A Storeowner's First Impression

[bigbywolfe]

Re: A Storeowner's First Impression

 

Where does one get a "pregenerated 4E adventure"? Is it part of the PHB? Do they cost money? Are they free resources?

 

I still think your comparison is faulty at best...

[Fedifensor]

Re: A Storeowner's First Impression

 

Where does one get a "pregenerated 4E adventure"? Is it part of the PHB? Do they cost money? Are they free resources?

Living Forgotten Realms. The RPGA is free to join, and you can download their free adventures.

 

 

It's important to recognize that there are multiple issues here - cost of rules, rulebook size, completeness, and ease of use, which I'll discuss below.

 

To be honest, cost doesn't bug me. I have enough disposable income that the difference between $50, $100, or $200 for a rules system isn't going to break the bank.

 

Rulebook size is a bigger issue - this is mitigated somewhat by PDFs, but I prefer a physical book for things I refer to frequently in the game. You need both 6E1 and 6E2 at the game table, which is a lot of rules to carry around.

 

Completeness - well, I don't think anyone can complain that 6E isn't comprehensive enough to handle just about anything you can throw at it.

 

Finally, we have ease of use - and that's where 6E has a problem. It's just not easy for the new player or GM. 6E doesn't have a sample adventure to show a new GM how things are put together. Really, you need to add a genre book to the mix before the new GM has enough information to put together a campaign without assistance. Even the player needs that genre book, as you only have one example character per genre in the core rules.

[Balabanto]

Re: A Storeowner's First Impression

 

I've played RPGA adventures. They don't handle creativity well.

[IKerensky]

Re: A Storeowner's First Impression

 

As a newbie I can tell you that the Basic Rulebook isn't enough to start with. Sure there is plenty of things in it (perhaps too much in fact) but it is just a downsize of the full rules.. in lenght and example and the removal of some powers. There is not enough things in it to create a campaign without massive effort and NO INITIATION SCENARIO.

 

Also there are plenty of holes : like the weapons being cut/paste from the full rules wich make the shotgun cost differently for the same game effect (weird), or the Area of effect: Beam wich mean a weapon can hit anything on a line from 0 range to his maximum range targeting a 3 DCV (ground?) ?

 

Character generation take far too much book space, gamemastering isn't really explained, neither is explained what is a RPG and how you have to conduct a campaign... 90 pages on 130 are about character creation, 20 about combat... that doesnt leave a lot of space for usefull information about anything else...

 

As it is Basic Rulebook is just a costly preview of full rules... not useless, but a bit redundant and definitely not a starter book.

[Lucius]

Re: A Storeowner's First Impression

 

Character generation take far too much book space, gamemastering isn't really explained, neither is explained what is a RPG and how you have to conduct a campaign... .

 

A flaw I pointed out in the last version; I practically begged Mr. Long to include a short "What Role Playing is" section in this one.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The gleeful palindromedary still claims everyone's characters

[Doc Democracy]

Re: A Storeowner's First Impression

 

As a newbie I can tell you that the Basic Rulebook isn't enough to start with. Sure there is plenty of things in it (perhaps too much in fact) but it is just a downsize of the full rules.. in lenght and example and the removal of some powers. There is not enough things in it to create a campaign without massive effort and NO INITIATION SCENARIO.

 

Hmm. I think that there is some mileage in that. A cut down generic system is by definition incomplete. A subset of the rules presented as a way to run a particular game is more complete.

 

Would there be a place for something like a short game built by HERO - Champions or Justice Inc that would give a subset of the rules that would allow you to play in a particular genre that comes with a starter adventure. A taster for people to get them playing something before they see the value in being able to do other things with the full ruleset.

 

HERO will never provide you with a campaign out of the box - you can buy the campaign stuff but the rules themselves need work by the GM - that is part of the system design...

[BlackSword]

Re: A Storeowner's First Impression

 

Would there be a place for something like a short game built by HERO - Champions or Justice Inc that would give a subset of the rules that would allow you to play in a particular genre that comes with a starter adventure. A taster for people to get them playing something before they see the value in being able to do other things with the full ruleset.

I believe both PS238 and Lucha Libre have the rules included in the book so that with only a single book someone could start playing that setting. No idea how well either did in sales, so I don't know if there is a market for it.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: A Storeowner's First Impression

 

A flaw I pointed out in the last version; I practically begged Mr. Long to include a short "What Role Playing is" section in this one.

 

The counterargument is that Hero doesn't tend to be visible to nongamers in the first place, so purchasers will generally have an idea of what a role playing game is. I'm not sold that this means the section should be excluded, but it is a rational basis for considering it low or no value. Is the typical Newbie likely to be new to RPG's entirely, or just to the Hero System? How does a customer with no exposure to RPG's in general become exposed to Hero in particular? It's not marketed through bookstores, to my knowledge. If it's only distributed through gaming channels, how does a person unfamiliar with RPG's in general come in contact with it?

 

That said, I don't think a brief explanation would necessarily be a waste of space, but I see it more useful in explaining Hero's approach to RPG's (with an expectation the reader has some familiarity with RPG's) rather than a "What is an RPG?" essay.

[IKerensky]

Re: A Storeowner's First Impression

 

Yep, I was more implying on information about what it is to gamemaster Hero than general RPG.

 

Right now the only information we got is : Here this is a tool box, if you have question go to the website and you will get plenty of unofficial answer on how to use what.

 

For an universal system I found it weird not to have guideline on creating things... just examples (and not many of living things). You are basically enforced to buy a campaign setting to get any closer information on how to play the game, and even then they are outdated (old edition) and not so complete (no introductory scenario, no real step by step example about creating NPCs, monsters, tools...).

 

Also one of the weirdest thing is that, for a system supposed to be designed for effect, how complicate it is to design the simplest effect. Even something like a Torchlight is a multipower and require nearly a full page of explanation. Also Monsters Stats are far too complete, usually RPG can describe opposition in a few stats lines, here there is so many thing to device before starting that this is overwhelming...

 

The tentation to use standard/generic rating rather than spent too much time compute exact things is strong.

 

In fact, the more I think about Hero, the less I think it is a rules heavy, complicated games. The rules are so complicated, intricated and subject to GM ruling/balancing/choice that I think that in fine, there is no other rule than the GM hunch on what should and could work and how.

 

Aren't anyone even remotely shocked that a player CANT create a character only by using the rulesbook without having to have all his decisions double checked by the gamemaster ? ( amount of stats, DC level, OCV/DCV/SPEED check, X factor, choice of powers, limitation avaliable or not... ). Usually in a game with rules, the only thing that need to be checked is the honor system on the rolls, the rules are here as guidelines and safeguards, here the rules are speedbumps and X-crossing... weird...

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: A Storeowner's First Impression

 

Aren't anyone even remotely shocked that a player CANT create a character only by using the rulesbook without having to have all his decisions double checked by the gamemaster ?

 

Speaking only for myself..... no. "With great power comes great responsibility." The HERO System is powerful, and it can be used to create pretty much anything you can imagine, including game breaking constructs. The system rightly leaves it up to the GM whether to allow any particular construct.

 

In the latter days of 4th edition, I used to have a motto ensconced in my house rules document. Something to the effect of, I never want to be in the position of telling a player no because the system doesn't allow it. In the way the system has developed since, it would seem that Steve Long agrees with me, though I've never consciously brought it to his attention.

 

It's perfectly possible within the rules for a character to build a Power that opens up an Earth-sized portal to the Sun, and allows the Earth to move through it and be destroyed (in fact, it could be done with a ridiculously small amount of Active Points). Some groups might want to tell stories about characters with that kind of power. Should the system be the one to tell you that you can't do that? I say no. If you're running a game in which characters can't do that, it's easy, just disallow that kind of build.

[teh bunneh]

Re: A Storeowner's First Impression

 

(no introductory scenario' date=' no real step by step example about creating NPCs, monsters, tools...). [/quote']

 

I think it's safe to say that there's no introductory scenario because... well, what would the scenario be? A superhero scenario? A fantasy dungeon crawl? A martial-arts epic? An old-west showdown? A 1930s pulp adventure? And what if the scenario was one of these, and I wanted to use the system to create a Victorian-age detective mystery? How would that scenario be of any use to me?

 

Books like PS238 and Lucha Libre Hero have the basic rules packed in along with a sourcebook (which I think is a fantastic idea!). If you want more things like that, I recommend voting with your wallet, and maybe we'll see more books like that in the future.

[torchwolf]

Re: A Storeowner's First Impression

 

I think it's safe to say that there's no introductory scenario because... well, what would the scenario be? A superhero scenario? A fantasy dungeon crawl? A martial-arts epic? An old-west showdown? A 1930s pulp adventure? And what if the scenario was one of these, and I wanted to use the system to create a Victorian-age detective mystery? How would that scenario be of any use to me?

 

Books like PS238 and Lucha Libre Hero have the basic rules packed in along with a sourcebook (which I think is a fantastic idea!). If you want more things like that, I recommend voting with your wallet, and maybe we'll see more books like that in the future.

 

Yes, the books would be even more accused of being too long if intro scenarios were included.

 

For introductory scenario purposes, this thread: Beginner suggestion for a free download

 

Sean Waters is probably working on this, like he said, and there are probably several others who have ideas for this (myself included as soon as I can find the time). As has been noted in this discussion, free stuff will probably be partly produced by Hero fans on these forums.

 

Other than that, the Hero Store has several very cheap pdfs covering mainly:

 

• Pulp Hero (NOTE: Almost all of the Pulp Hero pdfs (all of the Hero Plus ones) are compiled and reprinted together in Thrilling Hero Adventures, also available in pdf)
  
• Star Hero/Pulp Hero (NOTE: These are the Hero Plus pdfs)
  
• Star Hero
  
• Fantasy Hero
  
• Dark Champions: The Animated Series
  
• Champions (NOTE: these are a bit longer and not quite as cheap)
  
• many Digital Hero issues contain some scenario material for different genres
  

Those are for Hero System 5th Edition Revised, true, but minimal conversion fuss should be necessary.

 

Other than this, there are already a few adventures published for 6E available through the Hero Store and elsewhere, though not yet for every genre. Many genres are very narrow and might not have commercial adventures published for them for quite some time.

 

Also, on these boards, there are many threads dedicated to converting adventures from other systems, and several members of these boards also have their own sites with original material for free, including more extensive conversion advice.

 

If all of this does not constitute support for beginning players, I don't know what does.

[tesuji]

Re: A Storeowner's First Impression

 

an interesting set of fact to consider would be to compare sles of

 

the bbb in its multiple printings including hero system rulebook - the last versions with cover art. art which i really enjoyed btw

 

sales of hero 5 and 5er

 

hero 6e1 and 6e2.

 

comparing the sales of the last art cover edition vs the two editions with no art might be informative.

[dmjalund]

Re: A Storeowner's First Impression

 

if the yellow on blue color scheme is so good? why is Mr Long's icon still green on black?

[ghost-angel]

Re: A Storeowner's First Impression

 

or the Area of effect: Beam wich mean a weapon can hit anything on a line from 0 range to his maximum range targeting a 3 DCV (ground?) ?

 

Generic Space - Modified For Range.

 

Formerly known as "Targeting a Hex" - you're aiming for a non-moving point, not a target in and of itself. Generic spaces in reality tend not to be moving about too much, so the DCV is pretty low (3); and the further you are the harder it is to get that specific spot (Ranged Modifiers).

[ghost-angel]

Re: A Storeowner's First Impression

 

Aren't anyone even remotely shocked that a player CANT create a character only by using the rulesbook without having to have all his decisions double checked by the gamemaster ? ( amount of stats' date=' DC level, OCV/DCV/SPEED check, X factor, choice of powers, limitation avaliable or not... ). Usually in a game with rules, the only thing that need to be checked is the honor system on the rolls, the rules are here as guidelines and safeguards, here the rules are speedbumps and X-crossing... weird...[/quote']

 

Because my game isn't your game, isn't Chris Goodwin's game isn't Teh_Bunneh's game isn't anyone else's game in existence.

 

It's on purpose, completely and totally. You cannot pick up the rules, make a character and start playing. There's nothing to Start Playing until all the decisions about campaign genre, style, levels, tone, benchmarks, and themes are put into place.

 

That's the point of a Generic System.

[gojira]

Re: A Storeowner's First Impression

 

It's on purpose' date=' completely and totally. You cannot pick up the rules, make a character and start playing. There's nothing to Start Playing until all the decisions about campaign genre, style, levels, tone, benchmarks, and themes are put into place.[/quote']

 

I see his point, however. A simpler (shorter) set of rules and some additional examples might make a difference. Dispensing the sort of advice we are giving out now in these forums to at least three new folks could be a function of the basic rules. And it might indeed help some folks.

 

Note I don't have 6e myself yet, so I'm speculating here, a lot. But I do see his point.

[Vondy]

Re: A Storeowner's First Impression

 

I see his point, however. A simpler (shorter) set of rules and some additional examples might make a difference. Dispensing the sort of advice we are giving out now in these forums to at least three new folks could be a function of the basic rules. And it might indeed help some folks.

 

Note I don't have 6e myself yet, so I'm speculating here, a lot. But I do see his point.

 

In my experience, unless you are playing with seasoned hero vets, new players often look at the examples in the book, build to them without asking about genre, style, levels, tone, benchmarks, and themes, and then, when you tell them the character they built will need a serious edit, complain and tell you you're doing it wrong. Despite the fact that you built the game you're running from the ground up. Despite the fact that they have 20 hours in to your 20 years. I'd rather they consulted, looked at MY EXAMPLES, and then built their character.

[IKerensky]

Re: A Storeowner's First Impression

 

I'd rather they consulted' date=' looked at MY EXAMPLES, and then built their character.[/quote']

 

I understand what you are saying, afterall , as a GM I like to have the final word on character generation. The thing that isn't normal is that this make the examples in the rulesbook useless as you said it : it is your word as a GM that count, your experience and your choice.

 

That is what I am saying : All thoses rules and examples are for NOTHING, in the end it all depends on peculiar Gamemaster decision. When there is 5 or 10 way to do something then there is no way to do something. When each gamemaster playing the same system use it in a different way then there is NO SYSTEM.

 

Because it fail to be unified (sorry I said the bad word), all the heavy rulebook is for nothing, you can still add and refine hundreth more pages of rules it wont make a system nor a rulebook, it is a collection of idea on how to play a generic roleplaying game but NOT a generic system.

 

For me HERO is a failure at being a generic system, it is a toolbox to create specific roleplaying game, not a generic system to play different game settings. If you cant directly port a character from one setting to another, why did you call it generic ? If you dont use the same rules for the same things dependent on the setting you play you dont play the same game...

[Balabanto]

Re: A Storeowner's First Impression

 

Speaking only for myself..... no. "With great power comes great responsibility." The HERO System is powerful, and it can be used to create pretty much anything you can imagine, including game breaking constructs. The system rightly leaves it up to the GM whether to allow any particular construct.

 

In the latter days of 4th edition, I used to have a motto ensconced in my house rules document. Something to the effect of, I never want to be in the position of telling a player no because the system doesn't allow it. In the way the system has developed since, it would seem that Steve Long agrees with me, though I've never consciously brought it to his attention.

 

It's perfectly possible within the rules for a character to build a Power that opens up an Earth-sized portal to the Sun, and allows the Earth to move through it and be destroyed (in fact, it could be done with a ridiculously small amount of Active Points). Some groups might want to tell stories about characters with that kind of power. Should the system be the one to tell you that you can't do that? I say no. If you're running a game in which characters can't do that, it's easy, just disallow that kind of build.

 

I totally disagree with you. The goal of rules design should be to create a flawless system that runs A) Smoothly Quickly and C) Fairly.

 

There are a fair number of things in Hero System that I consider far too permissive and I have to spend lots of time figuring out ways around to rebalance it. The way they turned Transfer into Drain followed by Aid is overcomplicated, clunky, and difficult to manage.

 

For the record, the difference between two die rolls and three die rolls adds two minutes to every action where a player uses that combination of abilities. And that's just that little piece.

 

So I want a system that is not about "Saying no because I don't like the build." I want it to be obvious that certain builds are A) Wrong Unfair to others and C) Rude. Nothing is worse than going through twelve weeks of plot buildup than having someone say "Well, I just activate power X, and rules as written, it does this." And everything collapses like a house of cards because of mathematics. So much for the fun of the other four to five players at your table.

 

Game Systems need to be policed by designers so that things like this don't happen. Hero's biggest strength is it's versatility and the best combat system out there. That's why I love it, that's why I play it. Hero's biggest weakness is that it isn't policed enough by both it's designers and it's GMs. I do my best, but I have 50 pages of house rules. That's a lot of house rules. And that's to run a pretty basic superhero game.

 

So before you think permissiveness is always the answer, you might want to think again.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: A Storeowner's First Impression

 

Hmmm. What I loved about Runequest when I first looked at it in the late 70s early 80s was the way it walked me through the building of a character. I could see the desicions being considered and made and how I might do things differently.

 

I think that we need a guide so that GMs and Players can see the process by which a HERO game is made using the rules - they can see what the considerations are and how that affec ts the game they are likely to play. It should also point out the things they need to think about.

 

For GMs it is a guide to how to go about it, for players it is insight into why their GM may disallow stuff that is in the rulebook.

 

Doc

[Vondy]

Re: A Storeowner's First Impression

 

I understand what you are saying, afterall , as a GM I like to have the final word on character generation. The thing that isn't normal is that this make the examples in the rulesbook useless as you said it : it is your word as a GM that count, your experience and your choice.

 

That is what I am saying : All thoses rules and examples are for NOTHING, in the end it all depends on peculiar Gamemaster decision. When there is 5 or 10 way to do something then there is no way to do something. When each gamemaster playing the same system use it in a different way then there is NO SYSTEM.

 

Because it fail to be unified (sorry I said the bad word), all the heavy rulebook is for nothing, you can still add and refine hundreth more pages of rules it wont make a system nor a rulebook, it is a collection of idea on how to play a generic roleplaying game but NOT a generic system.

 

For me HERO is a failure at being a generic system, it is a toolbox to create specific roleplaying game, not a generic system to play different game settings. If you cant directly port a character from one setting to another, why did you call it generic ? If you dont use the same rules for the same things dependent on the setting you play you dont play the same game...

 

We want different things from the system. We therefore disagree. There is, as a result, nothing for us to discuss.

[mkultra]

Re: A Storeowner's First Impression

 

It should be pointed out that nowhere on the cover does it say "Generic." Who told you that Hero was a generic RPG?

[ghost-angel]

Re: A Storeowner's First Impression

 

There are two schools of thought on the idea of a Universal (or Generic, though as mkultra pointed out the cover of the book never mentions the word) System.

 

1) That the system is generic, in that it can be applied across multiple genres with a certain degree of evenness, it likely scales well, and that any two given games work pretty much the same. Here, you can just make a character and walk up to a table using the System and be assured your character Mechanically will fit in almost seamlessly (if not completely seamlessly). A gun in one game will be the same as a gun in another game from a pure Mechanics issue. This side mat actually be unsatisfied with the idea that a single idea can be created multiple ways Mechanically; a Taser is built one way to do one specific set of things for example, and you can almost always (if not always) have that Taser work the same in any two given games.

 

That the system is Universal, in that it can be used to create any given style of game; and that no two games may even be compatible due to expectations of how aspects are created Mechanically. You may not be able to simply create a Character and walk up to a table using the System and be able to play at all. In fact, your Character in this scenario may be based on completely incorrect assumptions and actually "be wrong" for That Game (And That Game Only). A Taser here may be built using one Mechanical Method in one game and work perfectly well, and be built in a completely Mechanically different way in a second game and work perfectly well; but the catch is you will not be able to switch builds and have the taster's work Mechanically in the game for which they were not built.

 

Under 5th Edition the rulebook said along the side of the Front Cover: The Ultimate Gamer's Toolkit. Which brings with it the implication of building something. It's my belief this philosophy was taken even further with 6th Edition (though the words "Ultimate Gamer's Toolkit" are nowhere on the covers) and the Actual Intent behind the Hero System is Option .

 

It's designed to create the Game you want to play. And that Game may not fit Mechanically with the Game that guy over there wants to play. Or that I want to play. In fact, it shouldn't be assumed that any two given games are in any way compatible; and that's completely without altering the Base Mechanics of the system. I could give a number of examples, but they won't add anything to this post.

 

Suffice to say, different people are expecting different things from what the Hero System is, from what it advertises itself as, and from what they have been told about it. And thus, we have discussions like this one where someone says "The Hero System is doing it wrong" is short. Actually what's going on is the Hero System isn't doing it how you want it done; which isn't wrong, just different.

 

Happy Gaming. I won't be responding to this or any future posts on this topic, just stating my thoughts on it and going off to do some writing and editing.

[Guest steamteck]

Re: A Storeowner's First Impression

 

For me HERO is a failure at being a generic system, it is a toolbox to create specific roleplaying game, not a generic system to play different game settings. If you cant directly port a character from one setting to another, why did you call it generic ? If you dont use the same rules for the same things dependent on the setting you play you dont play the same game...

 

Experiences vary, I've run a multiverse campaign for years ( actually decades and several editions of HERO) where the characters freely move between multiple Fantasy, space opera , supers and horror worlds with no problems.