sobran Posted June 27, 2011 Report Share Posted June 27, 2011 The campaign I have been haltingly playing with my son started as a Teen Champions campaign. However, given his age (11), I think this was actually a poor choice. Teen Champions deals with a lot of coming of age issues that he isn't quite mature enough to grasp just yet. It seems likely that we will return to this in a couple years, but set it aside for now. I've started to realize from examining much of the fiction that he enjoys and is age-appropriate (The Last Airbender, Dragon Ball Z, ect) that a world-spanning plot that ignores some of the finer interpersonal issues might be better suited to him. The older, pre-90s comic books are serving as some of the inspiration for what I am sketching out in my head now. Less gritty, more bold heroics. With that in mind, I have purchased both The Book of the Destroyer and The Book of the Machine. I think having one solid master villain to set his sights on, no matter how out of his league, will be a nice goal for him and fit a lot of the fiction I'm looking to emulate. I bought both. However, in your opinion, which of these two villains would be better suited to be the focus of such a campaign? I worry about Dr. Destroyer's nazi roots, as that might be a little dark. Truth be told, I'm fairly unfamiliar with both of these villains. From the plot wheels I have turning in my head, people will die. Sad happenings aren't out of the question. It is just that some of it will be sanitized for his maturity level. Which villain do you think is better suited to be the focus of a campaign and why? What factors, beyond the need to sanitize it that I described above, might make one of them a better villain than the other? Does one or the other lend itself better to a variety of plot hooks and adventure types? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheQuestionMan Posted June 27, 2011 Report Share Posted June 27, 2011 Re: Dr. Destroyer or Mechanon? Mechanon makes you lose video games. Every glitch is his making. QM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheQuestionMan Posted June 27, 2011 Report Share Posted June 27, 2011 Re: Dr. Destroyer or Mechanon? Sorry, but seriously Mechanon make a better purely evil bad guy. He wants to destroy all organics including Dr. Destroyer. Also allows for Morality Issues to be covered under the title of really bad guy. QM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmjalund Posted June 27, 2011 Report Share Posted June 27, 2011 Re: Dr. Destroyer or Mechanon? also its easier to scale up the powers of the oponnents if the opponents are machines. And there is no problem with Killing - they are just machines Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sobran Posted June 27, 2011 Author Report Share Posted June 27, 2011 Re: Dr. Destroyer or Mechanon? Mechanon makes you lose video games. Every glitch is his making. QM I'm pretty sure he created Battletoads in an effort to prove how inferior organics are. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sobran Posted June 27, 2011 Author Report Share Posted June 27, 2011 Re: Dr. Destroyer or Mechanon? also its easier to scale up the powers of the oponnents if the opponents are machines. And there is no problem with Killing - they are just machines I hadn't considered this side of the issue. This allows me to sidestep that morality quandary. Moreover, I can still touch on that aspect during a specific adventure if I so choose, making sure that the choice is one I expect to come up and tailoring the adventure around that question. Does Mechanon use any AI underlings or are they all non-sentient? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
death tribble Posted June 27, 2011 Report Share Posted June 27, 2011 Re: Dr. Destroyer or Mechanon? I go with Dr Destroyer. For manipulation and pure evil. I ignore the shadow magic version as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orion Posted June 27, 2011 Report Share Posted June 27, 2011 Re: Dr. Destroyer or Mechanon? Mechanon, just because destroying robots is fun. No worry about code vs killing. No worry about public or law enforcement mistaking what is going on - hordes of robots are always evil. I don't have any AI serving Mechanon, but do let him control Borg-like cyborgs, and these could be used for moral quandries when needed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phoenix240 Posted June 27, 2011 Report Share Posted June 27, 2011 Re: Dr. Destroyer or Mechanon? I would go with Mechanon. It's an easily identifiable foe with simple motivations but intelligent enough to come up with interesting and gradiose plots to foil. There is no moral quandary over smashing machines (Even AIs aren't included in some CaKs) but there's always the possibility of introducing one of you want to later say one of Mechanon's projects "wakes up" or it somehow gains some mislead organic disciples (maybe cyborgs that want to be more Machine than human). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted June 27, 2011 Report Share Posted June 27, 2011 Re: Dr. Destroyer or Mechanon? Does Mechanon use any AI underlings or are they all non-sentient? As you'll see in Book Of The Machine, Mechanon has several "lieutenants" of lesser overall power which are capable of independent thought, although still programmed to be loyal to their creator. The variety of Mech's automated servants is entertainingly diverse, making for lots of different enemies to smash. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher Posted June 27, 2011 Report Share Posted June 27, 2011 Re: Dr. Destroyer or Mechanon? Actually, Dr. D uses a lot of Robots too. I don't know if this was mostly due to the "was lost for some time", but with a handfull exceptions (Black Talon, Fallout, Rakhasha, Shadow Destroyer), each of Dr. D's minions in Champions Online was a Robot (from Trooper Bot to the Mega Destroid). In fact there even is a robot double of him in the game/as boss enemy. And if we are about using robots: Foxbat uses them too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lapsedgamer Posted June 27, 2011 Report Share Posted June 27, 2011 Re: Dr. Destroyer or Mechanon? Mechanon. He is very easy to understand as a pure bad guy. Not a lot of subtext needed there. By the way, did you ever think about doing PS 238 for your kid. The PS238 RPG book is half price now, like all 5th edition stuff, and it's a great preteen setting. I got my godkids into the comics years ago and they loved them. They kept asking for them all of the time. I think I started buying them for them when they were 10, and they still liked them up until last Christmas when they were 14. They might still like them, but I haven't seen any around recently, so I stopped picking them up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher Posted June 27, 2011 Report Share Posted June 27, 2011 Re: Dr. Destroyer or Mechanon? By the way' date=' did you ever think about doing PS 238 for your kid. The PS238 RPG book is half price now, like all 5th edition stuff, and it's a great preteen setting. I got my godkids into the comics years ago and they loved them. They kept asking for them all of the time. I think I started buying them for them when they were 10, and they still liked them up until last Christmas when they were 14. They might still like them, but I haven't seen any around recently, so I stopped picking them up.[/quote'] Here is the webcomic version of PS238: http://nodwick.humor.gamespy.com/ps238/comics/index.php The setting book was based on that/a writeup of the main characters Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RexMundi Posted June 27, 2011 Report Share Posted June 27, 2011 Re: Dr. Destroyer or Mechanon? Got to lean in the direction of Mechanon on this one. ~Rex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. MID-Nite Posted June 28, 2011 Report Share Posted June 28, 2011 Re: Dr. Destroyer or Mechanon? Easy answer: Mechanon. Destroyer is really REALLY boring. Just about any master villain is more interesting....so yeah...Mechanon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RexMundi Posted June 28, 2011 Report Share Posted June 28, 2011 Re: Dr. Destroyer or Mechanon? Mechanon has more potential, especially in a Teen Game. Dr. Destroyer is like Using Paralax as an opening Villain in a Green Lantern origin Movie...... ~Rex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucius Posted June 28, 2011 Report Share Posted June 28, 2011 Re: Dr. Destroyer or Mechanon? One more vote for Mechanon. Not only is smashing robots guilt free fun, and not only does Mechanon lend itself to grandiose long term story arcs, but you can "sanitize" it for children and make sure his schemes seldom or never result in many actual deaths. When the children become old enough to question this or start to wonder about the hows and whys, they are ready for the final, climactic story arc in which they learn Mechanon's secret: Mechanon never stopped thinking of itself as being on Humanity's side. THAT's why none of its grand schemes work, and why so few even involve fatalities. It's not actually hoping to wipe out Humanity - the plan is to become such a powerful menace as to FORCE Human beings to unite, to organize, and learn the value of purposeful rational action. "Humanity is its own worst enemy. I shall change that." Lucius Alexander The palindromedary notes that Lucius has considered several possible visions for the character, but this is one of the more intriguing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sobran Posted June 28, 2011 Author Report Share Posted June 28, 2011 Re: Dr. Destroyer or Mechanon? One more vote for Mechanon. Not only is smashing robots guilt free fun, and not only does Mechanon lend itself to grandiose long term story arcs, but you can "sanitize" it for children and make sure his schemes seldom or never result in many actual deaths. When the children become old enough to question this or start to wonder about the hows and whys, they are ready for the final, climactic story arc in which learn Mechanon's secret: Mechanon never stopped thinking of itself as being on Humanity's side. THAT's why none of its grand schemes work, and why so few even involve fatalities. It's not actually hoping to wipe out Humanity - the plan is to become such a powerful menace as to FORCE Human beings to unite, to organize, and learn the value of purposeful rational action. "Humanity is its own worst enemy. I shall change that." Lucius Alexander The palindromedary notes that Lucius has considered several possible visions for the character, but this is one of the more intriguing. This, my friend, is positively brilliant. Rep coming your way once I get on a real computer. Mechanon it is then. The results were damn near unanimous. Why is Dr. Destroyer boring, out of curiosity? One last question. I bought Champions Universe, which will give me all the gritty backstory I need. However, I didn't pick up the actual Champions book, as it isn't available in hard copy right now. Silly printing clog. If one has the CU book and is fairly familiar with the comic book genre, how necessary or useful is the Champions book? Should I still pick it up down the line? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucius Posted June 28, 2011 Report Share Posted June 28, 2011 Re: Dr. Destroyer or Mechanon? This, my friend, is positively brilliant. Rep coming your way once I get on a real computer. Glad you think so. It's a conception that lets you do things like design deathtraps that are logic puzzles or that they can escape by co-operating with a minor villain trapped with them. They can think it's just Mechanon's contempt: "of course they could escape by doing X Y and Z, but the stupid illogical organic life forms would never think of that!" Hopefully you can string them along for years before they learn Mechanon's true overarching Master Program. Lucius Alexander Organic unit designated Lucius Alexander invariably concludes messages with some reference to a palindromedary. Query: In what ways can this illogical and compulsive behavior pattern be exploited? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher Posted June 28, 2011 Report Share Posted June 28, 2011 Re: Dr. Destroyer or Mechanon? Mechanon it is then. The results were damn near unanimous. Why is Dr. Destroyer boring' date=' out of curiosity?[/quote'] Perhaps (just ideas): To much Dr. Doom clone? Hardly known personal motivations? Or perhaps simple Motivations (Like Mechanon, Ogre or Grond have them or things like Greed, Revenge, Quest for Power) are easier to realte? Also, Dr. D's plans can hardly "stand alone". Every single plot is expected to be somehow part of a bigger sheme. Mechanon is more likely to have really stupid Ideas ("Artificial Intelligence beats human stupidity by lenghts" - Earth 2150, Mission Briefing). One last question. I bought Champions Universe' date=' which will give me all the gritty backstory I need. However, I didn't pick up the actual Champions book, as it isn't available in hard copy right now. Silly printing clog. If one has the CU book and is fairly familiar with the comic book genre, how necessary or useful is the Champions book? Should I still pick it up down the line?[/quote'] I can say the PDF is a good choice and worth it's money. It goes through various Genres/Ages, has example characters (good for balacing to have examples), Equipment and Rules very usefull for Superheroic games, a random plot generator... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbywolfe Posted June 28, 2011 Report Share Posted June 28, 2011 Re: Dr. Destroyer or Mechanon? One of my favorite "dumb" Mechanon plots is from 5E Champions Universe: News of the World, which gives some info about what the characters had been up to since their basic info had been introduced in CU. He had observed that humans were frightened by over-sized things, particularly giant monsters (Godzilla, King Kong, et cetera) so he made a giant robot body version of himself and attacked the city. It's been a while since I read it, but I don't think there was much more detail than that. It wasn't part of some big master scheme, just his latest attempt to wipe out humanity with a 20 story tall version of himself. Can you say easy target? Should have stuck with the robot army... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher Posted June 28, 2011 Report Share Posted June 28, 2011 Re: Dr. Destroyer or Mechanon? I created this character for the "Create a Hero Theme Team" Thread, target was a group that are lawyers in Secret ID. I don't think anyone would say this action is too far fetched of for him... Virgo: Mechanon sometimes tries to replace liveforms with mechanical versions. Once, he even tried to replace attorneys that way. His one and only prototype of the "Mechattorney" took the name Micheal Orney. However, due to the implanted knowledge of basic human rights Micheal soon realized that he had less freedom when following Mechanon than on his own. So he escaped and switched his Secret ID, thus throwing the mechanical meanance of his trail. However, his knowledge for justice also drove him to bring justice and fairness to as many people as possible and eventually he took on the cape. At day, he is Micheal Örney, dutch lawyer fighting in the courtrooms for justice, always carefull to not be detected as a robot. At night, he is Virgo, dons the "everwhite west", "the blindfold of impartiality" and swings his "sword of justice" on evildoers. However, mechanon didn't took long to identify his Heroic ID as one of his stray Mechano-Units. However, he is still totally oblivious about the Secret ID. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadow Hawk Posted June 28, 2011 Report Share Posted June 28, 2011 Re: Dr. Destroyer or Mechanon? Mechanon. With his "automatic rebuild but better" function, you can defeat him utterly and still have him show up next week. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Escafarc Posted June 28, 2011 Report Share Posted June 28, 2011 Re: Dr. Destroyer or Mechanon? I like both but then again my Dr. D is a little more Vandal Savage(he's been around since Atlantis) then Dr. Doom. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sobran Posted June 28, 2011 Author Report Share Posted June 28, 2011 Re: Dr. Destroyer or Mechanon? It appears I need to spread around some reputation, ect ect. Someone hit Lucius for me? I went ahead and bought the PDF of Champions 6E on your say-so Christopher. It's an interesting read so far, though I admit it cuts against the grain for me to pay that much for an electronic version. It's going to hurt when I turn around and buy the hardcover when they come back into print. Ah well. I'll worry about that then. Now I just need to figure out how to bust my son's character out of Ravenswood Academy so I can do away with that troublesome bit. I am thinking that Mechanon may decide he wants the alien device in Darkstar's chest for some nefarious purpose and begins hunting him. Mechanon's minions are powerful enough that he has to go on the run, being safer in hiding than in one location, no matter how secure. It doesn't really make sense that other heroes with a lot of resources wouldn't simply protect him, but I guess it is a pretty common genre trope to ignore that kind of thing. I considered the idea of him moving from location to location, not so much fighting a guerilla war as trying to stay out of the way while simultaneously foiling Mechanon's various nefarious plots. That doesn't feel very heroic though. The second idea I had was for the computer AI at Ravenswood (Plato) or some other being to somehow divert resources into building him a base. My thought was that it would be neat for him to have some sort of extra-dimensional or otherwise hidden or inaccessible base from which he operates. Anyone have some ideas to help flesh this out? In particular, characters that fit into the CU that might help accomplish this or reasons why he would end up on his own--though possibly with the help of friends he makes later. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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