Are Overall Skill Levels overpowered?

[thewomble]

Say in a Heroic campaign, shouldn't every character just buy a dozen skills for 30-40 points, then 3-4 Overall Skill Levels for +3 to +4 in everything?

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Are Overall Skill Levels overpowered?

 

They'll still be average at everything. The character with a little more narrow focus (combat or non-combat) spending part or all those Overall Level Points on less expensive levels will outshine them in their chosen arena of expertise.

[Ternaugh]

Re: Are Overall Skill Levels overpowered?

 

Remember too, that Overall skill levels may apply to multiple skills, but only one at a time (you have to allocate them). So, those 4 levels will get used up pretty fast, especially if in combat, or if complementary skill rolls are required.

 

JoeG

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Are Overall Skill Levels overpowered?

 

Does make for a good jack-of-all-trades character though. If you like playing the Pointman in Spycraft, this is a good Hero build for you.

[Christopher]

Re: Are Overall Skill Levels overpowered?

 

The main propblem really is, that you can't use them everywhere needed.

If you apply them to OCV, they won't be there for your:

DCV, Damage, Perception Rolls, Breakfall Rolls, Tactics Rolls, and many more.

What if you fight in an environment, where you need Acrobatics (balance) not to fall? Where will you put thoses levels, DCV/OCV/Perception or Acrobatics?

 

While it is certainly cheaper, it also puts you at an disdvantage once you have to use more than one Skill between your phases wich I think is enough to warant their price break.

[LordGhee]

Re: Are Overall Skill Levels overpowered?

 

Our extended group of about twenty Hero players I am the only one who uses overall levels. I like the effect it has on my charaters as it make them competent at what they do. The extra effect on perception and Intell rolls make them I (and the only one) believe a great value. There are alway charaters that are better fighters or what ever but I always hold my own.

 

Lord Ghee

[Xavier Onassiss]

Re: Are Overall Skill Levels overpowered?

 

In terms of their point cost, how do Overall skill levels compare to a VPP used only for skill levels?

[Zen Archer]

Re: Are Overall Skill Levels overpowered?

 

Does make for a good jack-of-all-trades character though.

 

 

I'd agree with this. I once played a character in a 250-point campaign who was 150-points plus 10 Overall Levels. The GM thought it was funny, and the character (Karl the Night Watchman) was meant to be support to the main heroes, so it was allowed. Worked rather well.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Are Overall Skill Levels overpowered?

 

Say in a Heroic campaign' date=' shouldn't every character just buy a dozen skills for 30-40 points, then 3-4 Overall Skill Levels for +3 to +4 in everything?[/quote']

 

Overall Skill Levels are very expensive. You can easily purchase 10 skills for the cost of 3 Overall Skill Levels. Remember, the Skill Levels just add to existing skills. If your character has no skill in the area in question to begin with, they won't help.

 

However with that being said, Overall Skill Levels are Awesome and Powerful. They can make characters hyper competent at just about everything. 3 overall skill levels is a lot. And should represent a highly skilled character like Batman or Obi-Wan or Indiana Jones etc.

 

If a character is starting out at the beginning of their career, they probably shouldn't have any Overall Skill Levels, or at the very least, no more than +1 OSL (to represent Jack of All Trades type potential). If you are making a character that is supposed to be somewhat experienced, +2 or +3 might be okay. More than that I wouldn't allow for a starting character. They would have to buy them during the course of gameplay.

[thewomble]

Re: Are Overall Skill Levels overpowered?

 

Yes, the consensus seems to be that they are actually not so overpowered and the more I think about it, I agree.

 

By the way, I'm going off the 6e Basic and Vol I books. In Basic, it says "see text for more explanation" but nothing is said in the text. That text is instead found in the full rules. However, the Vol I rules do not make it clear that Overall Levels apply only to skills the character already possesses, something which is mentioned in the Basic Rules. In addition, the table in the Basic rules has incorrect costs, so you need to consult the online errata.

 

So for a new player to work out the rules, you need both books, access to the errata, and a dose of good luck.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Are Overall Skill Levels overpowered?

 

Yes, the consensus seems to be that they are actually not so overpowered and the more I think about it, I agree.

 

By the way, I'm going off the 6e Basic and Vol I books. In Basic, it says "see text for more explanation" but nothing is said in the text. That text is instead found in the full rules. However, the Vol I rules do not make it clear that Overall Levels apply only to skills the character already possesses, something which is mentioned in the Basic Rules. In addition, the table in the Basic rules has incorrect costs, so you need to consult the online errata.

 

So for a new player to work out the rules, you need both books, access to the errata, and a dose of good luck.

 

Does that really need to be stated? Skill Levels improve a skill roll. If you don't have a skill what roll would you be improving?

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Are Overall Skill Levels overpowered?

 

In terms of their point cost' date=' how do Overall skill levels compare to a VPP used only for skill levels?[/quote']

 

While I don't know the cost breakdown off hand, it should be noted that putting skills in a VPP is already in GM permission territory. My gut reaction to someone who wanted a VPP only for Skill Levels would be "no", at least until I had time to inspect the build and consider the SFX.

[Vondy]

Re: Are Overall Skill Levels overpowered?

 

I find them well suited to solo heroes, or broadly competent characters (jack of trades, etc).

 

They aren't all powerful because you have to move them around, which requires some thought/planning.

 

They are also a bit pricey, but I find them worth the buy in for the aforementioned concepts.

 

In a team situation, especially where characters have niches, it will often prove cheaper - and more appropriate - to specialize.

 

Ergo, on the A-Team you have specialists with niches. They neither operate solo nor tread on one another's toes. McGuyver, he needs overall levels...

[Christopher]

Re: Are Overall Skill Levels overpowered?

 

In terms of their point cost' date=' how do Overall skill levels compare to a VPP used only for skill levels?[/quote']

As bigbywolfe i doubt that is legal...

 

However' date=' the Vol I rules do not make it clear that Overall Levels apply only to skills the character already possesses, something which is mentioned in the Basic Rules.[/quote']

They improve a skill roll, so how could they imporve a roll that doesn't exists? And of coruse they can only apply to skils bought at "Characterics Roll" Level. So you need at least 3 points per Skill.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Are Overall Skill Levels overpowered?

 

They improve a skill roll' date=' so how could they improve a roll that doesn't [i']exists[/i]?

 

Well, I have not read the rules round this, but from what people have quoted it is an important differentiator. If the GM is willing to give you a chance to drive the airplane and land it even though you do not have the pilot skill then the overall levels will not count - you do not have the skill. If your overall levels added to such events then it would be MUCH more useful.

 

This is especially true when you are talking about those base 8 or less rolls. +3 to that brings your chances up from 26% to 62%. If you were rolling, hoping to get a 3 or less then the levels increase your chances from 0.5% to 9%.

 

Those are significant differences at the bottom end of the scale.

 

 

Doc

[Lucius]

Re: Are Overall Skill Levels overpowered?

 

In other words, when you most need them - when your chances are slimmest - is when you can't use them.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary is experiencing deja vu

[Christopher]

Re: Are Overall Skill Levels overpowered?

 

Well' date=' I have not read the rules round this, but from what people have quoted it is an important differentiator. If the GM is willing to give you a chance to drive the airplane and land it even though you do not have the pilot skill then the overall levels will not count - you do not have the skill. If your overall levels added to such events then it would be MUCH more useful.[/quote']

I haven't considered Characteristics Rolls in place of skill rolls, but those a are GM-decision anyway.

 

This is especially true when you are talking about those base 8 or less rolls. +3 to that brings your chances up from 26% to 62%. If you were rolling' date=' hoping to get a 3 or less then the levels increase your chances from 0.5% to 9%.[/quote']

This is explicitly not allowed according to the Rules for "Familarities and Proficies" on 6E1 56.

The minimum to add seems to Char-base roll (or the 11- for 2 points Background Skills)

[Xavier Onassiss]

Re: Are Overall Skill Levels overpowered?

 

While I don't know the cost breakdown off hand' date=' it should be noted that putting skills in a VPP is already in GM permission territory. My gut reaction to someone who wanted a VPP only for Skill [i']Levels[/i] would be "no", at least until I had time to inspect the build and consider the SFX.

 

Yes, I realize that; no argument on that point. My main reason for asking was for comparing the price. If there's a cheaper way of getting the same benefit, then I'd be less inclined to say that OSL's are underpriced. OTOH, if the VPP method actually costs more than 12pts, then maybe the price on OSL's should be looked at again.

 

I haven't actually crunched the numbers yet (too many other projects) but I'm betting the VPP costs less.

[lemming]

Re: Are Overall Skill Levels overpowered?

 

We found them sufficiently powerful to limit them to five for any character, but we had a lot of skilled characters in our campaigns.

 

Though occasionally we'd get silly with one detective character making some roll by 20 or so (with complimentary skills etc) finding the smallest detail and getting a long drawn out description, meanwhile the char that made it by 3 would already get to the scene since they just needed to know a more general clue. (And yes, it was just the players & GM being silly, nothing game relevant. )

[Xavier Onassiss]

Re: Are Overall Skill Levels overpowered?

 

In other words, when you most need them - when your chances are slimmest - is when you can't use them.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary is experiencing deja vu

 

 

OTOH, complementary skills can be used to aid an 'unskilled' check. And if a character has the complementary skill, the OSL's will help them on that roll. This is dependent on how often the GM allows the use of complementary skill rolls. I tend to use them fairly often in my campaign, and this is one of the reasons why -- it gives the PCs a useful 'workaround' when they'd otherwise be stumped. The more options they have, the better.

[Christopher]

Re: Are Overall Skill Levels overpowered?

 

We found them sufficiently powerful to limit them to five for any character' date=' but we had a lot of skilled characters in our campaigns.[/quote']

Yes, more than 4 has the problem of inflating Skill Roll way over the campaing limits.

 

Regarding the price.

I had made some calculations regarding 10 point Combat Skill levels, and this is what I found:

10 10-point Reserve Multipower

2f +2 OCV (10 AP)

2f +2 DCV (10 AP)

1 +1 DC generalised, 0 End Damage (10 AP)

 

Would togehter cost 15 points. So the price of 10 is less than what building this a Multipower would cost (of course, other limitatiosn might be applied to the Multipower, bringing this price closer to 10. Any Limitations worth -1 would work.

[Christopher]

Re: Are Overall Skill Levels overpowered?

 

OTOH' date=' if the VPP method actually costs more than 12pts, then maybe the price on OSL's should be looked at again.[/quote']

The main problem I see is that you have to fit the OCV/DCV bonus into it. Each of them is 5 points, so you need at least a 5 Controll/5 Reserve VPP. So I would just asume the 12 points are simply becuase 10-Pt CSL + 10-Pt Skill-Level seemed to overpriced. Also OSL are "odd" in that they can apply to Combat Skills.

 

Taking the 10 point Skill Levels, I would simply assume there are:

+10 for Characteristic, 10 Base Points; For all Characteristics (+X), Only for Non-combat Skill tests and only on Skill at a Time (-X)

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Are Overall Skill Levels overpowered?

 

Yes, more than 4 has the problem of inflating Skill Roll way over the campaing limits.

 

Regarding the price.

I had made some calculations regarding 10 point Combat Skill levels, and this is what I found:

10 10-point Reserve Multipower

2f +2 OCV (10 AP)

2f +2 DCV (10 AP)

1 +1 DC generalised, 0 End Damage (10 AP)

 

Would togehter cost 15 points. So the price of 10 is less than what building this a Multipower would cost (of course, other limitatiosn might be applied to the Multipower, bringing this price closer to 10. Any Limitations worth -1 would work.

 

The Multipower is two skill levels, not one. It allows +2 OCV or +2 DCV, or a DC. Add in slots for mOCV and mDCV (+2 maximum each, so one point each as flex slots) and the cost goes to 17, or 8.5 points per "combat skill level".

[Ice9]

Re: Are Overall Skill Levels overpowered?

 

OSLs are fun, but not incredibly powerful. In particular, they'll never never match raw stats or specific skill levels for being competent in one area.

For example:

+5 OSLs vs +60 Int: +5 to one Intellect skill at a time, or +12 to all of them at once?

+5 OSLs vs +6 OCV & DCV vs +6 DCV & +6 CSLs w/ Medium Group

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Are Overall Skill Levels overpowered?

 

An often overlooked benefit of all skill levels is how they allow the skills they apply to be used more quickly by offsetting the time chart penalties.

 

from 6e1 page 59:

...if a character has to perform a task in less time than it normally takes, he suffers a -3 penalty for each level up the Time Chart. For example, to perform a task that normally takes five minutes in 12 seconds (one Turn), a character must make his Skill Roll with a -6 penalty to his Skill.

 

So 3 Overall Levels can be looked upon as a Power/Talent-like ability all on its own since the character is just "quick" at doing things.

This is why I often use them as framework slots* to represent "super-speed" and typically restrain from giving more than 2 Overall Levels (at least to start with) to non-superpowered characters.

*Yes, GM approval is required.