Who homages the Watchmen or those the Watchmen homaged?

[Split Decision]

Re: Who homages the Watchmen or those the Watchmen homaged?

 

Okay' date=' not one of my proudest moments but here... [/size']

Doctor Long Island

 

Don't feel too bad. I made up Kung Fu Lawyer once.

[Narratio]

Re: Who homages the Watchmen or those the Watchmen homaged?

 

When Watchmen was still rolling out, a major topic was how Rorshach got so psycho. The episode wherein we saw the young girl and the dogs was a major 'Wow'! Nobody had done that since the 50's horror comics died off. All the intimation, never solid evidence. It made Rorshach, not understandable, but believable in a 'News of the Wierd' way.

 

To me the Owlman I and II storyline was the key. Normal humans outdated by superhumans. I've tried to do it as subplot in a time travel story. Have 50/75 point WWII human heroes meeting thier modern 300pt descendents.

 

When played right, with more mature gamers playing the low point old timers, and youngsters doing the powerhouses, it can get very emotional. Buty it's hard to RP.

[csyphrett]

Re: Who homages the Watchmen or those the Watchmen homaged?

 

I find it amusing that Alan Moore has expressed such public frustration that Rorshach became so popular a character among comics fans. Moore tried to make him as unlikeable as possible' date=' to illustrate his (Moore's) position on extreme convervatism plunging into fascism. Sadly for him, Moore inadvertently tapped into the Iron Age trend to equate badassery with coolness. [/quote']

 

Rorshach might not be someone you want to hang out with but he does embodies a lot of heroic traits. He believes in justice, cares about his friends, is sympathethic to others when possible, and has a strong sense of right and wrong.

 

Compare that to Ozymandias who axed millions of people, axed the designers of the teleport device, axed the makers of the monster he dropped on New York, gave three people cancer, axed and framed a hitman to throw Rorshach off, set Rorshach up by killing a man he gave cancer too, fried his loyal pet trying to kill Dr. Manhattan, and threw one of his friends out a building's window to carry out a scheme to make himself the world's policeman which he didn't realize was going to happen until too late.

 

I'll take smelly Rorschach any day.

CES

[Certified]

Re: Who homages the Watchmen or those the Watchmen homaged?

 

Rorshach might not be someone you want to hang out with but he does embodies a lot of heroic traits. He believes in justice, cares about his friends, is sympathethic to others when possible, and has a strong sense of right and wrong.

 

Compare that to Ozymandias who axed millions of people, axed the designers of the teleport device, axed the makers of the monster he dropped on New York, gave three people cancer, axed and framed a hitman to throw Rorshach off, set Rorshach up by killing a man he gave cancer too, fried his loyal pet trying to kill Dr. Manhattan, and threw one of his friends out a building's window to carry out a scheme to make himself the world's policeman which he didn't realize was going to happen until too late.

 

I'll take smelly Rorschach any day.

CES

 

"Meeting with Veidt left bad taste in mouth. He is pampered and decadent, betraying even his own shallow, liberal, affectations. Possibly homosexual? Must remember to investigate further... ... The first Silk Specter is a bloated aging whore, dying in a Californian rest resort..."

 

- Rorschach

 

- - -

 

"Good Joke. Everybody laugh. Roll on snare drum. Curtains."

[csyphrett]

Re: Who homages the Watchmen or those the Watchmen homaged?

 

The new circle thread has some heroes based off the old Charlton guys near the start.

CES

[csyphrett]

Re: Who homages the Watchmen or those the Watchmen homaged?

 

"Meeting with Veidt left bad taste in mouth. He is pampered and decadent, betraying even his own shallow, liberal, affectations. Possibly homosexual? Must remember to investigate further... ... The first Silk Specter is a bloated aging whore, dying in a Californian rest resort..."

 

- Rorschach

 

- - -

 

"Good Joke. Everybody laugh. Roll on snare drum. Curtains."

 

"You know the kind of cancer you recover from?"

 

"Yes."

 

"That's not the kind of cancer I got."

 

"Hrm."

 

Rorshach and Moloch.

[korovan]

Re: Who homages the Watchmen or those the Watchmen homaged?

 

 

Compare that to Ozymandias who axed millions of people, axed the designers of the teleport device, axed the makers of the monster he dropped on New York, gave three people cancer, axed and framed a hitman to throw Rorshach off, set Rorshach up by killing a man he gave cancer too, fried his loyal pet trying to kill Dr. Manhattan, and threw one of his friends out a building's window to carry out a scheme to make himself the world's policeman which he didn't realize was going to happen until too late.

CES

 

And, oh yes, saved the world and it's billions of human inhabitants from nuclear annihilation, ushering in a (probably brief) era of peace and international harmony. That bastard.

[AnotherSkip]

Re: Who homages the Watchmen or those the Watchmen homaged?

 

I read the title and immediately thought of this link.

 

http://www.newgrounds.com/portal/view/485797

[Clonus]

Re: Who homages the Watchmen or those the Watchmen homaged?

 

And' date=' oh yes, saved the world and it's billions of human inhabitants from nuclear annihilation, ushering in a (probably brief) era of peace and international harmony. That bastard.[/quote']

 

Or at least that's what he claims. That's where the omniscient morality license comes in. We have his word for it that because he's so smart he figured out both what was going to happen and that his scheme is going to work, and that there wasn't a better way. I don't believe him.

[CoreBrute]

Re: Who homages the Watchmen or those the Watchmen homaged?

 

I read the title and immediately thought of this link.

 

http://www.newgrounds.com/portal/view/485797

thank you. Dear God thank you. this is a wonderful link.

 

Everyone rep the man!

[The Hawk God]

Re: Who homages the Watchmen or those the Watchmen homaged?

 

IME it's harder in a game to convey' date=' or even quantify, what makes Batman, Captain America, or Rorshach seem cool in comics or (better) movies: their presence, intimidation, force of will, power of command or leadership. How much you can lift or how many dice of damage you can throw seems to be easier for most people to grasp as part of a game.[/quote']

 

However, all of these characters share a HERO problem: they are more expensive than a solid gold elephant.

[Balabanto]

Re: Who homages the Watchmen or those the Watchmen homaged?

 

Let's see, Alan Moore couldn't use the Charlton characters, so he adapted them for this Graphic Novel.

 

The Question was replaced by Rorschach (and later, Vic Sage would announce in a comic that Rorschach sucks )

Blue Beetle II got replaced by Nite Owl II (Though a lot of Batman in this guy)

Captain Atom was replaced by the clothes disparaging Dr. Manhattan

Filling in for the Peacemaker (with a touch of Nick Fury) was Comedian

Silk Spectre while originally based on Nightshade apparently drew even more from the likes of Black Canary and Phantom Lady

Peter Cannon, Thunderbolt inspired Ozymandias

 

So I ask, has anybody been inspired either by the Watchmen or the characters they are loosely based on? If you like, make one now, and tweak in some small or major way. Maybe your guy in a trenchcoat with an odd mask actually has a super power, or maybe your Night Owl/Blue Beetle guy would have a different animal as inspiration.

 

I think I'd definitely shove them more into the classic Bronze or even silver if I were going to use homages, which is a MAJOR difference in itself at least from the Watchmen

 

I believe you are not correct on Peter Cannon. I believe the correct character he is homaging is the Judo Master.

[nexus]

Re: Who homages the Watchmen or those the Watchmen homaged?

 

Or at least that's what he claims. That's where the omniscient morality license comes in. We have his word for it that because he's so smart he figured out both what was going to happen and that his scheme is going to work' date=' and that there wasn't a better way. I don't believe him.[/quote']

 

For those interested here's a thread where this issue is/was being discussed with some relevant points on all sides. .

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=71507

[Hermit]

Re: Who homages the Watchmen or those the Watchmen homaged?

 

I believe you are not correct on Peter Cannon. I believe the correct character he is homaging is the Judo Master.

 

Well, Wikipedia is anything but infallible so that's possible

[csyphrett]

Re: Who homages the Watchmen or those the Watchmen homaged?

 

And' date=' oh yes, saved the world and it's billions of human inhabitants from nuclear annihilation, ushering in a (probably brief) era of peace and international harmony. That bastard.[/quote']

 

Which he almost caused by attacking Dr. Manhattan in the first place.

 

If he hadn't set things in motion, he wouldn't have needed to do all the things he did which could still collapse if the truth came out. I guess there would be unity in wanting his head on a pike if the world found out about it.

CES

[csyphrett]

Re: Who homages the Watchmen or those the Watchmen homaged?

 

Pete Cannon is the character for Ozymandias only DC didn't own him. Pete Morisi did.

CES

[assault]

Re: Who homages the Watchmen or those the Watchmen homaged?

 

I believe you are not correct on Peter Cannon. I believe the correct character he is homaging is the Judo Master.

 

Could you explain why you believe that?

 

Judo Master

Peter Cannon

[Certified]

Re: Who homages the Watchmen or those the Watchmen homaged?

 

Which he almost caused by attacking Dr. Manhattan in the first place.

 

If he hadn't set things in motion, he wouldn't have needed to do all the things he did which could still collapse if the truth came out. I guess there would be unity in wanting his head on a pike if the world found out about it.

CES

 

Upon rereading my post this may be flaimebait but I'm going to post it anyway. Also warning there be spoilers if you've not actually read the book.

 

Some of the perspective of Watchmen is lost if you did not grow up in the 70's and 80's. It helps if you can remember hearing air raid sirens in school and climbing under your desk or into an actual bomb shelter. Part of what Watchmen tries to capture is this ever looming fear that no mater how superior America was militarily the inevitable destruction caused by a war with the USSR could not be avoided, Mutually Assured Destruction was the best possible outcome if the nukes ever did fly.

 

"I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones." Albert Einstein, 1955.

 

Ozymandias did not set the stage, what he did was move the pieces already in place before changing the game. You can argue what the character did is wrong but the cause was not the exile of Dr. Manhattan or any other action taken, but continued escalation of the Cold War.

 

Watchmen is not a question of which character was right or wrong. All of them were flawed, they all had their own beliefs, motivations and ideals. If you walked away from reading the book thinking Ozymandias bad, Rorschach good, and that's the end of the story, reread it.

 

For the fun geek references you can say "the good of the many outweighs the good of the one" but it's not about justifying Ozymandias' actions. The setting assumes conflict between the US and USSR is inevitable. A good reference scene early on for this is the newsstand commentary. Would you undo everything and allow World War III to begin? Would you have rather done nothing and waited to see if Dr. Manhattan could have or would have stopped it?

 

Everyone will come to their own conclusions. For me it's the questions one if forced to ask when reading Watchmen, then forced to revisit at its conclusion. It is a reflection of politics and human nature, not a simple morality tale. That is what, in my opinion, makes it such a strong piece of literature. It would worry me that people reading this work would take things at face value or no longer connect with the context of the writing although I don't feel the work is dated only that modern readers should lok at the time period around the work to help frame it.

 

Okay, two cents delivered....

[csyphrett]

Re: Who homages the Watchmen or those the Watchmen homaged?

 

I have read Watchman dozens of times. I took from it that though America used Dr M as their weapon of choice and pretty much ran the world under that, Viedt used that to cause his plan to operate. he had choices and resources that could have stopped things, he just didnt

CES

[tkdguy]

Re: Who homages the Watchmen or those the Watchmen homaged?

 

On the visual side I got bored and did this. Still working on fleshing out the concept behind him mind you

Good job! Here's my take on Rorschach.

[Narratio]

Re: Who homages the Watchmen or those the Watchmen homaged?

 

I read the title and immediately thought of this link.

 

http://www.newgrounds.com/portal/view/485797

That is sooooo hilarious I'm lost for words. It is exactly how the main stream media would take a nasty story and sanitize it to heck and back.

 

A keeper, a true keeper.

[AnotherSkip]

Re: Who homages the Watchmen or those the Watchmen homaged?

 

Heh, check this out if you guys like real costuming solutions.

 

 

[Hermit]

Re: Who homages the Watchmen or those the Watchmen homaged?

 

Good job! Here's my take on Rorschach.

 

[SKJAM!]

Re: Who homages the Watchmen or those the Watchmen homaged?

 

See my avatar. The Mask of Justice takes inspiration from Rorshach, the Question, and of course the two-fisted pulp heroes, through a Golden Age lens.

[Wanderer]

Re: Who homages the Watchmen or those the Watchmen homaged?

 

Ozymandias did not set the stage, what he did was move the pieces already in place before changing the game. You can argue what the character did is wrong but the cause was not the exile of Dr. Manhattan or any other action taken, but continued escalation of the Cold War.

 

Yep, and the anti-communist realpoliticker in me says, so what ? The reasonable outcome for the continued strategic unbalance between the combined strength of the Western bloc + Dr. Manhattan vs. the Soviet bloc is not MAD nuclear destruction of the world, but economic and political collapse of the Soviet bloc under the weight of their own unsustainable military expenditures, terrible economic inefficiency, and lack of sincere allegiance from their own peoples. The only real threat to that is Manhattan's alienation from humanity, and there are far better ways to deal with it than the idiotic scheme Ozzy conceived, which almost unleashed the nuclear war it purported to avoid, and may still cause it if the truth is revealed.

 

Say the US Government recruits a pool of highly-paid geniuses with interests into theoretical physics, philosophy, and exoteric science, train them in the atemporal perspective Jon lives in, and use them to give quality social interaction to Manhattan, when he's not busy playing world policeman. Also, surround him with attractive, open-minded young women that have a thing for the enigmatic powerful male figure, and do not mind sexual experimentation with theri super-powered boyfriend (he's already weathered switching a GF without snapping, it's a normal part of adjusting to immortality).

 

Even if nothing is done to revert Jon's alienation significantly, at the slow pace it has progressed, in all likelihood the Cold War shall be over with the unconditional surrender of the USSR well before it reached dangerous levels.

 

Since the expected outcome of the Cold War if the pre-Ozzy staus quo goes on, is not MAD, but the collapse of Communism. The USSR is coming into a lose-lose choice between unconditional surrender or suicide by nuclear cop, without any possiblity of inflicting any significant damage to the Western Bloc either way. The only real possiblity of MAD is created by Ozzy's actions. Veidt is a delusional paranoid megalomaniac that unconsciously vents out his frustration and hate for the conservative society which he lives in, by identifying a non-existing danger and then concocting a mass-murdering scheme to collapse it, and substitute with a hippie peacenik "utopia" (with far more significant danger of a nuclear war than before, in the long term) with himself as the enlightened god-king, of course.

 

The political underpinnings of Ozzy's stance are grounded in the positions of the 80s pacifist movement, and are proven wrong and self-destructive in the comic as they were in RL: the threat of nuclear war was not ended by the West choosing some kind of fuzzy peacenik hippie utopia where everyone got in touch with their inner Commie-lover, but by forcing the Communist bloc to face the harsh reality of its own tyrannical, corrupt, and ineffectual nature, and letting it collapse as a result.

 

Ozymandias is a villain that did mass murder in order to prevent a danger that only existed only in his own skewed perception. Maybe he was sincere, but even so, he was no any more heroic or justified than a paranoid schizophrenic that shoots his neighbor because he's persuaded that the neighbor is poisoning him.