Really, Hero Games? Two Rulebooks?

[KevinWI]

The cost of entry to the HERO System is absolutely insane.

 

My group of friends and I have been playing Star Wars Saga Edition for a while. We're looking for a new RPG (in part because we want to get away from the random-ized D&D like gameplay, in part because we're sick of Star Wars). We tried Eclipse Phase, couldn't get into it, we tried some of the White Wolf vampire stuff and couldn't get into it.

 

One of our guys was a Champions Online player and suggested Champions. Everybody seemed into the idea, I read some positive reviews online. Then I looked online and checked out the prices. Some of our players are in college, don't have a lot of free income. I, myself, as the GM, just spent a fortune on the rulebooks for Eclipse Phase and the White Wolf books.

 

I come here and check out the Champions base book. Oh, ok. I need the HERO rulebooks. Fine with me - the idea of generic RPG rules has always appealed to me. Then, I discover there isn't just ONE rulebook, but two.

 

I'm as much as a corrupt capitalist as anybody, but this pricing is insane. The cost of entry to SWSE was a $30 sourcebook. The cost of entry to Champions is $92. Way overpriced, and quite frankly, I'm leaning towards suggesting that we give one of our other games another try.

 

Oh yeah, and while I'm all fired up (and this has as much to do with all game publishers, not just HERO games), why are PDF versions of gamebooks just like $5 cheaper than the physical book? Why do I have a feeling that the profit margin is a bit thicker on a PDF book than a printed one. Nice work if you can get it.

 

As I said, I'm a free-market loving capitalist too. I understand HERO Games has a monopoly on this game and ruleset and can charge whatever they want - but quite frankly, their prices are offensive.

[Karmakaze]

Re: Really, Hero Games? Two Rulebooks?

 

On the other hand, the cost of entry to, say, Dungeons and Dragons 4th edition is in the same neighborhood (the dm's guide, players guide and monster manual run $35 apiece, making the three core D&D rulebooks come out a hair over $100).

 

You may want to consider starting with the basic rules - they're only $20.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Really, Hero Games? Two Rulebooks?

 

And you don't need the Champions Genre Book to play the game either - as long as you know what you want and are willing to invest some time into Campaign Creation the Champions Book is just a really good series of guidelines.

 

And the Cost On Entry on just rulebooks is the same as it is for Dungeons And Dragons. And GURPS (which is also two rulebooks).

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Really, Hero Games? Two Rulebooks?

 

Original Poster:

 

I understand your pain. I am very poor. I haven't purchased an RPG book in years because the extra funds just don't exist. So I feel ya. That being said, HERO is a bit different from a lot of the other games out there. Most of D&D's rules will fit into a 120 page book. If they wanted to, they could reduce the amount and size of the artwork and tighten up the layout to fit the Players Handbook, GM's Guide and Monster Manual all into one hefty volume. HERO simply can't do this, the rules are far too crunchy to fit into such a format. Thus you get a book that is only the core rules and it will probably come in at around 300 pages. You can't fit a Genre book (Champions) and a creatures supplement (Hero System Beastiary) as well, because those books are both 150+ pages in and of themselves. It just simply can't be done.

 

It is unfortunate for those of us who do not have a lot of disposable income, but the alternative is that HERO skimp on the quality of their system to fit more stuff into the core book. NO THANK YOU!

[incrdbil]

Re: Really, Hero Games? Two Rulebooks?

 

Looking at the online store 80 bucks get you both books and both PDF's. 70 bucks gets you both books from here. As a player, you can choose between the full character creation rules or the basic rulebook for only 20 bucks. Only 1 Combat and Adventuring Book is needed, and thats for the GM.

 

Like it or not, for viable, professional quality hardback color RPG books, these are the minimum prices you'll be looking at for pretty much any system.

 

Lets look at the Saga system--a book fixed on one certain setting. Naturally, it can be more compact than HERO, which is a multi-genre universal game. But one book alone wasnt what a gaming group would have--plenty of sourcebooks were made for SWSE just from a quick ebay search. So you'ld have the basic book, whatever campaign sourcebook you were in, starship rules...whatever game you play, they will make plentyof bokks you'll want to buy, or they will go out of business.

 

Looking at games out now--the 'core' rulebooks for D&D, with the ever growing Player handbooks series is ever growing. What is it now, 3 PHB's, plus 2 DMG's, plus you need a monters book, maybe a campaign setting ? (not that camppaign and setting seems to matter much to 4th edition D&D now..) Pathfinder comes with a minimum two to three books to start with. The Word of Darkness.. but you've got two rulebooks to buy there too, minimum, before you start thinking of sourcebooks.

 

 

This is the current status quo for the RPG industry. One book games are the exception, not the rule.

[tribe]

Re: Really, Hero Games? Two Rulebooks?

 

You could also buy an earlier version 2nd hand. I'm still keen on using the 5th Edition.

[kahuna's bro]

Re: Really, Hero Games? Two Rulebooks?

 

or the basic rulebook

[Fearghus]

Re: Really, Hero Games? Two Rulebooks?

 

I'm as much as a corrupt capitalist as anybody' date=' but this pricing is insane. The cost of entry to SWSE was a $30 sourcebook. The cost of entry to Champions is $92. Way overpriced, and quite frankly, I'm leaning towards suggesting that we give one of our other games another try.[/quote']

 

OK first off what everyone else said about the champions book. I have been playing and GMing super hero games for years and I have never owned a copy of the champions book.

 

So now lets break down the costs a bit shall we?

 

D&D

Players Handbook - $34.95

Dungeon Masters Guide - $34.95

Monster Manual - $34.95

Total - $104.85 plus endless supplements all of which have new rules, classes, powers....

 

GURPS

Characters Book - $39.95

Campaign Book - $34.95

Total - $74.90 plus genre books most of which are content you could create yourself

 

White Wolf

Generally every book is an independent game that you can only play ONE genre with and costs about $30-$35. So cheap to get started but if you want to play anything but a vampire, or werewolf, or whichever book was the first one you started with you will have to keep paying for new books.

 

Hero System

Multi-Book Bundle w/ the PDF download - $80

- or -

Multi-Book Bundle - $69.99

Total - $69.99 plus genre books whose content you can create yourself.

 

So you're complaining because hero is $5 CHEAPER than GURPS and $15 CHEAPER than D&D?

 

I think it should also be noted that not everyone at the table needs to own a copy of the books. Just one or two copies of the books at the game table is appropriate. At my weekly game only three players own the 5th ed books and I am the only one with 6th ed books. We're not playing 6th ed yet but I am learning it so that when we decide to switch I will be able to run it.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Really, Hero Games? Two Rulebooks?

 

For the most part, I agree with the OP. 5ER was a much more reasonable size and price. Instead of simplifying things again for 6E, we got big, huge, long descriptions of lots of corner cases and examples and such.

 

But despite that, it is still a very good system. Worth it? Yeah. But I've thought twice (and three times, and then scrapped the idea) about buying copies for my gamer friends for their birthdays. Oh well. The barrier to entry just got that much higher.

[megaplayboy]

Re: Really, Hero Games? Two Rulebooks?

 

I do happen to think the system rules are approaching a peak complexity limit, beyond which playability and marketability will decline markedly. Probably by "7th Edition, Revised and Expanded", the current approach will have been taken as far as it can go, and I predict that the "big crunch" in rule book size will begin with 8th edition(which would be, what, 10-20 years from now?). I also predict that edition will have a different author than the current one(who I expect will still be the author of 7th edition).

[Fearghus]

Re: Really, Hero Games? Two Rulebooks?

 

it's been a while since I bought my 5th ed books but I seem to recall that the 5th Ed. Rev. book was $55 or so. that's $15 more for 6th than for 5th... Yeah more expensive but still way cheaper than many other game systems out there and in my opinion more versatile than all of them. Sure other games systems have their advantages but dollar for dollar I think Hero is still the best game system around simply because of it's ability to run any genre.

[Roy_The_Ruthles]

Re: Really, Hero Games? Two Rulebooks?

 

I admit, I was skeptical of going from 1 5th edition revised book to 2 6th edition books, but the increase in production value, plus the fact that I want HERO to exist, made it worth it. Plus those two books are the only two books you will ever need irregardless of how many games you play.

[IndianaJoe3]

Re: Really, Hero Games? Two Rulebooks?

 

D&D

Total - $104.85 plus endless supplements all of which have new rules, classes, powers....

 

Point of order - I picked up a slipcased set of the original 3 books for ~$70.

 

Plus those two [HERO System] books are the only two books you will ever need irregardless of how many games you play.

 

This is true - if you buy the full version of the rules, you never need to spend another dollar on HERO. (Of course, I encourage all of us to buy as much as we can.)

[Matt the Bruins]

Re: Really, Hero Games? Two Rulebooks?

 

As for the hard vs. copy PDF pricing, let me assure you that product development prior to printing is a huge component of the overall cost to publishers. I would assume that DOJ prints the major releases in sufficient quantity that per-book materials and printing costs are relatively small thanks to volume. But each book is the result of hundreds or possibly thousands of hours of hard work by a number of skilled professionals.

[gojira]

Re: Really, Hero Games? Two Rulebooks?

 

As I said' date=' I'm a free-market loving capitalist too. I understand HERO Games has a monopoly on this game and ruleset and can charge whatever they want - but quite frankly, their prices are offensive.[/quote']

 

 

Sorry to have to do this but: "Obvious troll is obvious."

 

I've got some issues with the rule books, but there being two volumes or the cost aren't things that bothers me. The costs are very much in line with the rest of the industry, even a bit cheaper than some. I'm sorry you're feeling poor (I've been there too) but the books are a good value for what you pay. (Too good really, I think Hero Games should have saved themselves some money and made smaller books).

 

If cost is a big deal, the Basic Rulebook is much cheaper and a lighter weight rule-set too. At $15 for the PDF (or so? I didn't look) it's a great deal.

[dmjalund]

Re: Really, Hero Games? Two Rulebooks?

 

personally I feel the paper is just a little too thick. I keep on feeling like I'm turning two pages when I'm turning one

[Susano]

Re: Really, Hero Games? Two Rulebooks?

 

The OP better not try playing Dark Heresy or Rogue Trader. Core books are $60.00, while the various expansions are roughly $40.00 a pop. You can drop $200.00 in seconds on DH and RT simply by buying the two core books (that's 120 right there), the Inquisitor's Handbook (another $40.00) and Creatures Anathema and Disciples of the Dark Gods (each $35-40).

[BlueCloud2k2]

Re: Really, Hero Games? Two Rulebooks?

 

I've noticed that the OP hasn't once replied to this thread, and only has one posting on the forums...

 

But anyway, I agree with the others - you don't need a genre book if you are willing to do the work yourself, and it aint that hard - many Hero Games players have websites with stuff you can use to enhance your game. Not to mention you can pick up some of the older books on Ebay pretty cheap if you can find them.

 

That said, I have an old copy of the 4th Ed Genre-book/Core Rules book (the Big-Blue-Book) that I paid $20 for on Ebay when I first got started playing back in 2000. I am sure you could find a similar deal.

 

As far as generating your own Content, the good folks here at Hero Games are always willing to answer your questions/point you in the right direction.

[Mickael]

Re: Really, Hero Games? Two Rulebooks?

 

When I first saw the books in my local shop, I found the game very expensive, but after visiting herogames.com I understood that that was only due to the margin of the shop and probably the shipping costs (for example, I remember the BR was around 30 euros, which is around 40 US dollars...).

That's when I decided to order the pdf version of the game, and perhaps some day I'll order "real" books (enough of them to have free shipping^^).

[megaplayboy]

Re: Really, Hero Games? Two Rulebooks?

 

I'd also note that the GURPS 4th edition Deluxe set, if you can find a copy, with two hardcover books and around 600 pages of rules, sells for an MSRP of 125 bucks, and if you just get the two regular books it's still around 60 bucks. So Hero really is offering pretty good value for your gaming dollar.

[bobooton]

Re: Really, Hero Games? Two Rulebooks?

 

It's tough to argue costs, given that almost any book can be bought significantly below MSRP. Personally, I'd say that any game today is likely to be a significant investment. There are a few bargains out there, but $70 is a pretty typical buy-in price to run a game. The availability of free support varies by publisher & game, with some offering extensive free material and others offering nothing outside of user-made materials.

 

That said, I would also ask any potential buyer if they have significant time to devote to the game or not. As a GM, this is a pretty big issue, but HERO6 has a steep learning curve and a fat stack of pages that can be too much even for some players. If you've played prior versions, this isn't such a big deal, but if you're new to the game it can be a lot of work.

[Enlightened]

Re: Really, Hero Games? Two Rulebooks?

 

I am of the opinion that the two core books are worth every penny of the price at the current $69.

[JmOz]

Re: Really, Hero Games? Two Rulebooks?

 

To the OP, assuming he is even bothering to follow:

 

For what it is worth, if you are just getting into champions:

 

I would suggest as a starting set

 

Basic Book: $15

15D6 per player, price can vary immensely, but I think I got my last cube of 36 for $12

3-4 good trade paper backs of comic books that you feel are worht simulating and are of a team nature

[Escafarc]

Re: Really, Hero Games? Two Rulebooks?

 

To the OP, assuming he is even bothering to follow:

 

 

Looking at his profile posted and hasn't been back since.

[megaplayboy]

Re: Really, Hero Games? Two Rulebooks?

 

To the OP, assuming he is even bothering to follow:

 

For what it is worth, if you are just getting into champions:

 

I would suggest as a starting set

 

Basic Book: $15

15D6 per player, price can vary immensely, but I think I got my last cube of 36 for $12

3-4 good trade paper backs of comic books that you feel are worht simulating and are of a team nature

 

I tend to think of mondomats and 36d6 cubes as defining the outer parameters of Hero System--150 AP/30DC(36d6 with pushed haymaker--Dr. D.) and roughly 200m x 200m (two mondomats side by side). If anything in the campaign exceeds that, you're going to need to work some things out...