The Joker Scenario

[jkwleisemann]

Primarily a question for CvK'ers....

 

You've been tracking a vicious supervillain who's been leaving a trail of mutilated victims (not all of them dead) behind him throughout the city. On catching up with him, you stop him from finishing with his most recent victim, and chase him until you have him pinned down, at which point you find that you're chasing the infamous Monster - he has a track record of this sort of thing, and every time he's been apprehended, he's managed to escape, usually leaving a trail of bodies behind him.

 

You've got him pinned down, and subdued (for now). There's no telling how long it'll be until recovers, but right now you've got a golden opportunity to put a permanent end to his threat. No witnesses (the rest of your team is still catching up), nobody likely to regret it aside from you... and no resistance. The Monster, for these purposes, is a magical construction; a gothic horror animated from dead flesh and infused with the essence of evil itself, utterly inhuman.

 

Does your response change any if you find yourself facing Caine, a refugee from Dark Champions who's got the same track record the Monster does, but is actually human (in body, at least)?

 

Does your response change if a teammate or DNPC was one of the victims?

 

The goal here isn't a "right or wrong" answer, but rather looking at how various characters would handle an irredeemable, lethal foe who only exists for the kill - the Dark Knight scenario, if you will.

[Zac]

Re: The Joker Scenario

 

Primarily a question for CvK'ers....

 

You've been tracking a vicious supervillain who's been leaving a trail of mutilated victims (not all of them dead) behind him throughout the city. On catching up with him, you stop him from finishing with his most recent victim, and chase him until you have him pinned down, at which point you find that you're chasing the infamous Monster - he has a track record of this sort of thing, and every time he's been apprehended, he's managed to escape, usually leaving a trail of bodies behind him.

 

You've got him pinned down, and subdued (for now). There's no telling how long it'll be until recovers, but right now you've got a golden opportunity to put a permanent end to his threat. No witnesses (the rest of your team is still catching up), nobody likely to regret it aside from you... and no resistance. The Monster, for these purposes, is a magical construction; a gothic horror animated from dead flesh and infused with the essence of evil itself, utterly inhuman.

 

Does your response change any if you find yourself facing Caine, a refugee from Dark Champions who's got the same track record the Monster does, but is actually human (in body, at least)?

 

Does your response change if a teammate or DNPC was one of the victims?

 

The goal here isn't a "right or wrong" answer, but rather looking at how various characters would handle an irredeemable, lethal foe who only exists for the kill - the Dark Knight scenario, if you will.

 

Apparition - has a Code vs Killing and Protect the Innocent. The gothic horror is simply a flesh robot, and he would drop a particle laser blast into his skull without much though. I could easily see Apparition slamming his knee into the spine of Caine, paralyzing him. If a victem was a friend, then he might break the spine a bit higher or he could spend the rest of his life eating through a tube.

 

American Steel (new untested character) - has no compunction about killing in defense (she is a war vet) . The military has a saying that if you are going to double tap, do on the way THRU the objective. Once you are through to the other side and come back for cleanup, they have to be treated as POWs. That said, the gothic horror is in no way human to American Steel, it is some un-natural creation never intended for this world, so she would take it out of this world. If Caine dies while fighting American Steel or American Steel had to take him out to save a person, fine. However, once he is down he would be turned over to the authorities. Same for anyone else. If Caine had injured a teammate, then that is just part of the job. If it was a person I knew well, I could see Caine having a crushed pelvis (American Steel is an 8 ft tall, 500 lbs suit). If he killed a DNPC (American Steel's 90 year old grandfather in this case), then I am sure a double tap would be in order.

 

Ace of Spades - the un-natural horror will interact with a broadhead arrow through its eye, dead dead dead. Ace of Spades motivitions were Justice not Vengence. However, he was never the judge, jury and executioner. If Caine had been found guilt and sentenced to death, then Ace would not feel any remorse about being the executioner. If he was found guily and sentenced to life in a box, then Ace would send him to prison. However, if Ace had any way of dropping Caine in a box and sinking him to the bottom of the ocean (and he could live)... he would do that. The old Superman "mirror" where Zod and his followers were sentenced, Ace would be all over that for Caine. Justice is blind, so teammates or DNPCs involvement would change little.

[Alibear]

Re: The Joker Scenario

 

The Cat would try to stop the monster for good but just beat Caine to a bloody pulp. He wouldn't murder him. Makes no odds if a team-mate or dnpc was slain.

[jkwleisemann]

Re: The Joker Scenario

 

Clarifying:

 

I'd meant a teammate or DNPC as a victim (somebody the Monster or Caine had hurt/killed), not as the perp.

[lemming]

Re: The Joker Scenario

 

Most of my chars would do similar to above.

 

Scales would treat the Monster differently being that he's well versed in magic and figures destroying this construct would only release it to form elsewhere. Obviously some sort of magical containment field is in order, similar to those used for demons and lawyers.

[Nagisawa Takumi]

Re: The Joker Scenario

 

I had all of one character that had a CvK for a little while (Long story involving multiple personalities), the other two...

 

Well, Tank would have one.

 

But in all three cases, the Monster would be no more. I can't say dead, because it wasn't alive to begin with. It doesn't apply to a CvK.

 

However, if it's Caine, then... There has to be a limit before the police get involved and assume you're his partner in crime. Every time he gets put away, he escapes and only your team (Or solo hero) captures him? Come on. In fact, they'd probably ship him out and have him executed. Where as most of my characters... Well, if the crime is horrific enough (And we're talking mutilation and murder going in the hundreds of victims) then... *Blam, Blam* and then another bullet to make sure he STAYS dead. Either that, or cripple him to the point where he CAN'T do it again.

 

Doesn't matter if I have a 20pt. CvK, at some point, you have to realize that Caine will NEVER feel remorse, never fear capture and will be back until someone stops him permanently. That's when the fun stuff begins, and pathos and character development.

[caris]

Re: The Joker Scenario

 

Adonis - Would not kill either Monster or Caine. Given that the equivalent of the IHA petitioned the courts to have him destroyed as a potentially dangerous and unstable product of an illegal biological experiment, he tends to error more towards the "it might actually be 'alive'" side of things.

 

Boost - Would trust his Biometric senses to determine if the Monster was a living being or not.

[Vulcan]

Re: The Joker Scenario

 

Most of my characters lack CvK, so I'll concentrate on the one that (kinda) does.

 

Redline is a member of the Chicago PD's Paranormal Control Division (and team liason to the Watch, so this kinda thing is just what he'd be assigned to. And while he does not have a formal CvK, his 'Policeman's Code' would function similarly in many respects.

 

In the Monster scenario, if he knows the monster is not 'truly' alive, then a crimson coup de grace is in order. It would be no more against the rules than wrecking an out-of-control car to stop it.

 

Caine, on the other hand, would be cuffed and brought in. And Redline would personally guard him 24/7 thorugh the whole process until he was executed for his crimes. Although if Caine dies in battle no tears will be shed, but Redline would arrest a helpless person rather than execute them.

 

If he manages to escape before he's convicted, same thing. If he escapes between conviction and execution... that's a little different since he's already had his day in court.

[Zac]

Re: The Joker Scenario

 

Primarily a question for CvK'ers....

 

You've been tracking a vicious supervillain who's been leaving a trail of mutilated victims (not all of them dead) behind him throughout the city. On catching up with him, you stop him from finishing with his most recent victim, and chase him until you have him pinned down, at which point you find that you're chasing the infamous Monster - he has a track record of this sort of thing, and every time he's been apprehended, he's managed to escape, usually leaving a trail of bodies behind him.

 

You've got him pinned down, and subdued (for now). There's no telling how long it'll be until recovers, but right now you've got a golden opportunity to put a permanent end to his threat. No witnesses (the rest of your team is still catching up), nobody likely to regret it aside from you... and no resistance. The Monster, for these purposes, is a magical construction; a gothic horror animated from dead flesh and infused with the essence of evil itself, utterly inhuman.

 

Does your response change any if you find yourself facing Caine, a refugee from Dark Champions who's got the same track record the Monster does, but is actually human (in body, at least)?

 

Does your response change if a teammate or DNPC was one of the victims?

 

The goal here isn't a "right or wrong" answer, but rather looking at how various characters would handle an irredeemable, lethal foe who only exists for the kill - the Dark Knight scenario, if you will.

 

Kinda reminds me of 10 Nights of the Beast where Batman has several run-ins with the KGBeast. By the end of the 4th issue, Batman has the Beast cornered in a room, in an abdonded section of Gotham sewers. The KGBeast is shouting at Batman to come get some. Batman knows they are pretty evently matched, and the KGBeast has notihing to loose (animal backed in a corner). So Batman gives a short speach as he closes the door on the KGBeast, something to the effect that in his younger days he would have taken the KGBeast up on the offer, however he is wiser and has nothing to prove. He closes the thick steel door and reinforces it with a wooden beam. Bats then leaves the KGBeast to die in that hole in the ground, thats it, end of story. Batman does have a code vs killing, but this is one time where he did not Kill a person, but his action do cause the persons death.

 

The KGBeast was a re-morseless killer working for the falling Soviet regeme. He would never stop until he was killed or his assignment was completed. It did not matter how many people he had to kill as long as he got his target. Since it would NEVER end and Batman sensed this, he put him down... by letting the environment finish the job.

[Shadow Hawk]

Re: The Joker Scenario

 

Stick would destroy (not kill) the Monster, with no qualms. It's not human, it's not even really 'alive'.

 

Caine, however, would be allowed to live. He might get a beating every time he moved, but he is human, and Stick doesn't kill people.

 

(Shadow Hawk has no CvK, and would treat both the same way: with enough force to 'end the threat'.)

[Clonus]

Re: The Joker Scenario

 

Code versus Killing does not normally cover things that aren't alive.

[sinanju]

Re: The Joker Scenario

 

Iron Maiden, Rose Hancock, Black Mask and Man-Ape all have the CvK "Reluctant to Kill." Nonetheless, they'd all destroy the Monster as a non-living threat, just like a dangerous robot. None of them would kill Cain, because he IS a living being (however despicable) AND because at this point he is no longer offering active resistance. That makes it murder, not self-defense or defense of another. That he may well escape custody later does not change that.

 

Does it change anything if a team mate or DNPC was a victim? Yes--it makes the decision harder, but doesn't change it.

 

Hell's Angel has a full-blown CvK: she won't kill Cain, but--again--Monster isn't really alive, so it gets incinerated.

 

Black Knight has no compunctions about killing. He'll cheerfully kill both of them, probably while claiming the rights of high, middle and low justice. (Not that that has any legal merit, but he's goofy that way.) But underneath the goofiness, he's deadly serious. This guy is too dangerous to live and clearly too slippery to imprison permanently--so Victor (the Black Knight) will see to it he doesn't murder any more innocents. Ever.

[hfergus]

Re: The Joker Scenario

 

All my characters would "kill" the beast if they knew it was not alive. None has CvK. Olorin would know it was a magical construct.

 

As to Caine

 

Volt - would give him a speech when up if he did not attack. If he attacked, bye bye. He'd give him one chance and tell him so. If he messed up - bye bye next time.

 

Olorin. Kill him. Remove head. Burn & scatter ashes. (he takes no chances) Hide body.

 

Black Tiger. Kill him and dispose of body.

 

Futurian. Depends. If ticked off, he'd kill him. If not, he'd give him one more chance, somewhat like Volt.

 

Leadman - Pretty much the same as Volt - only swearing may be involved.

[Badger]

Re: The Joker Scenario

 

Badger and Frosty Bob dont have CvKs. So they would kill the thing no matter the scenario.

 

 

(Exception: If that monster had killed a teammate or a DNPC, Badger would kill....with extreme pejudice. More out of vengeance than justice or pragmatism in that case)

[bubba smith]

Re: The Joker Scenario

 

tuf-man would destroy the monster but turn caine over to the law only killing him in self defense as a last resort

[Shoutybloke]

Re: The Joker Scenario

 

Silverbolt is genre-savvy enough to know that killing them won't do any good. Guys like that always come back.

[Kal'El Wayne]

Re: The Joker Scenario

 

When I use a CVK, it works as a code against:

A.) Killing something alive and sentient. I.E. an assassin.

B.) Killing something alive but not sentient. I.E. a guard dog.

C.) Dismantling something not alive but still sentient. I.E. an android.

But not against

D.) Dismantling something nonsentient which has no life. I.E. a zombie or computer gun-drone.

 

So if the Monster was sentient, it will be taken into the custody of the local magic-user superhero till a suitable prison dimension or whatever can be found for it to be banished to. If it is a mindless corpse-thing, dismantling the body is fine, but gross. As long as the thing cannot reform later.

 

The other guy is alive and sentient and therefore shall be sent to prison. Or possibly another dimension or something, if he keeps escaping and killing people.

[Vulcan]

Re: The Joker Scenario

 

The other guy is alive and sentient and therefore shall be sent to prison. Or possibly another dimension or something' date=' if he keeps escaping and killing people.[/quote']

 

Shall I assume the other dimension is hospitable to human life, but has noone there for him to kill, or did you not even consider that?

[Trebuchet]

Re: The Joker Scenario

 

Zl'f would have no problem terminating the Monster - he's not human; more of a mystical robot - but she wouldn't kill Caine. As the daughter of a professional soldier she understands sometimes killing is necessary, but she's not going to be the one doing it.

[Nagisawa Takumi]

Re: The Joker Scenario

 

To expound:

 

MACH 5 would destroy the Monster without a second thought. 'It' might be sentient, but it's not 'alive', meaning it has no rights under the U.S. constitution (In his universe.) Caine, assuming he was out cold after a hard battle, Hal (The pilot) would be silently debating what to do, all the while his TIO (As he calls her, Telemetry and Intelligence Officer, she handles the sensors on the suit via satellite linkup) would probably be telling him not to. He'd probably apologize and incinerate Caine's head with a plasma pulse from his gauntlet weapons. He's an Ex-Army Engineer who has been in combat situations, she has not.

 

Tank Matherson, another ex-army vet but somewhat naive. If this is his first encounter with Caine, he'd turn him over to the cops. Same for the next 3 times he escapes. The fourth time, a lot of soul searching and snaps his neck. Monster would be crushed into a small bundt cake like shape on the first meeting.

 

Not sure what Tai would do, as he's something of a mercenary a la Marvel's Taskmaster. But he's got something of an identity crisis going, and has no real 'friends', so he has no attachments and wouldn't be fazed by Caine. Same with the Monster, but he'd likely destroy that thing.

[Gnaskar]

Re: The Joker Scenario

 

Nightstalker (vampire with a soul): Cut the monster in two with with his broadsword. Then do his best to stop it from coming back. Try to find out who made it, and stop them (see if they are as good as escaping jails), too.

With Cain it would depend on his state. If he was conscious and begging for his life Nightstalker would send him to jail. If he was conscious and still making threats (despite being in no shape to fight) he'd get slapped until he shut up and possibly given a permanent injury. If he was unconscious he'd have about a 50-50 chance of ever waking up. Less if he hurt a DNPC.

 

Pasifier (power armored 70 year old with a total CvK): Doesn't deal BODY damage. His only power that can deal body only effects inorganic compounds, so he can't kill either of them. He probably just spray on more glue and wait for his teammates.

[input.jack]

Re: The Joker Scenario

 

Feline Fury would probably destroy the Monster; hes a construct and thus not truly "alive". But Caine would be pummeled mercilessly and taken to the authorities.

 

One of the main NPCs in the game world I just started IS Batman. Not an analog; BATMAN! (Im running a DCAU campaign). His responses would be basically the same. (The PCs are the Flash, Green Lantern, Power Girl, and Wonder Woman for the JLA game; I dont feel bad about having Batman there as an NPC at all!)

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: The Joker Scenario

 

For pretty much all of my characters for the first scenario - they'd drop him. He was created and a supernatural evil - that means no protection. He is an interloper in this world/dimension.

 

Black Cat would not kill Caine. She was possessed by her powers a long time ago, and while in that state killed someone. When she was back to her right mind she turned herself in, and pleaded no contest.

She doesn't kill because superheroes are not the legal authority to do such things. Breaking the law in that case is the same as murder.

However, right now she works for an interdimensional agency, who are, in effect, the law in certain situations. If she ran into Caine on one of her missions for them, and it was within her parvenu to take him out, she would.

The formal legalities here make a lot of difference to her - a person can be executed by the state, a person can be killed by an agent that has a license to kill by the government, but a private citizen can't (well, except in the case of extreme self defense)

 

Ballstic would not kill him. He is an ex cop and feels a lot like Black Cat does. However if the DNPC tortured and killed was his fiance I really don't know what he would do - I'd actually have to play through and see what I felt the character would do. In the past he had a different fiance, and a superagency that worked for him - and they were all killed in a big invasion scenario. He fled to space for a couple of years to clear his mind. He came back, and wasn't expecting to find love again - if his new fiance was killed... he might go off the edge and kill the perp.

 

Sift would not kill. She doesn't see that as part of the code. She might turn him over to her boyfriend (the Sorcerer Supreme to be of the planet).

 

Meeb would probably be for killing the guy, depending on what the rest of the team would do. They have taken exetreme sanctions a few times.

 

Terminal Velocity wouln't kill the dude, but would be really really torn up about it. When things like this happen, he doesn't really react with anger, he gets all depressed and goes and spends weeks dealing with it in solitude (although being a speeds the weeks usually only takes a few hours. )

[Zed-F]

Re: The Joker Scenario

 

Soulbarb is a Dark Champions character who has no CvK. She tends to rely on her Soulsight to separate the wheat from the chaff and determine whether capital punishment is warranted, especially in cases involving repeat offenders where the system has obviously not been successful in deterring/eliminating criminal behaviour. Both the Monster and Caine would be killed -- in Caine's case, his soul probably winding up in Hell somewhat before it otherwise would have. To date, her Soulsight has always proved reliable, but she's fairly young as supers go and this could theoretically change. Nevertheless, all her experience thus far has led her to conclude that leopards don't change their spots; it would take something unusual to convince her to soften her approach to proven hardened criminals.

 

Sylph is a regular Champions character who has a CvK and is something of a pollyanna to boot. She would not kill Caine (not her responsibility, that's up to the courts) and would hesitate long enough over the decision of whether to kill the Monster that undoubtedly some witnesses would show up, whereupon she wouldn't be able to bring herself to do it. She'll be glad when someone in authority shows up to take the problem out of her hands.

 

All this of course assumes that she's in control and not the Maenad when all this goes down. Maenad has few qualms about defending herself and others with lethal force if push really comes to shove and lethal force is being used on her in turn.