Justifying Playable SPD

[Ice9]

Sometimes people want to play Champions characters who are only partially super. For instance, they might have super-level powers in one area (psychic, technomancer, ...), but be otherwise normal - not inherently super fast, tough, or strong. This should be a valid concept for a PC.

 

But on the other hand, there are certain de-facto requirements for a character to be playable in anything resembling a standard champions campaign. They need to survive standard attacks, they need to be able to do something that foes won't shrug off, and they need to act often enough that the player doesn't go to sleep.

 

The first two are easily enough accomplished. A bulletproof uniform and plenty of Combat Luck will ensure basic survivability, and a decent gun with armor-piercing rounds is a credible attack (at least at standard power levels). But SPD is tricky - how does someone without metahuman agility justify a 5 SPD?

 

One option is - they don't. Just have a 2 SPD and live with it. And there are ways of making a low SPD character effective in combat (Trigger, continuing effects). But SPD isn't just a power-level issue, it's a playability issue - you are actually interacting less, playing less. In a game where combat takes up a good chunk of the play time (many of them), having a SPD 2 when the other players have a SPD 5 is pretty much like sitting out the first hour or two of the game. That may be fine for players who don't care much about combat, but for those who do, low SPD means less fun.

 

So given that, what SFX have you used / would use to justify a decent SPD for an essentially "normal" character?

[Naanomi]

Re: Justifying Playable SPD

 

Not that I have played much, but my GM recommended that if I had a character who wouldn't be 'fast', to buy speed with limitations like 'only for mental actions' or whatever. That way your mentalist (or whatever) is not a speedster, but can at least do his shtick in pace with others.

[Edsel]

Re: Justifying Playable SPD

 

SPD could also be justified by the characters situational awareness. He or she could just be so experienced or naturally talented enough that they react smoothly and efficiently in battle. Most people hesitate in combat (hence the natural speed of 2) but some people react instinctively and therefore waste little time.

 

After all it is a Champions game. People with any sort of supernatural ability are not really very realistic. Don't worry about it so much.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Justifying Playable SPD

 

I tend to equate SPD to reflexes. The character simply has very well-developed reflexes.

 

In most supers games, even someone who is 'normal' does not have to obey Normal Characteristic Maxima. I wouldn't think of limiting Daredevil or Green Lantern to 20 primary stats.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Justifying Playable SPD

 

Powered Armor - the armors systems help the character react faster.

 

Technomancer - developed a system that speeds up your natural impulses.

 

Mentalist - For Mental Actions Only speed

 

Gunslinger - For Attacks with Guns Only speed

 

And there are a few Speeds between 2 and 5. Humans can get up to Speed 4 with "NMC"

 

If the majority of the PCs are SPD 5 then a Speed 3 or 4 Character isn't that far behind the curve.

 

Besides... it's Superheroes, push the limits of what "Normal" is, they're action heroes after all.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Justifying Playable SPD

 

From Surbrook's site: Bruce Lee (modeling the actor, not any particular character he played on screen)

 

DEX 30

SPD 6

[lapsedgamer]

Re: Justifying Playable SPD

 

I tend to equate SPD to reflexes. The character simply has very well-developed reflexes.

 

In most supers games, even someone who is 'normal' does not have to obey Normal Characteristic Maxima. I wouldn't think of limiting Daredevil or Green Lantern to 20 primary stats.

 

Superheroes are generally considered to be superior to the average person by default, even a person who has some level of combat training like a soldier or a cop. It's part of the genre. Even people without more physical abilities get trained by Captain America or Wolverine to hold their own in a fight. A thug with a gun and a 3 SPD is not meant to be an overwhelming threat to most heroes, even the likes of Jubilee or Karma. SPD 4 is the minimum to me for a superhero, with 5 being the sweet spot for most that aren't speedster or martial artists types.

 

I agree with you partly on DD and GL. DD is a martial artist archetype which makes SPD and DEX his bread and butter. He would not be limited to NCM in most campaigns. GL is an example of a guy who I would in many cases give 20 DEX, 4 SPD and Lighting Reflexes and/or limited SPD to account for his ability at ring slinging. That of course depends on how I want the campaign to run in general, but you get the idea.

 

SPD could also be justified by the characters situational awareness. He or she could just be so experienced or naturally talented enough that they react smoothly and efficiently in battle. Most people hesitate in combat (hence the natural speed of 2) but some people react instinctively and therefore waste little time.

 

After all it is a Champions game. People with any sort of supernatural ability are not really very realistic. Don't worry about it so much.

 

Yep. Heroes are just better than regular folks in comics. Even people like Rick Jones, The Two-Gun Kid and Wyatt Wingfoot regularly performed far better in combat situations than they had any right to.

[Pattern Ghost]

Re: Justifying Playable SPD

 

I think this is another case of NCM intruding on the supers genre, mixed with a case of some concepts that are viable in comics not making for a viable game character.

 

In regards to the SPD score itself, I think the standard spread works. Normal folks with no combat training get a 2, cops, military, agents and others with some combat or athletic prowess get a 3, "slower" supers start at around 4, those trained or experienced in combat get a 5, and the martial artists types get a 6, all justifiable as being in the "human" range. To the rest of the campaign world, the 4 and 5 guys are going to look like action heroes, and the 6 guys like kung-fu movie heroes. Which is OK, because this is a very cinematic genre.

 

So, what about that concept that has a character with no enhanced abilities, and no background or experience in combat? Well.... scrap it. Let's face it, those types get their butts handed to them in the comics, too. Then they get "trained by Captain America in basic hand to hand combat" tacked on to their description at some point and suddenly become able to hold their own.

 

The solution to justifying whatever speed you want is simple: "Trained in basic hand to hand combat by Captain America." There ya go.

 

Now, one thing I think we don't see a balance of on the whole is that the vast lump of comics characters fall into the 4 or 5 range, with a lot more of them as 4s than 5s, unlike Champs games where they tend to drift to 5s. But that's OK, you can still play a 4 speed perfectly viably, and by comparison to the 5s and up, you'll look more like one of those normals that got trained by Cap.

[Badger]

Re: Justifying Playable SPD

 

I tend to equate SPD to reflexes. The character simply has very well-developed reflexes.

 

In most supers games, even someone who is 'normal' does not have to obey Normal Characteristic Maxima. I wouldn't think of limiting Daredevil or Green Lantern to 20 primary stats.

 

Well, if GM. I'll just throw out Normal Chareteristics Maxima. But, at least in my mind, I generall factor SPD for my characters as having something to do with reflexes.

[Badger]

Re: Justifying Playable SPD

 

A bit off topic, but I always think of this when SPD levels get thrown about.

 

What SPD would The Flash get? Considering he moves at light speed and all.

[BNakagawa]

Re: Justifying Playable SPD

 

The real thing that makes a 'super' SPD illogical is movement.

 

If you think about it, there are plenty of normals that can take 5 actions in 12 seconds. Most trained combatants can throw 5 or more attacks, shoot 5 or more targets in 12 seconds or less.

 

What these people can't do is run 250% faster than others.

 

If you don't want your combat-effective 'normal' SPD character to also be faster than Olympian sprinters, then either drop their movement or add some sort of limitation that prevents them from using all of their actions to move.

[bubba smith]

Re: Justifying Playable SPD

 

A bit off topic, but I always think of this when SPD levels get thrown about.

 

What SPD would The Flash get? Considering he moves at light speed and all.

mark waid reduced wally's topspeed to supersonic sinc he considers[ed]lightspeed the maximum attainable speed

as for partially super powersi equate that to the six million dollar mans bionic arm and bionic speed of 65MPH

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Justifying Playable SPD

 

...

What SPD would The Flash get? Considering he moves at light speed and all.

 

Whatever it takes to make him "the fastest man alive" in that campaign.

 

(See the last link in my sig below for an example of Flash built with a 6 SPD where all other JLA members have a 4 SPD)

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Justifying Playable SPD

 

A bit off topic, but I always think of this when SPD levels get thrown about.

 

What SPD would The Flash get? Considering he moves at light speed and all.

 

That's a function of his rate of movement, not his SPD (though his SPD would be ridiculous since his reflexes are superhuman as well).

[Lucius]

Re: Justifying Playable SPD

 

I usually justify characteristics to the left.

Leftmost column for the characteristic value, second column for the abbreviated characteristic, third column for the cost.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary notes that, more seriously, Lucius Alexander wasn't going to make a lame joke this time except that BNakagawa made his point for him.

 

The real thing that makes a 'super' SPD illogical is movement.

 

If you think about it, there are plenty of normals that can take 5 actions in 12 seconds. Most trained combatants can throw 5 or more attacks, shoot 5 or more targets in 12 seconds or less.

 

What these people can't do is run 250% faster than others.

 

If you don't want your combat-effective 'normal' SPD character to also be faster than Olympian sprinters, then either drop their movement or add some sort of limitation that prevents them from using all of their actions to move.

[jkwleisemann]

Re: Justifying Playable SPD

 

The problem that I always run into with SPD is what is *considered* a playable speed.

 

I run a brick character in one of my games. I've been told that my Speed of 4, 18 Dex, and 4 HTH Combat Levels is dangerously low.

 

5 shouldn't be the minimum speed, it should be the maximum for anybody but a martial artist or speedster.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Justifying Playable SPD

 

The problem that I always run into with SPD is what is *considered* a playable speed.

 

I run a brick character in one of my games. I've been told that my Speed of 4, 18 Dex, and 4 HTH Combat Levels is dangerously low.

 

5 shouldn't be the minimum speed, it should be the maximum for anybody but a martial artist or speedster.

 

I like you manage to condemn others for forcing a Speed and then go around and do the same in one post.

 

Nice.

 

In SOME games 5 could be considered a maximum for anyone but certain archetypes. In SOME games 5 could be considered the minimum speed for Characters to play at. In SOME games you should be able to work easily with a wide range. In SOME games it makes more sense for the Speeds to be clustered.

 

5 Is a Speed, not the minimum, not the maximum. Just one option. It may or may not be appropriate for any given game for it to be the max, min or middle of the ranges.

 

I play in one campaign where 3 of 4 Characters are SPD5, and one SPD8. "Speedsters" tend to start at 6+

Another campaign where you aren't even in the same league as "Speedsters" until you're 7+.

And one ended campaign where "Speedsters" were in the 9-12 Range (one of the PCs was a Speed 12).

[Bloodstone]

Re: Justifying Playable SPD

 

mark waid reduced wally's topspeed to supersonic sinc he considers[ed]lightspeed the maximum attainable speed...

 

This has LONG since been undone.

[Utech]

Re: Justifying Playable SPD

 

I think the OP is correct in associating Speed with play time. While this is not a problem for everyone, it clearly could be a problem for many.

 

Example:

Character A has a Speed of 3

Character B has a Speed of 6

The GM spends twice as much time asking the player of Character B what they want to do to influence the story, and twice as much time in resolution.

The player of Character A might well feel bored, jealous, frustrated, put upon, or any number of non-fun things.

 

If this is a problem, I'd recommend giving all characters the same Speed. You can then simulate characters who are supposed to be faster using a bunch of the other tools in the toolkit...

• Sweep, Rapid Fire, MPA, AOE, etc. to simulate characters who attack more often (martial artists, gun masters, etc.)
  
• high movement in the form of Running, Flight, Teleport, Stretching, etc. to simulte characters who cover more ground than normal people (speedsters)
  

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Justifying Playable SPD

 

To me, the problem is better looked at from the other side. In most Champions games (certainly in the published characters), superhuman attributes in DEX, SPD and CON are almost a prerequisite of being a Super.

 

How many characters have a SPD of 4 or less, or a DEX or CON of 20 or less? Very few, in my experience. If you want "normal human" to be a more common level of DEX and Speed, try taking every published character and dropping his DEX by 9 or 10 and his SPD by 2. What happens?

 

- that "slow Brick" at 18 DEX, 4 SPD now has 8 DEX (human average) and 2 SPD.

 

- that "typical EP" with 23 DEX and 5 SPD now has 14 DEX and 3 SPD (high normal)

 

- that "Martial Artist" with 30 DEX and 6 SPD now has 20 DEX and 4 SPD (peak human - isn't that how we typically describe them?)

 

- that "Speedster" with his 35 DEX and 8 SPD now has a 26 DEX and 6 SPD (still amazingly fast compared to his peers).

 

What happens in game? Everyone saves 38 - 40 points previously spend on DEX and SPD. Everyone spends less END per turn, so can save some points on END/REC/Reduced END. Supers are closer to normal humans, so agents can hit many of them a bit more regularly (kinda like they do in the comics...). Compared to one another, they have the same CV spread - the 8 DEX Brick finds it just as hard to hit the 26 DEX MA as he does if they have 18 and 35 DEX respectively.

 

And Supers whose schtick doesn't include superhuman reflexes don't have stats that implu superhuman reflexes.

[jkwleisemann]

Re: Justifying Playable SPD

 

I like you manage to condemn others for forcing a Speed and then go around and do the same in one post.

 

Nice.

 

In SOME games 5 could be considered a maximum for anyone but certain archetypes. In SOME games 5 could be considered the minimum speed for Characters to play at. In SOME games you should be able to work easily with a wide range. In SOME games it makes more sense for the Speeds to be clustered.

 

5 Is a Speed, not the minimum, not the maximum. Just one option. It may or may not be appropriate for any given game for it to be the max, min or middle of the ranges.

 

I play in one campaign where 3 of 4 Characters are SPD5, and one SPD8. "Speedsters" tend to start at 6+

Another campaign where you aren't even in the same league as "Speedsters" until you're 7+.

And one ended campaign where "Speedsters" were in the 9-12 Range (one of the PCs was a Speed 12).

For reference, I don't force those limits in any of my campaigns, it's a matter of personal preference.

 

Dex and SPD inflation has been something that I've seen a lot of people complaining about, not just myself. It's not the fact that the GM thinks he needs to force a stat that's worthy of condemnation - it's the 'feature creep' that's worked into the game itself that makes a 5 speed (greater than NCM, remember) the functional minimum to cope with everybody else. It induces less variability in the characters, and ultimately makes SPD less useful. Why don't you have to determine your Speed in a d20 game? Because everybody gets the same number of actions a round (for the most part).

 

When the SPD range condenses from, say, 2-8 to, say, 5-8, why should the Speedster have to throw 50 points into his Speed when he's only getting a fraction of the benefit he "should" be?

 

Cranking that minimum up higher and higher also forces unusual effects onto characters who, by all rights, shouldn't have reflexes that high. Ogre shouldn't be practically as fast as Defender - Ogre's entire gimmick is that he's the big slow guy.

 

And, for reference, my low SPD hasn't actually ended up hurting my character all that much, I don't think. She doesn't get to go as often, but she does her best to make it worthwhile when she *does* go, and does a pretty good job of it. Also, Bricks don't have to abort nearly as many phases to dodge as the speedster does....

[lapsedgamer]

Re: Justifying Playable SPD

 

The real thing that makes a 'super' SPD illogical is movement.

 

If you think about it, there are plenty of normals that can take 5 actions in 12 seconds. Most trained combatants can throw 5 or more attacks, shoot 5 or more targets in 12 seconds or less.

 

What these people can't do is run 250% faster than others.

 

If you don't want your combat-effective 'normal' SPD character to also be faster than Olympian sprinters, then either drop their movement or add some sort of limitation that prevents them from using all of their actions to move.

 

That differential is in the amount of extra inches of movement the Olympian buys, not in his/her SPD stat.

 

Whatever it takes to make him "the fastest man alive" in that campaign.

 

(See the last link in my sig below for an example of Flash built with a 6 SPD where all other JLA members have a 4 SPD)

 

Exactly. In a standard CU setting, He is somewhere between 9 and 12. I would be tempted to peg it at 10. The only thing that gives me pause is that there is a published character out there with a 12 SPD.

 

The problem that I always run into with SPD is what is *considered* a playable speed.

 

I run a brick character in one of my games. I've been told that my Speed of 4, 18 Dex, and 4 HTH Combat Levels is dangerously low.

 

5 shouldn't be the minimum speed, it should be the maximum for anybody but a martial artist or speedster.

 

This is in keeping with the standard CU setting, and by extension most campaigns.

 

To me, the problem is better looked at from the other side. In most Champions games (certainly in the published characters), superhuman attributes in DEX, SPD and CON are almost a prerequisite of being a Super.

 

How many characters have a SPD of 4 or less, or a DEX or CON of 20 or less? Very few, in my experience. If you want "normal human" to be a more common level of DEX and Speed, try taking every published character and dropping his DEX by 9 or 10 and his SPD by 2. What happens?

 

- that "slow Brick" at 18 DEX, 4 SPD now has 8 DEX (human average) and 2 SPD.

 

- that "typical EP" with 23 DEX and 5 SPD now has 14 DEX and 3 SPD (high normal)

 

- that "Martial Artist" with 30 DEX and 6 SPD now has 20 DEX and 4 SPD (peak human - isn't that how we typically describe them?)

 

- that "Speedster" with his 35 DEX and 8 SPD now has a 26 DEX and 6 SPD (still amazingly fast compared to his peers).

 

What happens in game? Everyone saves 38 - 40 points previously spend on DEX and SPD. Everyone spends less END per turn, so can save some points on END/REC/Reduced END. Supers are closer to normal humans, so agents can hit many of them a bit more regularly (kinda like they do in the comics...). Compared to one another, they have the same CV spread - the 8 DEX Brick finds it just as hard to hit the 26 DEX MA as he does if they have 18 and 35 DEX respectively.

 

And Supers whose schtick doesn't include superhuman reflexes don't have stats that implu superhuman reflexes.

 

That is a nice way to look at it, and it would work well in a self-contained campaign. However, it would annoy me to have to change any published characters I was going to use in the game. I tend to try to emulate the standard CU setting and the pregenerated characters published for it in my builds, so I don't have to worry about that.

 

Of course, I won't go on again about the difference between Steve Long's write ups and Darren Watts' again. We have beat that long dead horse in previous threads.

[Psylint]

Re: Justifying Playable SPD

 

Ice9,

 

The problem you are describing seems to be "Speed creep." If the average individual who's not just a placeholder is Speed 5, then a normal person at Speed 2 is pathetically slow.

 

Recently, I've been working on campaign guidelines where characters that you describe, individuals with one or at most few truly supernatural characteristics or qualities. (Particularly in light of the 6e supposedly getting rid of figured characteristics).

 

Suppose instead of an average speed of 5, which has been common in many superhero campaigns, I proposed a new descriptive system:

 

1. Speed 2: Normal folks without special training.

2. Speed 3: Trained individuals accustomed to making important decisions very quickly, e.g. police officers, fire fighters, amateur boxers, ER surgeons, etc.

3. Speed 4: Highly trained and naturally gifted individuals, martial artists, professional basketball players/boxers/Formula 1 racers, demonstration shootists, etc.

4. Speed 5: Superhuman or preternatural entities e.g. super speedsters, super computers.

5. Speed 6: Absolute cap.

 

Under this system, the average speed tends to be closer to 3 than 4 which makes playing a lower speed character more tolerable. In addition, it makes Recovery, time delays on drains/aids/etc more relevant (as things tend to last longer than 1 Turn). It also, in my opinion, protects schtick fairly well. The Speedster at 6 is 3x faster than normal humans, 2x fast as almost anyone else, and still has a 50% advantage over the highest trained people on the planet.

 

In order to "make up" the combat potential to address BNakagawa's idea that "Most trained combatants can throw 5 or more attacks, shoot 5 or more targets in 12 seconds or less" I say rapid fire/sweep + skill levels + Rapid Attack (melee and/or ranged as appropriate).

 

Peace

[Kenn]

Re: Justifying Playable SPD

 

Of course' date=' I won't go on again about the difference between Steve Long's write ups and Darren Watts' again. We have beat that long dead horse in previous threads.[/quote']

 

I missed them, and I'm curious. Can you point some of those out?

 

 

For a long time, until the mid-to-late 90s, I tried to keep to the typical published CU speeds, which is odd since I don't use the CU. Then when the DEX-SPD inflation problem started getting bad, I talked to myt players and we installed SPD limits. Everyone but the lowest SPD characters dropped back 1 SPD and 2 or 3 pts. of DEX. Our big speedster dropped from 12 SPD to 8.

 

Your milleage may vary, but it helped my campaign a lot.

[lapsedgamer]

Re: Justifying Playable SPD

 

I missed them, and I'm curious. Can you point some of those out?

 

 

For a long time, until the mid-to-late 90s, I tried to keep to the typical published CU speeds, which is odd since I don't use the CU. Then when the DEX-SPD inflation problem started getting bad, I talked to myt players and we installed SPD limits. Everyone but the lowest SPD characters dropped back 1 SPD and 2 or 3 pts. of DEX. Our big speedster dropped from 12 SPD to 8.

 

Your milleage may vary, but it helped my campaign a lot.

 

Others may disgree, but I find the Mr. Long centers on 23 DEX, 5 SPD. Mr Watts is more conservative in the area, centering on 20 DEX, 5 SPD, with a lot more 4 SPD supers in the mix. Long's write-ups seem to be more in keeping with the standard CU stuff from the early 5E books. Mr. Watts has his own style, which is still very good. Don't get me wrong, but you can really see this in Champions Worldwide and CU2. I tend towrd Mr. Long's way for reasons stated above.