[New Product] Champions Complete

[memorax300]

Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

I know I am in the minority about CC. As far as I'm concerned CC is an open topic. While I'm happy about it I also question HG investing in such a product. Even if fans have been asking for it. Not because I want CC or HG to fail. I want it to succeed. Yet sometihing tells me a gut feeling that CC will make or break HG. That's what worries me. I don't mind being criticized except when it's less about the post and more along the lines of getting shouted down because I'm not 100% behind CC. The more I think about CC the more it seems like a good product. When I saw the 6E core for the first time to me anyway it felt like they ignored all the critism they recieved about 5E size and instead made the game more intmidating and less accessible. A very comprehensive set of tomes yet not something that would imo get fans who disliked the size of 5E back onto the fold. With enough advertising, good production values and a decent price while I don't see a huge influx of ex-fans coming back I do see more of them coming back. Gamers who hate complexity won't come back imo. Those fans are lost to Savage worlds and other rules light systems. Hopefull enough will come back into the fold so that the 6E library will come back into print. It's kind of hard to sell the system even with CC when distrbutors and LGS at least in my neck of the woods can't get the majority of the 6E books in stores. Used copies on amazon are just overpriced. Call it doom and gloom all you like a lack of 6E books in stores even with PDFs is not a good thing. Hopefully another thing that CC will change. Since when did having a difference of opinion become "doom and gloom".

[scorpionx1]

Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

this is a forum, we are GOING to voice our opinions. whether you like it or not. AND they all deserve to be heard.

 

okay with that out of the way, i agree a lot with what memorax is saying. with superhero movies all the rage now, the time is upon us to grab more HERO system players. they company needs to think about doing more than just a one book effort. yes it may be difficult but take some risk, set the goal high! ask yourself, what would a superhero do?????

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

Okay, this is a little weird, but it seems necessary...

 

Speaking As A Moderator: Folks, please stop telling each other what is and isn't okay to say. As long as the board rules of conduct aren't being violated, it's okay. It's fine to offer opinions, and it's fine to respond with counter-opinions. But please stop short of telling people what they can post. Thanks!

 

Okay now, back to Speaking As An Author: Carry on.

[Pattern Ghost]

Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

Since the subject of art keeps coming up, I was wondering about something. Back when the deal was made with Cryptic, I thought part of it was access to their art assets for Champions products. Am I remembering that wrong? If not, will Hero be using some of those? (Or, have they? Since I haven't got any 6th Ed. Champs stuff to know.)

[Andrew_A]

Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

Okay, moving on...

 

(We're all friends here. )

 

well i thought about this more and was originally a 'naysayer' so to speak, but now i realize the potential. I have come around to the 1 book idea, i see the reasoning for it now, however 240 pages seems short for HERO. I had never read M&M before but i picked up a copy and i was surprised at the quality. it has come along way from d20 and is barely recognizable from normal d20 stuff now. hells bells, looks like they stole some HERO concepts too... just look at the powers and points system. in my mind M&M is what HERO is competing against; they need to get some of that market share back.

 

so how do we do that? GREAT art and in-color, not B&W art. I understand it is cost prohibitive but this is a mistake as the competition has good art and in color. And the cover should be very superheroey! and hardcover would be preferable but not a deal killer as long as color and art were good.

 

if all this happens then the differentiator becomes the support books. M&M 3e is still new and doesn't have much support yet. They also seem to be stymied into supporting DC Adventures RPG so support will come slow. CC on the other hand will be compatible with 6E and even 5E will little to no conversion necessary. So HERO gets the win, but only if the book is color and arty!

 

So i really implore DOJ to look at a color book and getting quality art in there! C'mon, you guys can do it!!!!! please don't half-ass this up!!!

 

p.s. if these suggestions were incorporated, i would support a kickstarter!

 

For me personally, I prefer colour art. However, I can appreciate the economic realities too. Colour art doesn't just affect the price of the book, it affects the cost-per-unit of the books too. Even if HG sells fewer copies of CC than M&M (by GR*), they'll still make (theoretically) more money, because the cost-per-unit will be lower.

 

Remember what Derek said earlier: It doesn't just cost a lot to print a colour book. It costs a lot to reprint it too. This is part of the reason 6E 1 & 2 are unavailable. It costs too much to reprint them. If one of the goals is, as Memorax said, to keep the books in print and available, then keeping the costs low is best way to make sure they're still available.

 

Also, remember the competition. D&D and Pathfinder are still in colour, but those sell well enough that the authors make a decent living wage. M&M is in colour, but Green Ronin's release schedule is very erratic, even for their $1 PDFS. GURPS used to be in colour, but they sold so few volumes of the non-core books that a lot of their releases and re-releases (e.g. Fantasy, Space, Low Tech, Horror, etc.) have had to be in black and white.

 

I want to see colour as much as the next guy, but unless you want the books to be PDF only (eliminates printing costs), it's just not a good idea in the long run.

 

*Too many abreviations.

[Michael Hopcroft]

Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

I want to see colour as much as the next guy, but unless you want the books to be PDF only (eliminates printing costs), it's just not a good idea in the long run.

 

*Too many abreviations.

 

I still remember when Steve Long said he didn't want to be in the PDF business. Today, if you're an RPG publisher who isn't WOTC PDFs are part of your marketing strategy.

 

One could make a case either way in terms of the value of PDFs to gamers. Personally I love them. I can carry a whole library on my Nook, giving me all the books I need to plan a game. One could make a case that a lot of the creative innovation going on in RPG design is possible because of PDF publishing.

 

But I can also see the advantages of hardcopies.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

I had no influence on the decision whether to print the book in color or B&W (I'm just a freelancer). But even if I had, I probably would have favored B&W. Of course the color art is attractive, but I don't think it's so attractive that it makes the increased cost factors worthwhile. And while shelf appeal compared to competing games is also a factor, I think two things are true here:

 

1. Most of shelf appeal comes from the cover (once they've picked it up to look at the interiors, they might find other aspects of the book appealing besides just color art).

 

2. Let's face it: Folks have never come to Champions because it was pretty. That's not the draw. People who would genuinely choose the game they want to play just based on which book is the prettiest, are probably pretty unlikely to have been happy with Champions anyway. It's a high-crunch, substance-over-style kind of game. Now, of course that's no reason not to make it look as good as reasonably possible, but if it was all about looks, the original Champions game would never have been a big hit.

[Andrew_A]

Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

I had no influence on the decision whether to print the book in color or B&W (I'm just a freelancer). But even if I had' date=' I probably would have favored B&W. Of course the color art is attractive, but I don't think it's [b']so[/b] attractive that it makes the increased cost factors worthwhile. And while shelf appeal compared to competing games is also a factor, I think two things are true here:

 

1. Most of shelf appeal comes from the cover (once they've picked it up to look at the interiors, they might find other aspects of the book appealing besides just color art).

 

2. Let's face it: Folks have never come to Champions because it was pretty. That's not the draw. People who would genuinely choose the game they want to play just based on which book is the prettiest, are probably pretty unlikely to have been happy with Champions anyway. It's a high-crunch, substance-over-style kind of game. Now, of course that's no reason not to make it look as good as reasonably possible, but if it was all about looks, the original Champions game would never have been a big hit.

 

Absolutely true. Another thing I wanted to add is that "great art" is highly subjective. A lot of people loved the art for M&M 1e. I hated it. A lot of people hated the art in the first few Hero 5e books, while I thought they looked really nice (as nice as you can get in black and white).

 

Even going outside of gaming, there are people who don't like Michael Whelan or Alex Ross and I think those guys are great. On the other side, I don't like Dave McKean's Sandman covers, even though he has fans. Art might draw people in, but it won't force them to stick around and it might not even pay the bills long term.

[gojira]

Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

For me personally, I prefer colour art. However, I can appreciate the economic realities too....

 

Just to provide a counterpoint: while I would personally agree that colour and glossy pages are better, as I look at my bookshelf, there is not one color book by Hero Games. So the color art wasn't enough to move me to buy. Also, I have very few color game books in general. The only one I can think of off the top of my head is Castle Falkenstein.

 

So while color is nice, personally I have to say it doesn't sell me on a game book.

[Sketchpad]

Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

I prefer color, but I've been slowly moving my way over to electronic books due to lack of space and, and using computers more and more at the game table. I'd love to see B&W print book, but color interiors for the PDFs. Also, if I can get a slight bit of my design snobbery out, I really like the graphic novel size of the M&M and Icons books. I realize that could be hard for Hero, but I just find it easier to bring around Now, I doubt Hero would go to that size, and realize that I'll probably never see it (and that's okay), but if I had my preference...

[Andrew_A]

Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

I prefer color' date=' but I've been slowly moving my way over to electronic books due to lack of space and, and using computers more and more at the game table. I'd love to see B&W print book, but color interiors for the PDFs. Also, if I can get a slight bit of my design snobbery out, I really like the graphic novel size of the M&M and Icons books. I realize that could be hard for Hero, but I just find it easier to bring around Now, I doubt Hero would go to that size, and realize that I'll probably never see it (and that's okay), but if I had my preference... [/quote']

 

I'm with you friend. Smaller books just look fun to me.

[RexMundi]

Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

Color art and all that stuff is fine.......

 

For the Limited Edition Collectible. A Working Book, that's a different story........

 

~Rex

[Hierax]

Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

Really looking forward to this one for it's condensed nature (more than for the Champions) but even more so I hope there'll be a Complete Fantasy Hero (and/or a Universal Hero System) version somewhen down the line...

[Andrew_A]

Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

Color art and all that stuff is fine.......

 

For the Limited Edition Collectible. A Working Book, that's a different story........

 

~Rex

 

Not a fan of limited edition collectibles. This is selfish and petty of me, but those things are hard for me to acquire and I don't like the idea of somebody having some rare collectible that I don't. I was lucky enough to get Silver Age Sentinels Limited Edition, but I've never seen Wild Talents 1e or the Champions 25th Anniversary edition or the GURPS Limited Edition Slipcase or any of a number of limited collectible things. It's annoying.

 

Sorry.

[memorax300]

Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

I understand that color art is not an option yet I see no reason not to make the B&W are good as it can be. It's easy to point to older editions and say the art was not the selling point. Except back then unlike now HG has a lot more competion in the market for generic rpgs. And imo we are a very visual species. If the rest of the competion als ohad poor to avergage art you could get away with the same. Unfortunately that is not the case. Poor art in CC is not a deal breaker for me. Yet it would imo be a mistake on HG part.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

I understand that color art is not an option yet I see no reason not to make the B&W are good as it can be. It's easy to point to older editions and say the art was not the selling point. Except back then unlike now HG has a lot more competion in the market for generic rpgs. And imo we are a very visual species. If the rest of the competion als ohad poor to avergage art you could get away with the same. Unfortunately that is not the case. Poor art in CC is not a deal breaker for me. Yet it would imo be a mistake on HG part.

 

Well, although like I said, I'm just a freelancer, and not part of Hero Games, I feel pretty confident in saying that they have no intention of deliberately using bad art. Though as Andrew_A noted, art quality is very subjective.

[memorax300]

Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

Well' date=' although like I said, I'm just a freelancer, and not part of Hero Games, I feel pretty confident in saying that they have no intention of deliberately using bad art. Though as Andrew_A noted, art quality is very subjective. [/quote']

 

I'm assuming HG is not going to use bad art. At the same time it needs to be more than "well bad art worked in the past".

[Andrew_A]

Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

I'm assuming HG is not going to use bad art. At the same time it needs to be more than "well bad art worked in the past".

 

I don't think anybody's going to say that. And like I said before, great (or at least good) art is subjective. Back in the day, I really liked Mark Williams art (odd anatomy and foreshortening aside). Also, HG has access to Cryptic's art, so getting competent art (still subjective*) is possible.

 

*In case anyone's wondering, I like Cryptic's art. Even the Defender "Tron armour."

[Andrew_A]

Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

BTW, I've been looking at Sam Kennedy's art on Google Images. Not bad.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

HG makes money by making and selling books. Obviously they aren't going to put out a book they expect to have poor sales. Therefore saying they shouldn't make this (or any) book until they magically have more money saved up is just foolish. Likewise, if the core books had done extremely well they would probably still be in print, so saying they should reprint the expensive color core books that didn't do well enough to fund there own further re-printing before printing this book that is replacing them is ridiculous. If someone doesn't think this book is a good idea they are obviously entitled to their opinion, but berating the company for not considering things they have quite obviously already taken into consideration seems to be either ignorance of the situation or merely looking for a reason to complain.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

I'm assuming HG is not going to use bad art. At the same time it needs to be more than "well bad art worked in the past".

So you assume they ahve intentionally used bad art in the past? Or that they'll look at some really horrible art and say "meh, put it in the book, art hasn't hurt our sales before"? Is this really somehow a concern?

[Andrew_A]

Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

HG makes money by making and selling books. Obviously they aren't going to put out a book they expect to have poor sales. Therefore saying they shouldn't make this (or any) book until they magically have more money saved up is just foolish. Likewise' date=' if the core books had done extremely well they would probably still be in print, so saying they should reprint the expensive color core books that didn't do well enough to fund there own further re-printing before printing this book that is [b']replacing them[/b] is ridiculous. If someone doesn't think this book is a good idea they are obviously entitled to their opinion, but berating the company for not considering things they have quite obviously already taken into consideration seems to be either ignorance of the situation or merely looking for a reason to complain.

 

At the risk of speaking for Memorax (apologies if I'm misrepresenting your viewpoint Mem), but I don't think he wants colour art for the sake of a pretty book. I think he wants colour art as a way to boost sales. That's something we all want; you, me, him, Derek, Jason...All of us. He's just making a well intentioned suggestion, that's all.

 

So you assume they ahve intentionally used bad art in the past? Or that they'll look at some really horrible art and say "meh' date=' put it in the book, art hasn't hurt our sales before"? Is this really somehow a concern?[/quote']

 

Maybe. Speaking for Mem again, the big concern is that HG won't put as much care and intention into the art as other things. Again, I don't think HG is going to half-@$$ this, but other companies might.

 

Obviously, Hero Games is not other companies and the artwork is IMHO going to be great. (Although, as I said, great art is subjective.)

[bigbywolfe]

Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

You seem to have completely missed the point of my first post you quoted which had nothing to do with color art at all. EDIT: Also, I didn't actually go back and see who said it (hence why I didn't quote anyone), but "don't make this (staple of your business) item until you just have more money somehow" doesn't seem like a very plausable suggestion for any company regardless of intent.

[RexMundi]

Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

Boosting Sales is fine. From my experience as an avid purchaser of games, and a long term Professional Demo guy; a Good Solid Game in the format that is desired by it's Long term and invested fanbase, will Outsell the Bright Shiny and Moving one in the Long Run. Games sell, not so much from being Uber Pretty on the shelf, but from folks running that game for other people. If it goes over well those folks go get the game and talk others into getting it. Bright candy colors will never replace the effect of a well run game from an active GM pushing it.

 

You want to crank up the Pretty Factor, save it for a Limited Edition Collectible, Numbered and Signed etc etc etc ..... Then charge whatever the heck you want for it. I've personally felt the art was so Inconsistent and downright unlikeable in more then a few cases lately (especially compared to past products) that another color run would not be a good thing.

 

A lot of folks have mentioned that "if the Core Books had Sold so well Then....." Well, Every FLGS store around here Sold Out some pretty good sized stacks, in a very bad economy. They went to get more and couldn't. Heard every excuse under the sun but they seemed to be able to get every book under the sun except HERO books, and the ones they could get weren't moving the product because they were supplemental to the product folks couldn't get. Hopefully this will change that. Either way, reservations aside looking forward to the books. Money is Waiting.

 

~Rex

[scorpionx1]

Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

Well' date=' Every FLGS store around here Sold Out some pretty good sized stacks, in a very bad economy. They went to get more and couldn't. Heard every excuse under the sun but they seemed to be able to get every book under the sun except HERO books, and the ones they could get weren't moving the product because they were supplemental to the product folks couldn't get. Hopefully this will change that. Either way, reservations aside looking forward to the books. Money is Waiting.[/quote']

 

well said. my FLGS has heaps of HERO books but i notice that none of them move. noticeably absent from the collection is 6E1.

 

got caught up in all this discussion. do we have a release date yet???