Villains Campaign

[tomd1969]

Okay, I'm at my wit's end. I'm tired of amoral, psychopathic "anti-heroes" ruining my enjoyment of a good Champions campaign. I'm beginning to think that we need to switch gears and run a full-fledged Villains campaign. Other than the immorality of it (which I'm finding myself struggle with, frankly), what other pitfalls do I need to look for?

 

Additionally, I'm looking for some good adventure ideas. I have a couple:

 

• The villain team is approached by a security guard of a bank, looking for a payday. He tells the villain group that he can get them into the bank, and practically give them the keys to the bank. Is he on the level, or is this a trap that the villains are walking into?
  
• Through one of the gang's heists assaulting a hero base, they discover details of the local VIPER Nest, complete with maps, schematics, security details, and an inventory listing that includes some pretty hefty hardware--tanks, RPGs, blasters, and other weaponry. What does the villain group do with the information? If they give the information over, they might be able to forge an alliance; but if they use it to assault the Nest, they might get some nifty hardware.
  

 

Any other ideas?

[Rapier]

Re: Villains Campaign

 

Among other things, it sounds like y'all need to sit down and discuss what it is you are looking for in a game.

 

The main problem with playing a villain team is...well...they're villains. There is nothing wrong, in theory, with playing a villain game, but to truly do the genre justice there has to be the obligatory backstabbery at the end. This tends to not go over very well among the players as someone always ends up on the short end of the stick.

 

What about the 'anti-hero' is ruining the game? More importantly, how are you defining 'anti-hero?'

[tomd1969]

Re: Villains Campaign

 

Among other things' date=' it sounds like y'all need to sit down and discuss what it is you are looking for in a game.[/quote']

 

I may need to excuse myself from the game. The issue is that this is being GMed by a good friend, and I don't want to offend, insult him, or "hurt his feelings." There are a lot of things going on behind the scenes: one player simply refuses to play a character with anything resembling a heroic motivation; another just likes to play vigilantes who become judge, jury and executioner.

 

So, since they don't want to play anything I call a "hero," than why not just go whole hog and play villains? We're almost halfway there, anyway.

 

The main problem with playing a villain team is...well...they're villains. There is nothing wrong, in theory, with playing a villain game, but to truly do the genre justice there has to be the obligatory backstabbery at the end. This tends to not go over very well among the players as someone always ends up on the short end of the stick.

 

I won't go into details, since they wouldn't be suitable for this forum (and I don't want to get banned), but they're playing heroes so badly that I sometimes throw up a little bit in my mouth.

 

What about the 'anti-hero' is ruining the game? More importantly, how are you defining 'anti-hero?'

 

Here's how I'm defining anti-hero for the purposes of this discussion: Someone who is nominally a hero and fights on the side of the heroes, but his actions leave him indistinguishable from the villains. Think Belkar from Order of the Stick without the humor.

[Nothere]

Re: Villains Campaign

 

Well the main pitfall with a villian campain is focus. Unless they have someone behind the scenes, or a reason to work together they just might go all over the place. Take your bank example. Some want to do it, and don't care if the others don't. They'll just keep the money. Others decide to knock over a jewerly store instead. And one just for fun wants to trash a candy store. In a villanous campain with nothing to force them to work together, this works just fine. But it sucks for team unity.

[Checkmate]

Re: Villains Campaign

 

As has been said you REALLY need a reason to stay together. There should be an overall goal, something that everyone is working towards (think Magneto striving for a Mutant Supremacy or some such). I would also recommend that the leader of your group be an NPC that assigns missions.

 

Something else you may want to suggest is playing a Dark Champions game (which sounds like you're doing already). Have everyone make Vigilantes.

 

If you don't want to go that way, talk to your GM. Make the characters that take the law into their own hands villians. Put the Cops on them, make other heroes go after them. Imagine Superman showing up to take the Punnisher to jail.

[lemming]

Re: Villains Campaign

 

Focus is the difficult thing for villain games, since in my experience most players equate villains with anarchy. We did several villain games which did help a bit with burning out some people's non-heroic impulses, but not all. And some people will want to go all psycho with their villains which may make some people uncomfortable. It's one thing to knock over a liquor store, but another to make a sculpture out of the bodies. Probably some boundaries need to be established before the characters are made.

 

At this point, if I was running a villain game, I'd have a group working for a Viper cell. They'd have some freedom to operate, but the GM could always have orders come from above.

[Certified]

Re: Villains Campaign

 

I think Lemming hits one very key element to the villain game which is the pecking order. As a super hero sure there are other heroes far more powerful than you but rarely does that matter. With villains though this hierarchy , I think, should be tested and checked contently.

 

This doesn't necessarily mean they have to work for more powerful villains but say they slaughter a bus of old grannies on their way to bingo making human Carpaccio and leaving the mutilated bodies behind. Heroes are going ot take notice, maybe some new heroes come into town because of it and start bothering a much more powerful villain as a possible lead. Next the the players know their base has been overrun by zombies and fire bombed to ash, you know, as a warning. Villains don't have to play nice, especially with people who can't run to the police for protection.

[Cancer]

Re: Villains Campaign

 

You might consider a campaign where the core concept is one where aliens came in, wiped out all the superheroes, took over, and are establishing a totalitarian regime on Earth. The villains are the only supers left, because they've been in hiding. But an alien-tech totalitarian regime will squeeze the villains out too, and the villains already know that they've got no chance unless they cooperate.

 

This is the basis behind a Savage Worlds canned campaign whose name I cannot dredge up at the moment, but there's nothing wrong with stealing a campaign concept and making it your own.

 

EDIT: the adventure title is "Necessary Evil". Finally remembered it.

[StGrimblefig]

Re: Villains Campaign

 

One reason that you could use to keep a villain group together is self-preservation. Make sure there is a hero (or a team) in town that no one of them could defeat by themselves. Any time one of them wants to go off and knock over a bank alone, he gets caught and thrown in jail. They can argue and in-fight all they want, but they need each other.

 

If you want to be really twisted, make the heroes they must band together to defeat be their own "hero" team. Let them see how bad their actions are from the other side of the fence.

[Dead guy on tab]

Re: Villains Campaign

 

I once had an idea to run an adventure where the players were all the goofy villains (e.g. Ventriloquist, Toyman, etc.) facing off against a anti-hero Justice League. The premise was that the Legion of Doom had kidnapped and executed all the Justice Leagues's loved ones and the heroes lost it and executed the Legion of Doom. The players were the only villains left since they were beneath the Justice Leagues's notice. The players would have been charged with overthrowing the Justice League even though they were way outclassed.

 

Or you could just run a Suicide Squad/Liberty Project sort of campaign.

[Certified]

Re: Villains Campaign

 

Why do they have to work together all the time? This might be a chance to do some really creative tricks with the game. For example establishing that there is down time between each adventure encourage the players to plot and scheme alone without others resources. At the beginning of a session, assuming there's not a story already unfolding, they players may share or withhold information with the other players to try and accomplish their plans. This can get really fun if you can get then to start plotting against each other and trying to steal from one another in game or power plays.

 

So down time becomes when the villains work alone and game time is when there is something of a magnitude they are forced to work together, either by their own plotting or by GM driven story arc. In this style of game it would be important for the GM to do a lot of prep work to prepare for stories on the fly. Having things like a bank or two mapped out, a generic office building and some of the cities major heroes for starters.

[TheQuestionMan]

Re: Villains Campaign

 

Make sure they experience the difference between Superhero and Anti Hero.

 

A Superhero brings them to Justice, while the Anti-Hero is Judge, Jury, & Executioner.

 

Players usually hate their PC getting captured.

 

Players usually hate their PC getting Maimed or Killed.

 

If they become Powerful enough as Supervillains they may face the wrath or avarice of other Supervillains or Super Organizations.

 

 

But, definitely talk to the group. Revenge fantasy can be fun, but are often taken too far.

 

 

QM

[RexMundi]

Re: Villains Campaign

 

*Reads the first couple of posts*

 

I have to ask, if you don't care for the one guy's Anti-Hero (And I like a GOOD anti-hero, just not the ones out of the Liefieldian mold), why would you want to go one step further over the edge and try a villain campaign (most of which, end badly, though there is potential in a well run Viper game )?

 

~Rex

[GoldenAge]

Re: Villains Campaign

 

I run a GREAT villain game from time-to-time. Check out the NEMESIS thread in my sig below.

 

NEMESIS SQUADRON contains many of the aspects recommended in this thread. The universe is big, but they have their orders. They are all really bad guys, but their survivability is often dependent on their murdering, rapist bunk mate. In the end it kind of boils down to something of a nuclear standoff. In NEMESIS SQUADRON your probably going to die on the next mission... but your greatest threat is the guy that shares your bunk. Its amazing (and incredibly satisfying) how survivability usually boils down to roleplaying.

[Panpiper]

Re: Villains Campaign

 

Okay' date=' I'm at my wit's end. I'm tired of amoral, psychopathic "anti-heroes" ruining my enjoyment of a good Champions campaign.[/quote']

That sounds too much like surrender to me. If I found myself in your shoes, I would simply stop playing with that group. End of story. I have real issues with the 'people' who cannot muster it in themselves to even 'roleplay' being decent people.

 

Actually playing in a group whose game is to go out and rape and murder? No way in hell.

[RexMundi]

Re: Villains Campaign

 

Mental Transformation. Poof......Insta Code vs Killing, Total. Problem solved, though I could add a few more things like Psych Lim: Must say Please and Thank you, etc etc etc ......

 

~Rex

[Deadborder]

Re: Villains Campaign

 

Being honest, I think the real problem here is the people you're playing with. Putting them into a different setting won't change anything; all I can conceiveably see it doing is encouraging them to be more of tools then they are now. I've been in this situation myself; in the end, I figured the best hting to do was to simply leave the game. Certainly it sounds like what you're going through with them isn't worth the grief.

[Silbeg]

Re: Villains Campaign

 

While I have never actually run a villain-based campaign, I have run several convention games where the PCs were villains. There, it works, because they tend to have objectives, etc. They are allowed to use whatever tactics they wish, but even then, it is suggested to follow genre-trope and not go kill-happy.

 

The problem I see is that a villain based game would almost have to be either more open-ended than the typical superhero game, or much more rigid. Typically in a heroic game, the PCs are trying to foil the crimes perpetrated by the NPCs. While there may be a good number of options to their pursuits, it it all comes down to protecting the public in the end.

 

Villains will need motivation to stay together. It may be a mysterious benefactor (such as with GRAB), or there might be some creation-binding (like the Crowns of Krim), or a powerful leader (War Machine). Players will probably grow tired of being led around by an NPC leader, but this can be part of the solution.

 

If not being led by a powerful (or more knowledgeable) leader, the villain PCs will need to come up with crimes to perform on their own. If they have concrete goals, this might be the easiest, however, this isn't usually going to be the case. So, one night, they might decide to rob The First National Bank of XXX, through the use of stealth, and skills, and on the next, they may just decide to blast their way through Midtown Mall. This requires a much higher level of preparation on the GM's part, because the team has to be able to do whatever they need.

 

Perhaps the most important question comes about when the local heroes actually start getting involved. How often do they respond to the criminal's behavior? What do you do when villains (or heroes) are captured? What level of arms do the typical security guards and police carry, not to mention the possible MARS squads (or their equivalent).

 

Then, finally, in order to be a really convincing villains game, there has to be tension between the PCs. Who is going to help whom? Who pays for the weaponsmaster to reload his gun? Who is a mole for the superheroes? Or who is working double-time for the mafia/russians/terrorists?

 

I would definitely still try to keep with genre trope, such as no rampant killing, etc. Otherwise, you will definitely need to respond with equal force.

[Vulcan]

Re: Villains Campaign

 

Make the characters that take the law into their own hands villians. Put the Cops on them' date=' make other heroes go after them. Imagine Superman showing up to take the Punnisher to jail.[/quote']

 

One question that needs to be asked: what is the operating genre of he world? Superheroes spans a fair amount of ground, from the serious B&W of Golden age, the sillier B&W of Silver age, all the way to 'nearly indistinguishable shades of grey' Iron and Rusty Iron age. And if the world is operating in the 'nearly indistinguishable shades of grey' area, it is rather a bit unfair to expect the players to run Silver Age characters, with corresponding morality. That sort of world would punsih those characters absoultely mercilessly.

 

I know. My last GM did it. And he still wonders why I quit the game.

[Vulcan]

Re: Villains Campaign

 

I'd walk out. Possibly after slugging the GM for wasting my time in such spectacular fashion.

 

Why? Because if I want to play an antihero, it's because the world has been run as 'indistinguishable shades of grey.' For you to try and force a Silver Age attitude on my character that will only make him an easy target for the Iron Age badguys...

 

That's beyond 'railroad' and all the way to 'douchebag.'

 

I don't play Iron Age characters in a Silver Age world... and the converse holds true as well.

[kahuna's bro]

Re: Villains Campaign

 

well said vulcan ,but i think sluggingthe gm would have you liable for assault charges,just walk out peacefuly and don't make a scene

[Certified]

Re: Villains Campaign

 

well said vulcan ' date='but i think sluggingthe gm would have you liable for assault charges,just walk out peacefuly and don't make a scene[/quote']

 

So Georgia has these things on the books called Fighting Words, effectively a way to hit first and not be charged. I wonder if he could argue that that would be the gamer equivalent.

[Death_Jester]

Re: Villains Campaign

 

Something I could suggest is to have the players and characters have a bond before the game starts. First have the players set down Together and have they come up with concepts for their characters starting off with what jobs they do before getting their powers. For example John is a Business man and Sally is a real estate person ECT. Then have them make connections between the characters BEFORE getting any powers. I mean being a villain is hard to do alone too many pesky hero teams out there anymore.

 

Once again before they have any powers have them determine what kind of relationship they have. For example John wants gets word that Sally has a choice property that will become valuable in the near future. But someone has put in a bid for it first. Sally could help out John by losing the first bid and making sure that he got it.

 

Conversely Sally may need a loan for some reason and John could put some pressure on the bank that she is working with to make sure she gets that loan. This builds some connections and establishes some trust between characters, at least in the beginning.

 

Also something that works pretty well but takes a lot of work on the GMs part is to have a series of "agent" or even "normal" level adventures with the players before they get their powers. They could be dealing with petty mundane things that have an impact on their lives and lead up to the point where they get their powers.

 

Example

 

Session one

Group meets in some arbitrary way and gets to know one another. A broken elevator is a good way to do this or a charity event where they are forced to interact and chat a bit. Once the Crisis is over they at least have a feeling for each other.

 

Session two

Some of the group has a problem that the others in the group are uniquely capable of handling. Example the Business man has a traffic ticket out standing and the Police Officer can handle it but only if he can get something in return. Another example teacher could help out anyone's kid to get better grades but they need a lot of money for a spouse gambling habit or some other reason beyond their control. It has to be something quasi-illegal so that you set the mood for the game.

 

Session three

The players become aware of a unique opportunity to either get rich or obtain power (not in the super sense of the work but in a real world sense) but they need each other to pull it off. This starts the players to bond together for their own interests and starts the model of the scheming villains’ portion of your game.

 

Session four

Could be the heist or whatever was brought up in session three and or its fall out as things begin to become clear that what was taken has more meaning than the players suspect. Someone or something starts hunting “the whatever” and seems to know that the players had something to do with it.

 

Session Five

The players are in real trouble now and a need to either resolve the situation in order to get back to their loved ones (and they should have someone that can be threatened even if they do not take a DNPC). An opportunity comes to them in the shape of a mysterious benefactor willing to help facilitate a resolution but the players are lead into a trap.

 

Session Six

The players find themselves in the hands of a person/group/government/what-have-you that fakes the player’s deaths and keeps them as guinea pigs. The players are now forced to escape and become accustomed to their powers while trying to stay alive in a world that believes them to be dead.

 

The rest of your campaign is whatever you want to play with. Do you want the other bad guy come along to mess with the group or do the players destroy the bad guy and are now filling the power vacuum left? The sky is the limit for you.

 

Best wishes with your game I’d love to hear how it works out.

 

Peace Jester

[Ninja-Bear]

Re: Villains Campaign

 

So Georgia has these things on the books called Fighting Words' date=' effectively a way to hit first and not be charged. I wonder if he could argue that that would be the gamer equivalent.[/quote']

 

I've said this in another post, before you start slugging, you better reconsider. Japan struck first and look where it got them!

[casualplayer]

Re: Villains Campaign

 

I've ran a villains game before and it was a lot of fun. The leader was an amoral mentalist named Black Dragon, there was Bjorn, Son of Ymir who had the viking mindset of "if you wanted to keep it you should have held on tighter," an honorable samuraiko fulfilling her giri to a dishonorable lord, a demon with vaguely Venom-ish abilities and a rotating cast of others who got killed, left behind, sacrificed for the getaway, framed, etc.

 

On one adventure Black Dragon killed a hero, I think it was Amphibian from Champions of the North, and Polar Bear went ballistic and stalked him for the rest of the campaign. I had Harbinger of Justice infiltrate the team and nearly take them all out in an ambush. I had Menton politely "ask" them to embark on a suicide mission. I also invaded the Earth with an exterminating alien force and made them team up with the heroes to save everything.

 

The crowning point was when we switched back to the heroes game and they were going up against some known members of Eurostar and they recognized some of the new members as their former villains. They regretted writing them up quite so vicious and powerful that day.