takes weeks to take effect.

 

22) The fire gut worm. A massive tunneling worm that is often harnessed by Sunless realm dwellers as a tunneling machine. But beware, when it spawns it's young (indestructible at birth) it explodes with enough force to cause cave ins and if close enough to the surface can rock the country side.

 

23) As I recalled the remorhaz was a mythological creature.

 

24) The mountain maidens, a race of cursed beings, elven maidens who must keep the mountains peaks and feed off the shrieking winds. Their own voices are hushed whispers or mimic the howling winds themselves. Over distance and space they can even mimic others and are sometimes called the echo stealers.

 

Ok, I'm tapped out right now.