Who homages the Watchmen or those the Watchmen homaged?

[Certified]

Re: Who homages the Watchmen or those the Watchmen homaged?

 

Yep, and the anti-communist realpoliticker in me says, so what ? The reasonable outcome for the continued strategic unbalance between the combined strength of the Western bloc + Dr. Manhattan vs. the Soviet bloc is not MAD nuclear destruction of the world, but economic and political collapse of the Soviet bloc under the weight of their own unsustainable military expenditures, terrible economic inefficiency, and lack of sincere allegiance from their own peoples. The only real threat to that is Manhattan's alienation from humanity, and there are far better ways to deal with it than the idiotic scheme Ozzy conceived, which almost unleashed the nuclear war it purported to avoid, and may still cause it if the truth is revealed.

 

Say the US Government recruits a pool of highly-paid geniuses with interests into theoretical physics, philosophy, and exoteric science, train them in the atemporal perspective Jon lives in, and use them to give quality social interaction to Manhattan, when he's not busy playing world policeman. Also, surround him with attractive, open-minded young women that have a thing for the enigmatic powerful male figure, and do not mind sexual experimentation with theri super-powered boyfriend (he's already weathered switching a GF without snapping, it's a normal part of adjusting to immortality).

 

Even if nothing is done to revert Jon's alienation significantly, at the slow pace it has progressed, in all likelihood the Cold War shall be over with the unconditional surrender of the USSR well before it reached dangerous levels.

 

Since the expected outcome of the Cold War if the pre-Ozzy staus quo goes on, is not MAD, but the collapse of Communism. The USSR is coming into a lose-lose choice between unconditional surrender or suicide by nuclear cop, without any possiblity of inflicting any significant damage to the Western Bloc either way. The only real possiblity of MAD is created by Ozzy's actions. Veidt is a delusional paranoid megalomaniac that unconsciously vents out his frustration and hate for the conservative society which he lives in, by identifying a non-existing danger and then concocting a mass-murdering scheme to collapse it, and substitute with a hippie peacenik "utopia" (with far more significant danger of a nuclear war than before, in the long term) with himself as the enlightened god-king, of course.

 

The political underpinnings of Ozzy's stance are grounded in the positions of the 80s pacifist movement, and are proven wrong and self-destructive in the comic as they were in RL: the threat of nuclear war was not ended by the West choosing some kind of fuzzy peacenik hippie utopia where everyone got in touch with their inner Commie-lover, but by forcing the Communist bloc to face the harsh reality of its own tyrannical, corrupt, and ineffectual nature, and letting it collapse as a result.

 

Ozymandias is a villain that did mass murder in order to prevent a danger that only existed only in his own skewed perception. Maybe he was sincere, but even so, he was no any more heroic or justified than a paranoid schizophrenic that shoots his neighbor because he's persuaded that the neighbor is poisoning him.

 

Your cometary has the perspective of history not the perspective of the time period. When Reagan began talks with the USSR and Gorbachev he was ridiculed by his own party, political strategists and the intelligence community and very importantly by Nixon as being wrong for engaging the enemy and falling for communist propaganda. No one ever said what Ozymandias did was the right answer. What I pointed out is that there is a difference in perspective from life during this time period versus looking at it through the lens of history.

[Wanderer]

Re: Who homages the Watchmen or those the Watchmen homaged?

 

Your cometary has the perspective of history not the perspective of the time period. When Reagan began talks with the USSR and Gorbachev he was ridiculed by his own party' date=' political strategists and the intelligence community and very importantly by Nixon as being wrong for engaging the enemy and falling for communist propaganda. No one ever said what Ozymandias did was the right answer. What I pointed out is that there is a difference in perspective from life during this time period versus looking at it through the lens of history.[/quote']

 

No, my comment is actually me channeling my perspective as a teen in the early-mid 80s, when my political outlook (social libertarian economical moderate foreign policy hawk) was born. I remember using such arguments opposing my misguided left-wing peers that were pre-Gorbachev pacifist activists, and the discovery at the end of the decade that my perspective had completely right all the way along. I lived through the first half of the 80s, and not all of us were thinking "better red than dead".

[lemming]

Re: Who homages the Watchmen or those the Watchmen homaged?

 

edit: naw, I'm just not in the right frame of mind to answer that.

 

All in all, I'd rather hear of nifty Watchmen homages.

 

A friend of mine did a nice Rorschach homage with Curu. He wasn't entirely based off of the Rorschach model, but had a similar dress style. I wonder if I have his origin style on disk anywhere.

[Certified]

Re: Who homages the Watchmen or those the Watchmen homaged?

 

No' date=' my comment is actually me channeling my perspective as a teen in the early-mid 80s, when my political outlook (social libertarian economical moderate foreign policy hawk) was born. I remember using such arguments opposing my misguided left-wing peers that were pre-Gorbachev pacifist activists, and the discovery at the end of the decade that my perspective had completely right all the way along. I lived through the first half of the 80s, and not all of us were thinking "better red than dead".[/quote']

 

Okay

[jwpacker]

Re: Who homages the Watchmen or those the Watchmen homaged?

 

Not one of us had ever heard of the Watchmen when we were playing Champions back in the day, but one guy we played with seemed to make nothing but unconscious Sally Jupiter homages... Looking back, it feels like Moore stole the idea from him!

 

I'm personally in the same boat as many who have commented here - I tend to really geek out on characters who are essentially normal, but the peak of normal, or at least really close to it. It kinda irked me that in the Champions books, Teleios with his 30 stats is listed as being the perfect human...

[Split Decision]

Re: Who homages the Watchmen or those the Watchmen homaged?

 

back in the day' date=' but one guy we played with seemed to make nothing but unconscious Sally Jupiter homages...[/quote']

 

I bet we all played with That Guy. I have to very conciously avoid becoming That Guy. Sometimes I have to steer well clear of a concept because it gets into Sally Jupiter territory, and I embarass myself. I think I'm a little too sensitive to this, in fact. Making superwomen in general is harder for me than making supermen since I get super-critical about the sex object angle.

 

Am I alone?

[jwpacker]

Re: Who homages the Watchmen or those the Watchmen homaged?

 

Am I alone?

 

Not in doing it, nor in feeling uncomfortable with it, I'm sure.

[Kenn]

Re: Who homages the Watchmen or those the Watchmen homaged?

 

Pete Cannon is the character for Ozymandias only DC didn't own him. Pete Morisi did.

CES

 

DC did have the rights to Peter Cannon, Thunderbolt, in the 1980s when Watchmen was done. If Moore had been given the go ahead to use the Charlton heroes, Thunderbolt would have been in it.

 

The rights reverted to Morisi in the early-to-mid 1990s, after DC's "Thunderbolt" series ended.

 

 

I have an NPC, Ms. Scarlet, who was inspired by Ted Kord. http://www.rcuhero.net/hsheets/msscarlet.htm

[bubba smith]

Re: Who homages the Watchmen or those the Watchmen homaged?

 

As i understand it mr morisi owned 50% of peter cannon,thunderbolt when charlton sold him to dc comics when they learned of theproblem the returned the rights to avoid a lawsuit

[Hermit]

Re: Who homages the Watchmen or those the Watchmen homaged?

 

 

I have an NPC, Ms. Scarlet, who was inspired by Ted Kord. http://www.rcuhero.net/hsheets/msscarlet.htm

 

Very cool, and totally in keeping with my hopes for this thread, thank you

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Who homages the Watchmen or those the Watchmen homaged?

 

I was always rather partial to the basic premise of Thunderbolt, "unleashing the power of the mind," which Ozymandias took to a more literal level. In comics you rarely see a character with both peak-human physical and mental faculties.

 

There are lots of neat abilities that one could give a character whose mind functions faster and more accurately than normal, beyond the usual scientific or investigation Skills. You can justify more than one type of Analyze Skill; Cramming, Deduction, and Tactics are a must; Absolute Range Sense/ Time Sense; Danger Sense (recognizing subtle clues); Eidetic Memory; Lightning Calculator; various Resistances; Speed Reading; Find Weakness (calculate junctures/ stress points)... that's just off the top of my head. Combine those abilities and plenty of intellectual education with exceptional natural physical prowess and training, and you'd have a very effective, well-rounded character who's still within the range of the humanly possible.

 

For sure; I've done a few "hyper-intelligence" characters in the HERO System to overall good results; of which N3 is the most recent. The advent of Combat Luck made such characters more easily supportable without stretching credibility too far. In the past I had GM's balk at resistant def for such a concept without resorting to "gear".

[Split Decision]

Re: Who homages the Watchmen or those the Watchmen homaged?

 

Combat Luck is tremendously important to the viability of some very sensible concepts. I am thrrilled with it.

 

And I will never get to pay you all the rep I want to. N3 is tremendous. Tight, clever, elegant, believeable, and looks very playable.

[godjam]

Re: Who homages the Watchmen or those the Watchmen homaged?

 

And' date=' oh yes, saved the world and it's billions of human inhabitants from nuclear annihilation, ushering in a (probably brief) era of peace and international harmony. That bastard.[/quote']

 

"The ends justify the means means you can justify anything."

 

Toxic thoughts.

[SKJAM!]

Re: Who homages the Watchmen or those the Watchmen homaged?

 

You can justify anything--that succeeds. "The ends justify the means", in its original sense, only applies retroactively. Under that principal, as long as Ozymandias managed to get a positive outcome from his actions, achieving his goals, he's justified.

 

But if he had failed, then his actions, no matter how nobly intentioned, would become unjustified by the same measure.

 

(The failure to understand this is why so many characters who quote that phrase end up as bad guys and/or losers.)

[Wanderer]

Re: Who homages the Watchmen or those the Watchmen homaged?

 

Again, Ozzy is no savior. He killed millions just to put a (rather faulty) patch to a problem he had caused himself, harassing Dr. Manhattan until he chose self-exile. He pushed the world to the brink of nuclear war. The world was a lot safer under Jon's watch than in Ozzy's conspiratorial "utopia". Unless one had a real problem with the Communist bloc collapsing under its own inadequacy, rather than being given an artificial lease on life.

 

Me, I would choose the Cold War ending the way it ended IOTL plus having Manhattan around to churn out technological miracles to help with environmental problems, and to be unleashed to wipe out the likes of Osama and Amadinejad in a fortnight if need be, a thousand times rather than having Ozzy as God-King behind a curtain, thank you.

[input.jack]

Re: Who homages the Watchmen or those the Watchmen homaged?

 

I ran a game called "Millennium City" where one of the main NPCs was a Dr. Manhatten type called "Doctor Millennium". (The game started with him losing most of his power, and the PCs had to take up the slack).

 

Another NPC the characters ran in to was "The Eye", who was based more on The Question than on Rorschach, but since Rorschach was himself based on the Question....

[director13]

Re: Who homages the Watchmen or those the Watchmen homaged?

 

Again' date=' Ozzy is no savior. He killed millions just to put a (rather faulty) patch to a problem he had caused himself, harassing Dr. Manhattan until he chose self-exile. He pushed the world to the brink of nuclear war. The world was a lot safer under Jon's watch than in Ozzy's conspiratorial "utopia". Unless one had a real problem with the Communist bloc collapsing under its own inadequacy, rather than being given an artificial lease on life. [/quote']

 

What? No. Ozy didn't "cause a problem" getting Manhattan to leave, that was his intended result, either a: to make the aliens a credible threat or b: because Manhattan might not have gone along with the plan because he was still too squeamish, depending on which version you're looking at..

 

And the world wasn't safer under Manhattan's watch... that's what accelerated the arms race to the point of open war, let to Vietnam becoming a state, etc. And he didn't do anyting about Ozy at all, did he?

[Certified]

Re: Who homages the Watchmen or those the Watchmen homaged?

 

This thread got me thinking what would modern versions of these characters look like? Not age them 20 years but more in a modern setting how would one reimagine them.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Who homages the Watchmen or those the Watchmen homaged?

 

This thread got me thinking what would modern versions of these characters look like? Not age them 20 years but more in a modern setting how would one reimagine them.

 

Dr. Manhattan as a Wall Street / banker tycoon that abetted an unsustainable boom economy? Ozymandius as a Tyler Durden-esque reset the world via economic collapse anti-hero? The Comedian a hedge fund manager? Rorschach as a indie-press financial watchdog playing chicken little?

[Certified]

Re: Who homages the Watchmen or those the Watchmen homaged?

 

Dr. Manhattan as a Wall Street / banker tycoon that abetted an unsustainable boom economy? Ozymandius as a Tyler Durden-esque reset the world via economic collapse anti-hero? The Comedian a hedge fund manager? Rorschach as a indie-press financial watchdog playing chicken little?

 

Who Trades with the Stockmen?

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Who homages the Watchmen or those the Watchmen homaged?

 

Who Trades with the Stockmen?

 

Who Commodes the Commodities?

Who Annuls the Annuities?

Who Frauds the Fraudulent?

[Twilight]

Re: Who homages the Watchmen or those the Watchmen homaged?

 

What? No. Ozy didn't "cause a problem" getting Manhattan to leave, that was his intended result, either a: to make the aliens a credible threat or b: because Manhattan might not have gone along with the plan because he was still too squeamish, depending on which version you're looking at..

 

And the world wasn't safer under Manhattan's watch... that's what accelerated the arms race to the point of open war, let to Vietnam becoming a state, etc. And he didn't do anyting about Ozy at all, did he?

 

No I'd say the Comedian offing Woodward and Burnstein thus preventing Watergate and giving Nixon the four more years he wanted lead to open war, since in the real world better Presidents (relatively speaking) were able to avoid that.

 

Ozymandias' plan is little more then a stopgap really because it's far to easy for him to be exposed. Sure the world might be united in trying to kill him for awhile but what happens once he's dead? Everything goes back to square one, most likely.

[Zed-F]

Re: Who homages the Watchmen or those the Watchmen homaged?

 

You can justify anything--that succeeds. "The ends justify the means", in its original sense, only applies retroactively. Under that principal, as long as Ozymandias managed to get a positive outcome from his actions, achieving his goals, he's justified.

 

But if he had failed, then his actions, no matter how nobly intentioned, would become unjustified by the same measure.

 

(The failure to understand this is why so many characters who quote that phrase end up as bad guys and/or losers.)

This is exactly the sort of problem my character Soulbarb, a Dark Champions character, struggled with for the early part of her career. She had always been willing to use less than ethical means to succeed -- only when push came to shove, not as a matter of course -- and was always as careful as she could possibly be to not make any mistakes. To succeed.

 

The problem is, even if you don't make any mistakes, sometimes you just can't predict all the ramifications of your actions. Soulbarb eventually does come to realize this and starts striving to mend her ways, though only after things blow up on her due to circumstances beyond her awareness or control. That event is the transition point from the early Dark Champions part of her career to the later Standard Champions portion.

[Balabanto]

Re: Who homages the Watchmen or those the Watchmen homaged?

 

I was actually thinking of a cartoon in a laundromat, where Rorschach is doing the voiceover.

 

Silk Spectre keeps bending over in front of the dryer, looking like a whore. Poor Nite Owl. His coins keep getting stuck in the slot. Hrm. No soap left for me. Again. Veidt always washes twice. Stuck up pansy....

 

Who Washes the Washmen? I think so...

[Logan D. Hurricanes]

Re: Who homages the Watchmen or those the Watchmen homaged?

 

So I ask, has anybody been inspired either by the Watchmen or the characters they are loosely based on? If you like, make one now, and tweak in some small or major way. Maybe your guy in a trenchcoat with an odd mask actually has a super power, or maybe your Night Owl/Blue Beetle guy would have a different animal as inspiration.

Nite Owl has long been my preferred inspiration for the self-made man or gadgeteer types. I think it's because I found the visuals for Archie and the subway lair so compelling. That and he seems to be a genuinely good guy. If I'm being completely honest, it's also partially due to the fact that he's overweight. Even though he's thinner in the movie he'll most likely remain tops on my list.

 

That being said, I don't really do the self-made man or gadgeteer type of hero very often. But I think Archie is my favorite hero vehicle ever, so I'm looking for a way to at least work that in.